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Freight Dogs Finally a forum for those midnight prowler types who utilise the unglamorous parts of airports that many of us never get to see. Freight Dogs is for pilots and crew who operate mostly without SLF.

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Old 21st Jul 2008, 04:34   #61 (permalink)
 
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CRM

Quote Michael Oshshbigg:

From my experience, having an FE in the middle seat can cause problems with CRM issues.

Earl:
Wow seen some same issues in the sim with Saudia back in 2006.
Never did quite know what happened to these
Bangladeshis that had a problem with a F/E and CRM.
But they just went back home for some reason., bet they know why now!
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Old 21st Jul 2008, 10:13   #62 (permalink)
 
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freighterone

To specifically answer your question 411A the following may be helpful:

MTOW: 113,000 Lbs (51,255Kgs)
MZFW: 90,000Lbs (40,823Kgs)

Usuable fuel: 5,520 US galls.

Max Structual Payload: 30,645 Lbs (13,900Kgs)

Fuel:
Start and taxy: 300 Lbs
T/O & Initial climb: 200 Lbs
Final manoeuvre: 300 Lbs

Climb F/F: ISA + 10 5,180 PPH at MTOW

Max. Alt at MTOW: ISA + 10 21,000' (37 mins)
ISA + 20 18,000' (34 mins)

Cruise F/F: ISA + 10, MTOW & TOCW (104,750Lbs): 4,000PPH

Air NM/1,000 Lbs on cruise at TOCW 104,750Lbs: 78.5

Average descent fuel: 550 Lbs.

Holding F/F: 3,600PPH

Also the wing planks were a structual problem and needed ultra sound checks on a regular basis due to cracks occuring or existing cracks getting larger.

Good luck with the venture if it goes ahead.
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Old 21st Jul 2008, 11:12   #63 (permalink)
 
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How fast are they? I've been told 3rd hand up to 350-380kts TAS, sounds like a fun machine.
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Old 21st Jul 2008, 13:46   #64 (permalink)
 
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To wrench, the Electra is a Babe!!! I loved working on them. If you do not stay on top of them they will run away reliability wise and cause you much pain and suffering. You MUST get a survey done by by someone who knows these machines intimately or you will have problems. Due to the age of the components etc you will have many " Why the F^&ck is it doing that"? moments. They are not fire and forgets and need to be looked after 100% or the operation will suffer. You will need very good engineering staff and lots of spares.
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Old 21st Jul 2008, 14:34   #65 (permalink)
 
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Good link with some specs.
Lockheed L-188 Electra - Aero Favourites!
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Old 21st Jul 2008, 16:31   #66 (permalink)
 
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Ah, the Electra. That start up video brought it all back. But for a twist (of the dagger) of fate. I would have started my career in the right seat of one of those fabulous aircraft. As it is my memorable highlight remains taking the right seat alongside two ground Engineers as we started up and taxied out for a compass swing. A marvellous moment for a then inexperienced light aircraft pilot to be sitting on the flight deck of a four engined turboprop with all the provenance of the Electra.

They had their maintenance problems though. Many is the three engine ferry I remember. Not to mention the issue with the wings mentioned earlier.

Great aeroplane though.
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 04:00   #67 (permalink)
Saturn
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Smile 411A

Check your pms, aol mail, yahoo mail and climb350. Thanks again.
 
Old 22nd Jul 2008, 07:39   #68 (permalink)
Saturn
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Smile Merc or Merse Air, Don Deyo

Does he have a website? Thanks.
 
Old 26th Jul 2008, 08:03   #69 (permalink)
 
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The only Electras flown in the states with 2 pilot crews that I know of are actually P-3s.
Firefighting P-3s regularly fly in the US with just 2 pilots on board.
The FAA began allowing this in 1990 with 2 type rated pilots.
This rule was modified after a short time to allow only the captain to be type rated.
I flew these planes for several years with good results and did not see a need for an F.E.

4000 punds per hour is a good figure and 300 kts is the cruise speed one would expect.
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Old 27th Jul 2008, 18:51   #70 (permalink)
 
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Zantop ceased flight operations in the mid 90's except for a couple tired DC 8's, which were operated on a seperate certificate. The hanger is still there, as well as a few airframes and engines. I understand the company had a lot of spare parts, not sure if they have been liquidated yet or not.

I flew the Electra for about 8 years. Great airplane. Yes, the 5,000 the first hour and 4,000 an hour thereafter is a good estimate on fuel burn. If I remember correctly, we could put about 30,000 pounds in the back plus three hours of fuel. Or, 30,0000 pounds of fuel and 2,000 pounds of ballast in the back. Yep, thats seven hours of fuel at normal cruise.

We operated the Electras on a hub and spoke in the US, similar to a UPS operation, but hauling oversize/overweight cargo. It was also popular in Europe and we wet leased aircraft and crews to Channel Express, who was and may still be an Electra operator. Have flown this bird in Europe for UPS, TNT, and Channel. Amera (Emera?) Aire, out of Vienna also still uses L188's, so ya might give them a call.

