KA, anyone listening?

[cxorcist]

Lowkoon,

Thank you for that. Exactly as I suspected. The cards CX is playing are like a pair of sixes, but they are flaunting them like they are a straight or a flush. CX will be back to the table because they need a deal, but they want to soften up the battlefield with this artillery first.

Don't fall for it. Stay the course. Resolve to execute CC to the very best of your ability. Call in unfit when you are fatigued. Don't even consider joining training. This fight is far from over. Our position is every bit as strong as it was two months ago with the exception being that we telegraphed precisely the split amongst the membership.

DEFOs were coming either way because the current lot of NJers just doesn't cut it for the long term. HKPA back dating can and will be reinstated. They need higher HKPA to attract better DEFOs anyways. The aircraft being parked (747s) were predictable and planned regardless of the vote. Aircraft going to KA (1 or 2?) were also planned to replace their aweful old machines. A350s are coming as scheduled now. In short, nothing has changed. It is all window dressing.

Stay the course!!!

[Weary traveller]

Anotherday, I made zero reference to 'hope' nor did relate my comment to anything associated with a business plan. I merely point out that some previous comments on this thread that insinuated a similar safety standard between KA and some of our neighbors north of here because of a similar accident/incident rate is a false comparison.

[Dan Winterland]

KA doesn't need its trainers to quit, we need them to train KA guys to pass KA command courses and get KA moving forward again.

Good luck with that.

[Weary traveller]

Another day, I haven't quoted any facts, just a general opinion, but I "can" base that opinion on credible feedback from trusted friends working amongst those that I refer to right now. At a variety of different operators too so, yes, I can with conviction lump them all together from what I'm hearing. I stand by my comment relating to luck. Read the context of what I said again before you take issue. Also, have a think about how the CX A330 fuel contamination incident might have played out had it occurred with one of the multitude of airlines running around on luck. An Air Asia A320 ending up in the sea because of a miss handled abnormality. An ATR spearing in because of a mishandled engine failure. I'm under no allusion that we're the last of the Mohicans with regard to packages in this industry and that the pressure is on airlines of our kind to reduce costs in order to compete with the 'new order'. From a business model I completely agree with you but be be under no illusion, some of what goes on at the pointy end of so many of our regional neighbours' aircraft would make you shudder. Fact.

[Gnadenburg]

What a strange post Green Dragon.

Sim checks are single pilot, if you have had only modest CRM training or crafted LOFT management training, from previous airlines. If you have those skills use them. For a guy coming up to an 18 month command there may not have been time within the system to train those soft skills - and it will be open to debate in many quarters if that training is available at KA at all ?

Why would KA Captains go to EK? The deals being cut are with HKA. The thread is about F/O's not upgrading? Of which, ideas do seem very stale. There needs to be some creativity and charisma ! Plenty could be done to fix what many are saying is now broken.

[Enuff Said]

Ok, I am feeling compelled to write.
Re Dragonair Command Training.
I have survived the aviaition industry for almost 33 years..I have also endured the Dragonair system having held a previous Jet command..I am so tired hearing about how difficult the current set of 'Nit picking trainers 'make the whole process..I grew up with respect for the trainers and the position.Every day I am reminded about the sense of entitlement from my fellow aviator in the right seat.
Generally they have no respect for me or the job.
They are training to a standard to allow a two crew operation with a new Captain..Yes , it is hard to swallow, but as a new Captain with Dragonair you have met the minimum standard to be let loose with a new cadet just as much as he or she has been let loose to operate with a min standard Captain.
For info, I put myself under more pressure than any Dragonair Training Captain during my own Training.
To My friend Mr A370 who has converted from the 330, might I say that this is the easiest ride you could ever get from Dragon.
Whilst I may not agree with the standards, I will stand firm and state that the Standardisation amongst the crew is second to none..I truley believe that there are no real real surprises in the way that people try to operate.If there are differences, good CRM skills with challenge and response will lead to a resolution of the conflict at hand.
I joined the airline where commands were running at 18 mths.I also joined that airline where every day guys were talking about scenarios and the what if question. Many a Dragon pilot came from a very experienced training and checking background and it shows with our determination to get the job done.
The fact now that the new generation of pilot sees some sense of entitlement is discouraging in the least.
I am not a trainer in Dragonair...I do not have any motive but to state the facts as I see it.
I also take offense to the comment that a Captain with 18 mths experience cannot be a good trainer.
Training is all about bringing out the best of the people you are with.
Transitioning from a F/O position is all about being given the opportunity to prove that you can be a good captain..The difference between a good and great captain is about motivation.
Dragon does not suffer fools..If you do not know how to fly or configure a vor approach during your command training you WILL BE SCRUBBED..
I do not have a problem with this..And do you know what...Basically I get to do everything that I would normally do..I do not live in fear of the CVR Or FDAP..I also realise that if I have done something questionable..the phone call will come,,I will explain my actions, there will be reason at the other end , good for me or good for them.. I have no reason to doubt at the moment.. But hey, what would I know
I am just a line driver..enuff said ..

[giggerty]

The standard of trainers at KA is similar to anywhere else. Some good, some not so good, some big picture guys others caught up in the minutiae. I don't see that as the problem. The problem is the command upgrade programme.

How much time and effort went into command upgrades over the last 4 months for a total of 0% pass rate? Vast amounts of resources for zero return. That doesn't make economic sense. No wonder there's rumblings from the planning department. If some of that effort had of been used to highlight a candidates deficiencies and train them to overcome them, rather than scrubbing them and sending them to the back of the queue, then maybe more new highly trained commanders will be on line.

