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Freight Dogs Finally a forum for those midnight prowler types who utilise the unglamorous parts of airports that many of us never get to see. Freight Dogs is for pilots and crew who operate mostly without SLF.


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Old 18th Mar 2012, 10:00   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 5
Question DC-8-71/72 F??

Question: what is a typical operating costs using a DC-8 F with the C-56 engines??
...and, will such an aircraft be allowed to be put on a European AOC and fly in/out of Europe with cargo??
...and, are there any such airctafts....like x-UPS available?.
.....any sim for such aircraft somewhere???
....and, any idea of asking price for such and aircraft or leasing price????

Thank you for any info...
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Old 18th Mar 2012, 18:14   #2 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
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Falcon,
DC8-71/73 fully compliant with Europe and noise/RVSM requirements.If you own the airplane and its on something like US register/121 cert it would cost less than a CFM B737F European registered and carry 3 times more ( with the high cost payments on B737-3/4F ) and can tanker fuel to the expensive places in Nth Africa which the little airplanes can't, this is a BIG cost saving.
There are plenty out there I think UPS had 18 with glass cockpit. There are several Sims in United States Pan Am, crews and mechanics are available but all US FAA certified, this may be a problem in Europe and elsewhere as they seem a bit uptight.
The purchase cost is low cost depends on the 4 engines CFM-56-2. Lease would be not much,you would be better to cash buy it. They are a solid "truck" and take 8 ton per overwing position. go 8 hours direct and carry 40-50ton.
4H.
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Old 18th Mar 2012, 19:19   #3 (permalink)
 
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There used to be one in Spain not long ago. Not much help sorry.
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Old 18th Mar 2012, 19:32   #4 (permalink)
bpp
 
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Several ex-DHL DC-8-70 series aircraft are in long term storage at the airport in Kingman, Arizona, USA

bpp
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Old 18th Mar 2012, 20:03   #5 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Former Cygnus Air DC-8-73F is now with Transair Cargo as 3X-GHH.

No other DC-8's are left in Europe.
EU AOC must be no problem in most EU countries.

Most DC-8-70's which are avialable are the UPS fleet stored at Roswell.

In the US Boeing has two DC-8-70's for sale/lease through AerSale.
msn 46094 and msn 46029
Both former UPS a/c. Those are the best you can get if you want an airworthy 8.
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Old 19th Mar 2012, 13:48   #6 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Norway
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DC-8-71/73 Cargo?

Thank you for your quick replys.
Got all answered already,except what you think will be a typical operating cost pr hrs of operation.
Anyone who has any knowledge of that?

Guess I can try with Trans Air Cargo.....thanks for that info.

Kind regards, Falcon86.
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 15:50   #7 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Europe
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I would say it is practically impossible to operate DC8 on EU AOC those days. Pilots, sim, maintenance etc...
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Old 22nd Mar 2012, 12:45   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: England
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I would agree. operating a DC8 even with CFM56 engines under EU ops will be a pain. Having worked for MK Airlines with there -55 and -63's they are a great airplane and I like them but are they ecconomical today?
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Old 24th Mar 2012, 08:59   #9 (permalink)
 
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Can't see much problems in operating one in the EU. Cygnus did it.

Many airlines are sending their fleet to all over the world for maintenance.
And at OST there are still some DC-8 experienced guys and hangar space.

Sim check could be done in the US.

DC-8-70 is cheap to get, cheap to operate, and parts should be no problem with many of them stored.

Biggest problem is getting a good flightcrew with many hours on the Eight and most of the competition is flying widebodies (A300,767 etc).

But I can't imagine this is a real request to start an airline.
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Old 24th Mar 2012, 20:30   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
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If they are cheap to get, cheap to operate and parts should be no problem.
Why did UPS got rid of them?
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Old 25th Mar 2012, 14:52   #11 (permalink)
 
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Because of the kind of operation of UPS.....

For charter/ad-hoc ops the DC-8 is still a good option.
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Old 25th Mar 2012, 19:46   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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ErwinS

What you telling in generic terms is a common mistake.
Sending your airplane wherever for maintenance? Fine. But how many exactly EASA Part-145 providers are there for DC8-70 and who are them? And who are the shops releasing components with EASA Form 1 for this type?

Experienced guys and hangar space? But do they have EASA certification for this type and rating still valid?

Sim check in US? Tell me which US sim for DC-8-70 is certified according to JAR STD? And are there any JAR FCL licensed SFE/TRE for this type who's license is still valid?

I can't think of any insane flight crew member who is still keeping this DC-8 rating current on JAR license, especially considering this is nearly mission impossible.

It is possible to do all of that from scratch but the cost will make the project no-go.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 19:54   #13 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
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You dont have to be from Europe to JAR approved. many AMO in the States have this approval and most shops that have FAA approval are EASA approved also.
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 12:49   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
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DC-8

Hi, if you end up leasing/buying one, let me know, i'm a current and qualified DC-8 Captain. DC-8-73 is the ideal machine.
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Old 6th Apr 2012, 02:50   #15 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Florida USA
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I see three DC8-73 operators have Australian/NZ part 129 operational and FAA 121 and they also operate in/out of Europe so why would you want a EuropeanAOC when you can use FAA and fly in/out of Europe,wet lease to an African company and fly in reverse.Presume UPSwill be flying 757s internal Europe with N numbers now TNT is gone ? How to complicate something let the Europeans get involved they will regulate themselves to death?
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Old 6th Apr 2012, 05:18   #16 (permalink)

 
Join Date: Dec 2009
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If I were operating my own commercial aircraft, European is the last registration I would want. Having said that, I've never had to be fingerprinted and "processed" by a third party in order to use a training facility in Europe! - see link below regarding non-US citizen flight training in the USA:

Airline Training Type Ratings | Learn about Pilot Training | Pan Am Academy
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Old 7th Apr 2012, 18:08   #17 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Biggest problem is getting a good flightcrew with many hours on the Eight
Practical reality suggests that it's usually the other way around: operators who pay good money and arrange pleasant working conditions experience NO shortage of qualified pilots.
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Old 5th May 2012, 05:17   #18 (permalink)
 
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UPS DC-8-71/73's were excellent airplanes. They were all converted to glass cockpits. Any of those resurrected from the desert would be a reasonable choice. The -73, with it's long wing, extra fuel and higher GW made the best freighter. The -72 has the same wing and fuel, but it is 30 feet shorter, and there aren't many around.

As far as operating costs, they burn 12K/hour. With experienced maintenance they can be a very reliable airplane. UPS went with 767-300ER's as replacements and the operating costs were less.

Simulators in the U.S are becoming a difficult proposition. No Level C's left. Pan Am's in Miami is not operational, and may not be again. There's one in Cincinnati and one in Wilmington. I don't know what happened to the UPS -71 sim (with matching glass cockpit). It was a good Level C.

I'm just a pilot, and not a bean counter, but the DC-8 has soul and character compared to what can replace it today. Too bad they're a dying breed along with the folks who flew them worldwide.

Good luck with your endeavor.
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