Such Pussies
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Dan Buster,
We don't stick together, for decades each pilot in CX does what's best for them. Many years ago the company said commands are open to everyone who's been at least a day in the company but it's on local housing in HKG or F/O paysale as a skipper on a base.
Hundreds jumped at it to get in the left seat, irrelevant of the money the company was offering, including some who went straight from S/O to skipper. So much for everyone bleating currently that the HKPA isn't enough. Of course it's enough, back then with the blessing of the AOA, we all showed it was.
If the company offered future commands being offered with the proviso that you have to go into training once you're checked out left seat, do you think many would apply in spite of the AOA?
We don't stick together, for decades each pilot in CX does what's best for them. Many years ago the company said commands are open to everyone who's been at least a day in the company but it's on local housing in HKG or F/O paysale as a skipper on a base.
Hundreds jumped at it to get in the left seat, irrelevant of the money the company was offering, including some who went straight from S/O to skipper. So much for everyone bleating currently that the HKPA isn't enough. Of course it's enough, back then with the blessing of the AOA, we all showed it was.
If the company offered future commands being offered with the proviso that you have to go into training once you're checked out left seat, do you think many would apply in spite of the AOA?
Join Date: Mar 2015
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As an industry we must get rid of seniority to get any power to improve conditions.
I simply can't afford to loose my job (kids, mortgage, loan repayments…) so I won't risk my job. But, if I could join another airline at the same level or higher then everything would change.
If we could move between companies, the companies would have to compete to attract staff. At the moment they only have to attract S/Os and retain them (bond/forgivable loan) for long enough so the golden handcuffs have them locked in.
It is very simple. We are no different to lawyers, doctors and other professions where one's value is a combination of qualification and experience.
I simply can't afford to loose my job (kids, mortgage, loan repayments…) so I won't risk my job. But, if I could join another airline at the same level or higher then everything would change.
If we could move between companies, the companies would have to compete to attract staff. At the moment they only have to attract S/Os and retain them (bond/forgivable loan) for long enough so the golden handcuffs have them locked in.
It is very simple. We are no different to lawyers, doctors and other professions where one's value is a combination of qualification and experience.
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Golf anyone?
controlledrest Quote :- As an industry we must get rid of seniority to get any power to improve conditions."
In which case you had better learn to play golf or join some other "clubs" frequented by the management.
Ar*ecreeping will help get promotion, but competition will be fierce.
How are your trainers selected? (Not all, admittedly).
FOUR!!!!!
In which case you had better learn to play golf or join some other "clubs" frequented by the management.
Ar*ecreeping will help get promotion, but competition will be fierce.
How are your trainers selected? (Not all, admittedly).
FOUR!!!!!
Join Date: Mar 2015
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So let me get this straight, every profession on the planet requires you to join a club frequented by management for promotion?
No it doesn't, yes there are arse lickers in all professions but the world's professions function perfectly well without seniority.
Our T&Cs will continue to be driven down as long as seniority means experience won't walk out the door when he/she has had enough.
It's simple economics, joining the bottom of a new seniority list could be more than a 50% pay cut, if they cut our pay or don't raise it say 20% due to inflation, you're still better off staying unfortunately.
No it doesn't, yes there are arse lickers in all professions but the world's professions function perfectly well without seniority.
Our T&Cs will continue to be driven down as long as seniority means experience won't walk out the door when he/she has had enough.
It's simple economics, joining the bottom of a new seniority list could be more than a 50% pay cut, if they cut our pay or don't raise it say 20% due to inflation, you're still better off staying unfortunately.
Join Date: Mar 2015
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There would be less arse crawling if we didn't have seniority.
If you weren't scared of having your whole career coming to a halt due to a run in with a checker or the management you could speak your mind. If a company keeps on treating you like ****, change companies.
At the moment all we can do is bitch and moan on pprune and take the pineapple.
If you weren't scared of having your whole career coming to a halt due to a run in with a checker or the management you could speak your mind. If a company keeps on treating you like ****, change companies.
At the moment all we can do is bitch and moan on pprune and take the pineapple.
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How do you decide who will be the Captain, F/O or S/O?
