Pilots win retirement age appeal
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Bases V Principles V Imperatives
That bases can save $$$$ and make our CMP and CX efficient is obvious. Jeppesen have told CX loudly............
That there are two types of pilots in CX, being those with principles versus those without, only wanting, whining, bitching, crying, scheming and backstabbing to achieve their own end, is factually obvious to CX, to our collective demise!
That CX have an ability to connect the very few dots it takes to play those principled against those that aren't, is what this TRAIN SET is all about ladies and gentlemen........ terms used loosely, apply as applicable.
Resolve, Calm, Priniples, Knowledge and yet more Resolve, are the qualities that see these two principled Kiwis working till 65 on a NZ contract, endorsed by their Supreme Court!
If you must have a basing NOW..........go join QF or BA or LH or EZ or NZ, they're all employing or will be shortly.
Knowledge is power.
Knowledge combined with principles, applied calmly..... WOW, I caught myself dreaming.
That there are two types of pilots in CX, being those with principles versus those without, only wanting, whining, bitching, crying, scheming and backstabbing to achieve their own end, is factually obvious to CX, to our collective demise!
That CX have an ability to connect the very few dots it takes to play those principled against those that aren't, is what this TRAIN SET is all about ladies and gentlemen........ terms used loosely, apply as applicable.
Resolve, Calm, Priniples, Knowledge and yet more Resolve, are the qualities that see these two principled Kiwis working till 65 on a NZ contract, endorsed by their Supreme Court!
If you must have a basing NOW..........go join QF or BA or LH or EZ or NZ, they're all employing or will be shortly.
Knowledge is power.
Knowledge combined with principles, applied calmly..... WOW, I caught myself dreaming.
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Xwingldg, take heed of what some of the senior pilots in this airline are saying. Continue to agree and sign to lesser conditions and you'll only have yourself to blame. Nothing is more annoying than hearing people on a lesser CoS complain when they signed after reading the contract they were offered. Nobody put a gun to your head and you chose to come to Cathay on your own accord - you were not invited.
Clearly you haven't been here long enough.
Shep / Traf- well said
Clearly you haven't been here long enough.
Shep / Traf- well said
Corrigin,
Well what's happening here then? These guys signed a contract saying they would retire at 55 then went to court and complained about it. No one "put a gun to their head" as you said. To top it off this decision will f### anyone else wanting a base.
So they have done exactly what you are talking about.
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Curtain rod, If slavery is the best analogy you can come up with and it's more than just sheer coincidence your using it in reference to the NZ base then it will probably be a blessing when the base closes. Wouldn't you agree? I hope the NZ based guys who don't choose redundancy get in to hkg under the current ARAPA before it changes.
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Great.... now we have to put up with the kiwi's for longer.... as if they weren't weird enough already... Now they are going be weird and OLD!.... aaaghhh! Just die already!
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Curtain rod, If slavery is the best analogy you can come up with and it's more than just sheer coincidence your using it in reference to the NZ base then it will probably be a blessing when the base closes. Wouldn't you agree? I hope the NZ based guys who don't choose redundancy get in to hkg under the current ARAPA before it changes.
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I actually DO wonder. CX could easily claim some BS about type changes, base administration expenses, and/or the new CMP says XYZ. Even if none of it is true, we know that won't stop them from claiming it. They used the type change argument in Paris even though the whole world knew it wasn't why the base was closing. That's the problem with lying so much... Even when you tell the truth, nobody believes you anymore.
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I actually DO wonder. CX could easily claim some BS about type changes, base administration expenses, and/or the new CMP says XYZ. Even if none of it is true, we know that won't stop them from claiming it. They used the type change argument in Paris even though the whole world knew it wasn't why the base was closing. That's the problem with lying so much... Even when you tell the truth, nobody believes you anymore.
One thing I think that is often overlooked is that a carrier (especially one foreign to the host nation) operates within that nation at the pleasure of it--and to its and the host nations' mutual advantage. And there IS competition for operational slots within many of those countries--often between competing carriers who are based in the same place.
So I believe it's best to be well behaved and do the right, safe, and ethical things. Lest that nation kick you out and banish you completely.
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I'd conjecture at the end of the day it would depend on how much clout and credibility you'd have in the jurisdiction you wish to operate considering the overall situation. And on your track record there. And on how much the host nation wishes you to continue to operate there (this could involve politics as well--even to the extent of your continuing to be an employer within the jurisdiction and as such contributing to the overall economy and tax base).
One thing I think that is often overlooked is that a carrier (especially one foreign to the host nation) operates within that nation at the pleasure of it--and to its and the host nations' mutual advantage. And there IS competition for operational slots within many of those countries--often between competing carriers who are based in the same place.
