Noise Lobby -Airline Bashing

[ShotOne]

As if aviation didn't face enough problems already, the noise lobby seem to be stepping up the pressure against us. It wouldn't be so bad if these were aimed at rducing noise levels for all types of transport -but it is just aviation which is seen as a milk cow by everyone. Yes aircraft do make some noise but they are vastly quiter than they were 20 years ago. Can the road or rail industries say the same thing?

I have just received a "survey" from an MP asking to support noise restrictions at a UK airport. Has anyone ever received any such survey regarding road or rail noise?

[The Guvnor]

Heavy industry makes the most noise - I reckon we should get up a few petitions to close it down to protect the environment.

Oops - it seems most of it already has been! :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

[flybhx]

Whenever the noise lobby come out it always seems that they fail to mention that the "local residents" who are complaining about the noise have actually been there less time than the Airport i.e. they moved there by choice

[mainfrog2]

I used to live near the railway line in Horley. The trains going past used to rattle the pictures on the wall but when I moved there the railway didn't sneak up over night. These things really get your goat don't they.

It's a bit like people moving to the countryside and complaining about the noise the cows make. Tough s**t.

[ShotOne]

The trouble is that the NIMBYs (Not in my back yard) are very well organised. Just two or three individuals can generate hundreds of noise complaints. This has convinced some MPs that they can win votes by airline bashing. These guys are threatening our livelihood. We MUST fight them.

[SZD]

These people make me SO MAD! If they don't like to sound of aircraft taking off/landing then why, WHY, did they buy a house right next to an Airport. ARE THEY THICK? Surely they must have noticed that 747 gliding onto finals at LHR and the almost continuous precesion of 737s and 145s at MAN while they were viewing the house. If they don't want to listen to the sound of aircraft all day then they should move to Sheffield! ;)

They obviously don't realise the damage they are doing to an industry already in deep trouble. :mad:

[ShotOne]

These guys simply don't care what danmage they do, or even if we all lose our jobs.

Cologne-Bonn airport was effectively closed as a freight hub by the noise l;obby costing thousands of jobs. I see you're from Manchester. Have you had your survey from MP George Osborne? Some of his proposals would hit hard -especially a ban on night flights which would severely limit the airport as a charter airline base

[SZD]

I havn't seen this survey yet but I would like to see what is in it. From what I've heard it makes uncomfortable reading for anyone in the Airline Industry.

[747FOCAL]

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of Goerge Osborne's noise survey? Plus any others?

Thanks! :)

[Mare]

The situation is worse in Munich, try to fly left or right of the track to avoid the wake turbulence of the 757(of course German airline) that was cleared for take off as soon as it reached the holding point, and you get reported.So next time fly in the wake dont avoid,DONT TURN you are going to wake-up at7pm some civilians!!Did you hear the latest??Greenpeace is protesting for the trees that Swissair flight crashed in!!! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[DX Wombat]

I live under one of the flight paths for LBA. I realise we don't get the really big aircraft - Concorde no longer visits, but I can never understand what the problem is. As has been previously stated the airports have been there a long time and are not tiny little things easily hidden from view when trying to sell ones house to an unsuspecting customer. Now, before anyone tells me that I should try LHR for noise I would just like to say that earlier in the year I took my caravan down to London, specifically the Crystal Palace site. This site is right next to the transmitter and on the flightpath. I watched many aicraft turning over the transmitter low enough for me to be able to see the company logos. I fully expected to be woken by the 0530 flights from Oz and other such places (caravans are not known for their excellent sound insulation) but was not even mildly disturbed. There was far more noise from the local traffic! I feel much of the criticism is unjust and that aircraft are just being used as scapegoats for those who realise they made a bad choice (for them) of housing.

[ShotOne]

What annoys me about these noise whiners is that it is ONLY aviation that they have picked as a soft target. If you live near an airport there will be an aircraft noise hotline in the phone book. What about a rail or road noise hotline?

If anyone wants to write to their MP the address is House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

[DX Wombat]

I tried to post this earlier but just as I pressed "send" I got a screen saying that the moderaters had all cleared off to the pub AGAIN!!! The did that last night as well. So who is keeping an eye on them? Anyway, to return to the task before they clear off again. MPs are also contactable by email via the House of Commons website : http:www.parliament.uk/commons/hsecom.htm It will make a change for them to get email from the "Pro-aircraft" lobby. They are listed by surname not constituency.

[G.Khan]

And don't forget, people who are deemed to live within the noise sensitive area of some major airports get free double glazing and sound proofing!!!
Some of the noise lobby members are certainly trying to get their houses done up on the cheap by getting the proscribed areas enlarged. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: G.Khan ]</p>

[Young Paul]

I am not justifying the noise lobby, but ....
over Crystal Palace, airliners are at idle thrust, descending through about 4500 feet. Not quite the same as approach thrust in the last four or five miles.

The Boeing website had very useful information on the environmental impact - <a href="http://www.boeing.com/commercial/value/quieter.html" target="_blank">here</a> is a link of interest, hopefully, although there were a series of leaflets they once produced which were excellent resources.

[max_cont]

I’ve got an idea. Why don’t we get the local council’s to slap a compulsory purchase order on all the local residential buildings around the airports? (Those that are particularly noisy of course)… because they are so affected by noise, they would only be worth about £50 each. Then we could bulldoze all the really crappy ones and then sell the nice ones to aviation workers for about £1000. (A very handsome profit)

We could even convert the larger buildings to cheap accommodation for crews etc, who are too tired to drive home.