How would you ever get promoted? (Direct entry Captains joining your Airline for the job you thought you would get!
)
How would you ever get promoted? (Direct entry Captains joining your Airline for the job you thought you would get!
)
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A golfer or a gofer?
Tankengine,
You seem to understand how things work, others don't seem to have given it much thought.
Me? I am am old enough to speak from experience - the wrong side of it, the golfer got the job.
You seem to understand how things work, others don't seem to have given it much thought.
Me? I am am old enough to speak from experience - the wrong side of it, the golfer got the job.
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One would be promoted the same way as in any other industry, a heart surgeon didn't start out in that role, a partner in a law firm didn't start out as a partner same for CEOs etc, however if any of them does not like the t&c's at their current employer they can leave and don't have to start back as an intern or resident. My doctor was horrified when I explained seniority lists to him.
As for me if I could join another airline at current rank or even one step below back at home I would in a heart beat. for me to start back at the bottom would mean a 66% pay drop and our company knows it. Yet if they knew that there cpts or senior FOs could leave and get jobs elsewhere at similar ranks I am certain the negotiations would be much more beneficial to us. The catch as I see it is we need to get rid of seniority industry wide, even if the unions wanted it I would bet the airlines don't want it.
As for me if I could join another airline at current rank or even one step below back at home I would in a heart beat. for me to start back at the bottom would mean a 66% pay drop and our company knows it. Yet if they knew that there cpts or senior FOs could leave and get jobs elsewhere at similar ranks I am certain the negotiations would be much more beneficial to us. The catch as I see it is we need to get rid of seniority industry wide, even if the unions wanted it I would bet the airlines don't want it.
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a heart surgeon didn't start out in that role, a partner in a law firm didn't start out as a partner same for CEOs etc
When we were assessed by the recruiters at an airline, were we assessed and employed as future captains. If they didn't think you were suitable for command, then you wouldn't have been offered the job.
There are a few extra command requirements such as total hours, or hours in company aircraft, but if every FO who's been in the company more than 2 years has the ability/personality/experience/whatever to get on a command course, then who do you offer it to? The simple answer is seniority.
Not only does seniority negate the brown nose effect, but in our job we need to be open and share information and experience with each other, and learn form others' mistakes as well as our own. If there's no seniority protecting promotion, then people will stop sharing the good information, and safety is degraded.
Join Date: Mar 2015
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there's no seniority protecting promotion, then people will stop sharing the good information, and safety is degraded.
You can't apply the way people behave as a result of living in a seniority system to a system without it, you simply have to look at other professions.
A doctor goes to medical school and one day is a senior doctor/surgeon/head of dept/chief of staff or whatever and he may have stayed local or moved from hospital to hospital or wherever depending on his own circumstances, he may have simply choose to remain in small town practice.
A lawyer goes to law school and one day is a senior lawyer/partner/barrister/judge or whatever and he may have stayed local or moved from firm to firm or wherever depending on his own circumstances.
Pilot, flight school and one day senior captain/fleet manager/DFO or F/O whatever and he may have stayed local or moved from airline to airline or wherever depending on his own circumstances.
Seniority (experience not # on a list) would exist like it does in all professions but you're right a **** doctor might never be chief of surgery no matter how much arse he was licking or however long he stays at said hospital.
So except for pilots those profession pay to keep you, allowing experience to walk out the door with a month notice isn't good for business.
Apply a seniority system to any of the above careers and watch the degradation begin as they sell their soul to join the bottom of the list.
Change Captain to Senior pilot and F/O to pilot, saying you'll never become a senior pilot without a seniority system simply isn't true.
Last edited by Avinthenews; 25th Jun 2015 at 16:37.
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How do you decide who will be the Captain, F/O or S/O?
How would you ever get promoted? (Direct entry Captains joining your Airline for the job you thought you would get!)
How would you ever get promoted? (Direct entry Captains joining your Airline for the job you thought you would get!)
How would you ever get promoted? (Direct entry doctors joining your hospital for the job you thought you would get!)
Sounds like doctors need to fight for a seniority list, oh hang on they are respected for their experience and qualifications!