The system in place at the moment is tough, very tough. The candidates who get through do it through hard work and grim determination mostly. However it is very unforgiving. Even some of the best candidates have failed and had to have a second or even third go at it. However if the system was more flexible and focused on "training" to eliminate deficiencies then strong candidates will get through first time ( and weak candidates will still get scrubbed). To achieve this there will have to be a change of mindset in the training department. All of the trainers got their commands under the old system. Some old dogs may have to learn some new tricks. Inviting some third parties in from other respected airlines to get fresh ideas can't hurt. KA has been very insular on command training for a long time.

Green Dragon that was quite a strange post. There are a few problems at KA but there's not a stampede for the door. You can see that by how few threads on this forum are KA related. CX has 99% of the threads here and far more industrial problems. Even then there is no rush to join Emirates from CX I can see. Perhaps that is part of the problem and CX won't act until people start leaving. You might be calling the wrong group pussies.

[Gnadenburg]

If you do not know how to fly or configure a vor approach during your command training you WILL BE SCRUBBED.

My advice to the young guys going through is to take the crowd out of the game and fly the VOR approach raw data and manual thrust. Easier than the 120s briefing on the push-a-button, managed approach, with OEB limitations to boot.

But seriously, enuffsaid, aren't the demographics different now? Are we seeing ex-captains go through the process or First Officers from legacy type backgrounds adept with all the modern proficiencies?

You've taken a swipe at the newer generation and fair enough. But their timidity with the aircraft for example, which partly represents the lack of the bull being taken by the horns on a command course, is a systemic and cultural failure seemingly acknowledged now by the management. It's a tough issue to reverse.

Giggerty mentions another issue being the command upgrade program. Delivery hasn't been addressed but yes, the program itself generates a strong emotional reaction to stress and peer judgement that is probably not realistic to a consistent performance outcome from similar candidates due varying schemas. I saw this on arrival at KA. One highly experienced and respected aviator from a previous airline described his CT5 LOFT as a blur. He wasn't alone.

After all that investment and training, CT5 should be a kick-ass event yet highly experienced aviators were flying by the seat of their pants. I'd argue for every failure, what about the guys that just scrape through?

If you look in-house to our own incidents, did CT prepare our commanders with an authoritative knowledge and proficiency of the contemporary issues facing airline pilots? Or did our events indicate a seat of the pants blur and lack of proactivity or even reactivity of our training? Think high altitude handling, pumps and cockpit coordination, managed approach/CFIT, decision making whether on one engine, min fuel or having duty time expired.

I hope our leadership not caught with their pants down with a probable accountability and commercial necessity we haven't seen before. Lowering the command standard would invite risks that would probably cruelly play out on an airline that has viewed itself very seriously in the standards department for some time.

If I subscribe to the retired manager's logic that the high failure rate was representative of the elite capabilities of commanders at KA, I take my hat off to my contemporary colleagues. You must be the best in the business if we are at 0 % ! Chickens have come home to roost.

[oriental flyer]

Krone I'm glad that all your friends are taking their hate off to you because clearly they no longer carry that superfluous piece of uniform called a Hat
Just kidding okay

[Gnadenburg]

a370

Ahlan wa Salan.

I have some experience in the Mid East region and met some very capable airline instructor pilots I'm indebted to. The term coined was the Rise of the Sycophant. Why were pilots who had NO business to be trainers in an airline with ab-intio cadet programs and rapid commands taking over the training departments?


- It's about the money. Not just the miserly training allowance but the rosters could be manipulated toward OT without management awareness. Bloggs needs a Cairo return to learn the books instead of a day in the Gulf doing high sector op's.

I'm surprised by how many line pilots, training pilots and management pilots are obsessed with money. It could be an expat issue too ? So whereas training was traditionally a selfless task, with Trg Capts bidding low hour trips with high sectors and inefficient layovers to cover book work, there was the emergence of the trainer who saw financial advantage as a priority to training delivery.


- It validates one's own mediocrity. This attracts the FCOM buereucrats. Where instead of SOP boundaries being operated within to deliver an airliner between A and B, safely, efficiently and with good morale, the pilot's inability to actually fly the aircraft with a high level of efficiency, and often due their own performance insecurities, SOP's could be micro-analysed to hide one's own inabilities.


- There were no unions in the Middle East so the TRG Dept was an easier avenue into management. You may have great attributes for management but you are a damaging trainer/checker.


- It's about another level of job security. The club mentality is human nature. Trainers checking other trainers was different to trainers checking line guys; though the sycophant will pick his target. So a Captain that is attracted to training in part or wholly, to protect his skin, will not have the capability to deliver high quality training to inexperienced pilots.


- The sycophant trainer is very easy to manage compared to the old school trainer who has an extensive depth of knowledge. So when a training program is cut to the bone, the old school trainers will resist until numbers are against them and they standout like black sheep in a field of Yes men.


Some airlines in the Middle East missed windows of expansion due slower command promotion. Quality of trainers affected pass rates if the command training system didn't evolve beyond one relying on good delivery. Tragically, a commercial drive, inevitably led to standards being dropped amongst other factors. I'm guessing the newer, rapidly expanding airlines of the Middle East, adjusted and tweaked their upgrade programs to deliver Captains along with other factors such as DEC's.


The final chapter perhaps, is when management becomes flooded with pilots who have said Yes all the way up the greasy poll to supervisory positions. I wasn't in the Middle East long enough to observe the impact of having trainers motivated for the wrong reason, though it's probably an industry wide complication.

It would be a mistake not to recognize the many, mostly or some very good trainers, depending on who you work for. It doesn't help if the system failing in your airline with high failure rates. This ain't the trainer, it's the system ! Try training a pilot who is stressed to the eyeballs by the system ! Anyways, a great counter to sycophants is to honestly celebrate and acknowledge the good ones. Ask a cadet who was their best trainer. Tell the trainer, don't be jaded by the system, and an acknowledgement is probably going to benefit many.