So I believe it's best to be well behaved and do the right, safe, and ethical things. Lest that nation kick you out and banish you completely.
One thing I think that is often overlooked is that a carrier (especially one foreign to the host nation) operates within that nation at the pleasure of it--and to its and the host nations' mutual advantage. And there IS competition for operational slots within many of those countries--often between competing carriers who are based in the same place.
So I believe it's best to be well behaved and do the right, safe, and ethical things. Lest that nation kick you out and banish you completely.
Don't over-emphasize your own worth. We are small potatoes relative to the big picture which is international trade. It would be easy to rationalize this using modern utilitarianism over your "fundamental rights" as an employee. The only real chance would be to get the story into the press and hope it goes viral, but that won't happen either because no one feels sorry for pilots making well over 6 figures.
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Those are nice, feel good sentiments, but we both know that's not how it works in big business and politics. If the US restricts or bans CX flying, HK would do the same to US carriers. We all know that can't happen. A few jobs here and there mean nothing compared to big business and the traveling public.
Don't over-emphasize your own worth. We are small potatoes relative to the big picture which is international trade. It would be easy to rationalize this using modern utilitarianism over your "fundamental rights" as an employee. The only real chance would be to get the story into the press and hope it goes viral, but that won't happen either because no one feels sorry for pilots making well over 6 figures.
Don't over-emphasize your own worth. We are small potatoes relative to the big picture which is international trade. It would be easy to rationalize this using modern utilitarianism over your "fundamental rights" as an employee. The only real chance would be to get the story into the press and hope it goes viral, but that won't happen either because no one feels sorry for pilots making well over 6 figures.
Anyway, maybe that's how it might have been ten or fifteen years ago. But there are ALOT of carriers now flying in and out of HK (many of whom are in competition and many of whom might want slots) and even more waiting in the wings. And I really doubt Bejing would much care about slots lost by one carrier and filled by another (in fact this might even further their agendas)--no matter where they might be heading. So.....no dice.
Kind of interesting how unprotected markets (on all sides) and capitalism levels the playing fields and lifts all boats (both of worker bees AND larger entities). Especially with a dose of Oliver Wendell Holmes' philosophy when it comes to Collective Bargaining and the relationship between capital and labour.
As such it'd probably behoove everyone to play nice.
Last edited by Shep69; 17th Sep 2017 at 22:56.
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If the US restricts or bans CX flying, HK would do the same to US carriers.
The odds of the above happening is highly unlikely so it's all a moot point.
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Closing a base to evade compliance with a law in a nation in which they wish to continue to operate (and in the immediate aftermath of a judgment against them). Wonder how THAT would turn out.
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Corrigin,
Well what's happening here then? These guys signed a contract saying they would retire at 55 then went to court and complained about it. No one "put a gun to their head" as you said. To top it off this decision will f### anyone else wanting a base.
So they have done exactly what you are talking about.
Well what's happening here then? These guys signed a contract saying they would retire at 55 then went to court and complained about it. No one "put a gun to their head" as you said. To top it off this decision will f### anyone else wanting a base.
So they have done exactly what you are talking about.
Xwindldg,
Stop reading section 36 of their contract and flick all the way back to the start. You don't have to read beyond section 2. Application of the Law. At all times the contract must be interpreted and comply with the law and employment ordinance and this will override all other agreements. NZ's age discrimination laws override section 36 retirement age.
These 2 gentlemen were offered a contract til 65 but didn't believe they had to sign it as their current contract gave them an infinite retirement age (or until they lose their license/medical). As it tuns out they were correct.
Hang around here long enough and you too will be demanding that CX comply with Section 2 of your contract too. Or are you donating your monthly SHP payments back to the company?
No?
Thought not.
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The EU views contracts and employment law in a similar way to the NZ Courts:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-r...-idUSKCN1BP0VM
The guts of it is a company can't choose the best place for them to sign a contract and then ignore the laws of the land where the employees are effectively employed.
How much has CX spent fighting employees and trying to avoid first world laws?
Why not spend the money on quality advice and set things up properly from the start?
First world employment laws are there to protect employer and employee. A good employer has nothing to fear from them. Time for a change!
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-r...-idUSKCN1BP0VM
The guts of it is a company can't choose the best place for them to sign a contract and then ignore the laws of the land where the employees are effectively employed.
How much has CX spent fighting employees and trying to avoid first world laws?
Why not spend the money on quality advice and set things up properly from the start?
First world employment laws are there to protect employer and employee. A good employer has nothing to fear from them. Time for a change!
