CX256 Diversion to UAAA
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Flap(s?) 10
I get you, but you are aware of how many people/cultures reading this are of the literal persuasion? Please can you clarify to the world out there your position of irony otherwise people WILL genuinely believe that you are admitting and owning up to the fallacy of "spoiled and lazy..... gravy train..... button pushers etc", instead of postulating the obvious opposite to the truth to dramatically demonstrate a point. I second what I believe to be your opinion, but it worries me to see this out there without clarification (for us Aussies
).
Cheers Mate, Best - White None
I get you, but you are aware of how many people/cultures reading this are of the literal persuasion? Please can you clarify to the world out there your position of irony otherwise people WILL genuinely believe that you are admitting and owning up to the fallacy of "spoiled and lazy..... gravy train..... button pushers etc", instead of postulating the obvious opposite to the truth to dramatically demonstrate a point. I second what I believe to be your opinion, but it worries me to see this out there without clarification (for us Aussies
). Cheers Mate, Best - White None
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777 Picture!!
The story is in the Daily Mail. They've chosen a great file pic!
Baby girl dies on Cathay Pacific Airways flight from London to Hong Kong | Daily Mail Online
Baby girl dies on Cathay Pacific Airways flight from London to Hong Kong | Daily Mail Online
Sad, very sad and I feel deep sympathy for the parents of the child that DIED.......
Any comments relating to cc and the crews actions should take a back seat to the reasons for the diversion. I for one am glad I wasn't anywhere near that Aircraft.
Under the circumstances I don't judge anyone that day, and neither should you.
There's a time and a place for pointing fingers, puffing up chests regarding this 3 crew operation trial and this ain't it.
This just shows us as insensitive buffoons only interested in one thing....
One word.
Tacky.
We are better than this.
Any comments relating to cc and the crews actions should take a back seat to the reasons for the diversion. I for one am glad I wasn't anywhere near that Aircraft.
Under the circumstances I don't judge anyone that day, and neither should you.
There's a time and a place for pointing fingers, puffing up chests regarding this 3 crew operation trial and this ain't it.
This just shows us as insensitive buffoons only interested in one thing....
One word.
Tacky.
We are better than this.
Join Date: Aug 2014
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What have we become?
To dissect FDP's and limitations and argue whether the 'cause' is not being helped, in this case, is just shameful.
What would you really do if you had the ability to fly on? Stick to your principles and keep everyone for a night in Almaty or try and help a grieving couple who have lost their child get somewhere they need to be?
I hope none of you are parents; moreso, i hope none of you have lost an infant in their early days of life. It lives with you and scars you forever!
To dissect FDP's and limitations and argue whether the 'cause' is not being helped, in this case, is just shameful.
What would you really do if you had the ability to fly on? Stick to your principles and keep everyone for a night in Almaty or try and help a grieving couple who have lost their child get somewhere they need to be?
I hope none of you are parents; moreso, i hope none of you have lost an infant in their early days of life. It lives with you and scars you forever!
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Interesting, two points.
First up, a death occurred. Standard international protocol is note the position it happened if inflight. In this case it would appear the baby was alive at touchdown so that would be classed as a death in Kazakstan. Again, protocol requires an autopsy from the authorities certifying the death, Kazakstan. Most unusual to be able to depart with the body onboard. Cause of death has to be determined by the authority where the death occurred. This knowledge comes from experience and exposure to the requirements over 26+ years of doing this. Only once because a special case situation, which was put to the authorities, was a body allowed to stay onboard for further flight and that took several hours of negotiation at senior Government level and a crew change.
Secondly, the FTL calculations and justifications for a second sector to HKG are wrong and ultimately this WILL be classed as an illegal operation. The crew should quite rightly be worried. My understanding is one crew member has already contacted the AOA as he is now very nervous about the situation. What on earth was wrong with either saying "under the circumstances it would inappropriate to continue to HKG" or "we have sufficient duty time available to proceed to XXX" (possibly PEK) were another crew could have been sent expeditiously to recover the operation?
In the previous year I've come across the situation were I've been asked would I consider discretion and the reply "under the circumstances it would inappropriate to continue" has terminated the conversation and we have taken appropriate rest before continuing. It is NOT difficult! Never has it been question. The company also know the rules.
First up, a death occurred. Standard international protocol is note the position it happened if inflight. In this case it would appear the baby was alive at touchdown so that would be classed as a death in Kazakstan. Again, protocol requires an autopsy from the authorities certifying the death, Kazakstan. Most unusual to be able to depart with the body onboard. Cause of death has to be determined by the authority where the death occurred. This knowledge comes from experience and exposure to the requirements over 26+ years of doing this. Only once because a special case situation, which was put to the authorities, was a body allowed to stay onboard for further flight and that took several hours of negotiation at senior Government level and a crew change.