No, ya need 3 to fly this plane. Anyone operating without FE's is nuts, as he is the busiest person aboard.

ONA? Man, that goes back a ways. I started driving this bird back in 87 and that was way before then.

Let me know if ya need any more info. I have an old Zantop flight manual, if I can find it. And ten years of war stories....ha ha ha.

Captain Willie
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Old 27th Jul 2008, 19:01   #71 (permalink)
 
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Busy doing what exactly?? A lot of F/E's made a huge thing of playing with oil cooler flaps, when if you just leave them faired on the ground and at 20% once airborne you can just leave them there. Or maybe busy accidentally switching off engines instead of switching on engine anti ice...?
I respect your opinion about needing the F/E if you haven't seen two crew. Believe me though, its great, its more enjoyable, its easier and when you get the chance, if the F/E will let you (!) just try some 2 crew operation and see for yourself how it works.
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Old 27th Jul 2008, 21:01   #72 (permalink)
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Three versus two, an endless debate....although, having said this, I have always found the professional Flight Engineer a very valuable asset...BAR NONE.

Younger guys...perhaps don't have a clue.
Not trying to judge one way or t'other, just my experience, which stretches over thirty five years with the PFE.
Don't leave base without one....is my motto, and that is how we will run our proposed operation.
411A will be the flight ops director, and will have it NO other way.
Period.
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Old 27th Jul 2008, 21:16   #73 (permalink)
 
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Amerer Air sold their L188's a little while ago, they only have a Fokker 27 and a 146 (saw they added that recently) now. Operating for TNT I think.
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Old 27th Jul 2008, 23:30   #74 (permalink)
 
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Capt Willie 1.
Channel retired their last Electra in 2002 or 3 I think.
The only European operator still with the old gals is Atlantic Cargo Airlines of Coventry UK.

Did I fly with you in the early days of Channex Electra's in 1990 or 91?
The only Zantop Willie I can think of is Bill Slocombe. Is that you?
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Old 28th Jul 2008, 03:46   #75 (permalink)
 
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I think we should move with modern technology, and yes the F/E is finished. Next to go will be one of you experts, then the other one will be gone..The L188C will be long gone also. Next thing you know there will be a predator technology. Goodbye to you all, you will cut your own throat's to save your own lives.Then guess what, it will be an engineer sitting in that seat on the ground.
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Old 28th Jul 2008, 05:33   #76 (permalink)
 
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Electra L-188

The person that knows where and how much and has the spare parts for the electra Is Don Deyo Jax Fla. 904-786-7200. There are two weights on the electra, depending on which gear it has on it. So when you are figureing the weights you have two different ones to figure on. I have to disagree with the person that said two seats are better than three. Having over 10,000 hrs turbo prop time. The P-3 fire bomber that went down had two seats. For the fuel burn and the realiability and weight carried, there is no other aircraft in its class tat can come close to it. Once again the man that can answer any question on the Electra is Don Deyo.
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Old 28th Jul 2008, 11:08   #77 (permalink)
 
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"Not trying to judge one way or t'other, just my experience, which stretches over thirty five years with the PFE."

And your experience of either 2 or 3 Electra operations is how extensive??
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Old 28th Jul 2008, 12:38   #78 (permalink)


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Why argue? Can't we all just get along?

I can't claim to have all the experience since I'm fairly recent on the Mighty Electra as an engineer working for the UK based cargo airline.

So far I've had the pleasure of sitting along their aircraft a fair few times now but all I end up doing is yawning because the mod they did has taken all the necesity out of having a FE onboard. And to be honest the difference in quality of maintenance you can get out of a travel weary FE compared to a well rested engineer waiting on the ground is not to be underappreciated.

And I've even had time to see my first apparent (it was gear box) engine failure and the pilots didn't get particularly upset about it. Very well managed indeed.

Sure, the FE fills a purpose but to say that it's dangerous to fly without one seems, to me, to be a stretch.

I'm very curious to see what happens with this new venture though. The Electra is a lovely aircraft and deserves to be in the sky, not retired.

That's my 2 cents...
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Old 28th Jul 2008, 16:58   #79 (permalink)
 
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Jenny B

The three electra's came on line and grew to 9 electras and after comming from CAM Air which had 9 electra's and being the DO of Training and Cheif FE for two Airlines with Electra's and over 10,000 hrs both P-3/ Electra, I think I think I am qualified.
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Old 28th Jul 2008, 18:08   #80 (permalink)
 
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phantom32068

Think you'll find i was quoting 411A, if you actually read my message.

And Chief F/E? So no obvious experience of Lockheed Electra 2 crew operations then, would be something akin to Turkeys voting for Christmas to expect you to find anything good about a 2 crew operation.

The P3 firebomber that came down had a 2 crew operation? Care to mention all the crashes that the Electra has had with 3 crew?
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