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Beta Light
No Seniority
Ask the guys at Jet* Asia how the "pay for command training" is working out for them. The ones with principles that is not prepared to do it that is.
No Seniority
Ask the guys at Jet* Asia how the "pay for command training" is working out for them. The ones with principles that is not prepared to do it that is.
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The company could base promotion on who worked the most g days, or who participated in a flash mob, or who signed onto yammer, or simply sell it to the highest bidder.
The seniority system is far from perfect, but it really is the only fair, transparent system we have.
The seniority system is far from perfect, but it really is the only fair, transparent system we have.
Why do banks, law firms, hospitals not work this way? Because they would be absolute crap and have the dumbest most useless employees in short time, losing money, losing cases, and killing people.
Seniority causes people to try and buck the system and airlines profit from it.
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That's applying the way people behave today as a result of being in a seniority system to being out of it.
Why do banks, law firms, hospitals not work this way? Because they would be absolute crap and have the dumbest most useless employees in short time, losing money, losing cases, and killing people.
Seniority causes people to try and buck the system and airlines profit from it.
Why do banks, law firms, hospitals not work this way? Because they would be absolute crap and have the dumbest most useless employees in short time, losing money, losing cases, and killing people.
Seniority causes people to try and buck the system and airlines profit from it.
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I agree, It's the best one we've got.
Even better, how about just ONE, world-wide seniority list? Impossible to create I'm sure, but if it existed, then you could easily bid for whichever vacant post was next. It could be an FO on a BA380, or a skipper on an RJ in your favourite town, or a LH737 skipper in Berlin.
I know, I'm dreaming.
Even better, how about just ONE, world-wide seniority list? Impossible to create I'm sure, but if it existed, then you could easily bid for whichever vacant post was next. It could be an FO on a BA380, or a skipper on an RJ in your favourite town, or a LH737 skipper in Berlin.
I know, I'm dreaming.
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Yes, you're dreaming. There is only ONE way to advance the quality of our existence at CX. That is finally standing up to what the management are doing to every aspect of our careers. That needs to be backed up by one simple principle: any one pilot victimised by the company means that the rest of us don't go to work until he/she is reinstated. We should have done that with the 49ers, and our failure to support our colleagues properly at that time has led to our management being quite certain that they can keep slashing without any real reaction from us. In fact, what I just suggested is the one resolute action that they are actually frightened about us committing to. We need to almost bring the airline to a stop, and then show unity in protecting any and all members with our collective support. If we did that, they would be pretty powerless to counter our action. And yes, now i'm dreaming also. 
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Yes, you're dreaming. There is only ONE way to advance the quality of our existence at CX. That is finally standing up to what the management are doing to every aspect of our careers. That needs to be backed up by one simple principle: any one pilot victimised by the company means that the rest of us don't go to work until he/she is reinstated. We should have done that with the 49ers, and our failure to support our colleagues properly at that time has led to our management being quite certain that they can keep slashing without any real reaction from us. In fact, what I just suggested is the one resolute action that they are actually frightened about us committing to. We need to almost bring the airline to a stop, and then show unity in protecting any and all members with our collective support. If we did that, they would be pretty powerless to counter our action. And yes, now i'm dreaming also.
$5K AUD a month, no paid leave, no retirement fund contribution was put forward by the winner. It was approx 1/3 what Skippy and airNZ was paying at the time.
Going off that I'd say most would do a CX command on a C scale JFO package to get the LHS hours.
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Well said CR. The selfish amongst us are almost as big an enemy and threat as our management. The latest volunteers for C and T are right at the top of that list. The contempt I feel for them is greater than I am feeling against management. I expect to be attacked by the Swire dogs, but attacked by my own professional colleagues?, outrageous and unacceptable. Know that every one of you have a stain on your back that will never fade, and I hope that most of us will remind them of it each and every time we see their cockroach like presence around the system. We are fighting probably the most important battle that our careers have ever seen, and a few of you are so desperate that you would sell out every principle and all your colleagues for something you could have obtained in a few months regardless. A clear conscience is the best pillow. You lot will never sleep well again. Disgusted.
Last edited by Trafalgar; 26th Jun 2015 at 06:21.