Secondly, the FTL calculations and justifications for a second sector to HKG are wrong and ultimately this WILL be classed as an illegal operation. The crew should quite rightly be worried. My understanding is one crew member has already contacted the AOA as he is now very nervous about the situation. What on earth was wrong with either saying "under the circumstances it would inappropriate to continue to HKG" or "we have sufficient duty time available to proceed to XXX" (possibly PEK) were another crew could have been sent expeditiously to recover the operation?
In the previous year I've come across the situation were I've been asked would I consider discretion and the reply "under the circumstances it would inappropriate to continue" has terminated the conversation and we have taken appropriate rest before continuing. It is NOT difficult! Never has it been question. The company also know the rules.
Join Date: May 2008
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Balus, do you really think that Russia or China are an appropriate place to dump of a recently deceased baby and her grieving parents for an autopsy?... Or would you, if it were legal and at all possible, make every effort to support them, and help them in their devastated state?
...I know I would do everything in my power, and stretch myself as far as legally possible, to make sure that precious baby girl was treated with love and respect.
If you have ever, even for 1 minute gone into discretion (for whatever reason), or have been given a shared rest on a sector where rest was predicated on burning out a relief crew member on paper - and still choose to criticize, (and everyone else here, this counts for you too!) - I call you hypocrites. This is not about CC. This is about doing what we do, and being human, for each other.
...I know I would do everything in my power, and stretch myself as far as legally possible, to make sure that precious baby girl was treated with love and respect.
If you have ever, even for 1 minute gone into discretion (for whatever reason), or have been given a shared rest on a sector where rest was predicated on burning out a relief crew member on paper - and still choose to criticize, (and everyone else here, this counts for you too!) - I call you hypocrites. This is not about CC. This is about doing what we do, and being human, for each other.
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I think we all agree we would do as much as we could possibly do to make the best of this very sad day but in the end you can't just go and break the AFTLS limits! Then to go and break past Commanders discretion too???That is the law!! Didn't a KA Capt just do the same thing not that long ago? If you break the AFTLS in any regular country you get violated and lose your license, not sure what the outcome was for the KA Capt involved.
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Anotherbusdriver. I hear you and agree completely if the Captain had a choice. I was curious how the exit from Almaty was executed. It is normal for the authorities to prohibit the transportation of a body without the appropriate paperwork which includes a postmortem. The Captain and the airline normally have no say in the matter.
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Balus, do you really think that Russia or China are an appropriate place to dump of a recently deceased baby and her grieving parents for an autopsy?
Going to PEK instead of HKG wouldn't have made this poor baby's last trip any slower or more painful for her parents.
As Balus said, many questions remain unanswered. In fact, the whole thing seems fishier as it unravels.
And no, pulling all the stops, including those which safeguard the safety of the remaining 300 pax, is not a heroic thing to do in the circumstances.
As much as I would not want to spend a second in the shoes of these poor parents, professionalism trumps emotions. For better, and for worse.
Isn't that what command courses are all about?
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Morton's Fork: A choice between two dreadfully unpleasant alternatives (in other words, a horrible dilemma). I know which choice I would make in this situation though, and I hold my colleagues in high enough esteem to believe that they too would make the same choice.
Is that not enough?
Is that not enough?
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Ok, time to calm down everyone. Yes, the principle of 3-man discretion is something we need to focus on and enforce as unworkable in 'most' cases. In this case, the necessity of dealing with an unusual and difficult situation, on balance, seems to favour the decision made. Let's accept we weren't there, and that the correct decision was probably made. Let's move onto the next event, one that will probably be more black and white than this.
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I think the problem is here of a crew going over their Commanders Discretion Limits which are limits to protect the other 300 people onboard. That is what most people here have a problem with!
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Thats it in a nutshell.
Who could do what, take baby where, grieving parents, countries legalities etc. the very sadness of a loss of a baby in itself Does not excuse you as a professional with the care of 300 other people ....
Your the commander and your responsibility isnt just one family and their loss its everyone elses as well.
So yeah fly on to your legal limit....goto PEK and your done your best. But to exceed those limits your just throwing away your responsibility....and though heartless it may seem the death cant be undone by you exceeding those limits.
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Many look for a black or white answer in a gray world.
Given the fact that crews and passengers were not allowed to deplane in UAAA, what were the options? Sit on an aircraft for another 18 hours waiting for a rescue?
Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do and other restrictions, guidelines or common practices have to take a backseat to common sense. Most in the left seat would understand this dilemma.
Given the fact that crews and passengers were not allowed to deplane in UAAA, what were the options? Sit on an aircraft for another 18 hours waiting for a rescue?
Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do and other restrictions, guidelines or common practices have to take a backseat to common sense. Most in the left seat would understand this dilemma.