The displaced whingers we could relocate to some nice cheap inner city council accommodation, then they could all compare notes about the noise from their neighbour’s and the traffic.

I think I feel a letter to my MP coming on.

<img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: max_cont ]</p>

[sky9]

If it helps, here is George Osborne’s website.

[url]http://www.conservatives.com/PersonShow.cfm?PersonID=4586[url]

I have been in contact with him over his misconceived views on aviation and track keeping on departure at Manchester.

He tells me that some of the pilots in his Tatton (Knutsford)Constituency say that pilots don’t keep to the SID’s.

[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: sky9 ]</p>

[RegionalFlyer]

Pilots dobbing in other pilots over a noise argument, that's peer intervention taken to the limit! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Do these Victor Meldrew types ever fly abroad on their "Bucket(bouquet <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ) Tours Ltd." holiday? Grow up, airports are a fact of modern life, live with it or move away. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[AtlPax]

Here in Atlanta we have a radio talk show host (Neil Boortz)(also a holder of a PPL), who regularly rants about a group of "anti-airport activists" around his home field (PDK), called the "PDK Watch."

Here's a link where he discusses them:
<a href="http://www.boortz.com/Boortzbits.htm#PDKWatch" target="_blank">Link to Boortz.com</a>

What I call classic NIMBYism.

[edited to get the link working]

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: AtlPax ]

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: AtlPax ]</p>

[ShotOne]

Yes these Meldrew types DO fly -but they still complain -even in one published case filing a complaint about the very aircraft they have travelled on themselves.

Two years ago noise complaints jumped dramatically at Manchester -shock horror in all the local papers... even when it was later revealed that over 1000 complaints came from just THREE individuals.

[DX Wombat]

Exile, I am aware that the aircraft are considerably higher over CP than they are at Kew, but there is a distinct lack of soundproofing on my caravan. A sparrow taking an early morning stroll across the roof sounds like an emu with clogs on. I was just trying to make the point that the noise is not as bad as is claimed and nowhere near as bad as I had anticipated having heard all the horror stories about the aircraft noise levels in London. Before you ask - I have been to Kew.

[ShotOne]

There will be no such noise problems at Manchester soon. George Osborne is demanding;

"A ban on all night flights,

Heavy fines for any a/c which deviates from flight path,

A ban on any airline such as Virgin or PIA whose planes, after a fair warning, continue to break noise limits"

(These are direct quotes from his latest newsletter)

[sky9]

Unfortunately George Osborne MP knows absolutely nothing about aviation. What makes it worse is that he isn’t prepared to learn before he spouts his opinions. His email address is on his website. Take the opportunity to put him right. How about inviting him to a Manchester Bash Danny?

[DX Wombat]

Even better, get him in a flight sim and show him exactly what can happen! I'm sure someone could arrange an interesting and informative incident. Mind you, could he possibly be angling for a trip in a simulator and using noise as an excuse? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[411A]

The USA has organisations such as the Air Transport Association, National Business Aviation Association, AOPA, National Air Carrier Association etc to lobby on behalf of airlines and business/private aircraft operators. Does the UK not have anyone available for this task?

[Ignition Override]

US airlines (and others) have spent lots of money on engines, in order to comply with Stage 3 noise regs.

There are too many wealthy people in the MSP Twin Cities (not to mention the overabundance of radically left-wing feminist attorneys, who secretly run that sorry state), who either are ignorant of the fact or simply want to use pressure on the Airport Authority and FAA, which results in westerly departures having to comply with the (very non-standard) close-in noise abatement procedure: NADP. This procedure applies to communities such as MSP, (PBI) West Palm Beach, (HPN) White Plains, NY: wealthy areas with too many wealthy SOBs who have the arrogance and ignorance to lean on their politicians (or somehow compensate, indirectly), who lean on the FAA, in order to require us to use entirely different power-reduction/clean-up procedures. Only such pompous types are the cause of this procedure, because we already have Stage 3 engines.

Otherwise, we would use these procedures at all airports which are not in the Special Airport category. Without local "inducements", possibly artificially low real estate options ("early word" on foreclosures...), pilots would not have the extra, highly non-standard bull***t during an already very busy period (anti-icing on, radio switching, altitude call-outs etc).

An FO claimed that a developer is now building houses at the new Denver airport.

[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</p>

[David Hurst]

I haven't been to DFW for many years but when it was built many around 30 years ago it was out in open country half way between Dallas and Fort Worth, well away from complainers. I read somewhere recently that there are now housing developments surrounding the place and people are complaining.
Would any of our US readers be able to satisfy my curiosity?

[ShotOne]

It is interesting to hear a US view on this subject. In general I get the impression that the noise lobby in the USA has less of a stranglehold on our industry than it does in europe. At many of our airports it is THE main limiting factor on development. Do you have any tips for us?

[DoleBoy]

Copy of Email to Mr Osborne M.P

Dear Sir,
I have just spent several tens of thousands of pounds training to become an airline pilot, this has been a lifelong ambition of mine probably similar to your passion for politics, I am led to believe that you are involving yourself with a campaign to stop night flights (leading to more day flights and just shifting the problem and more aircraft in the same airspace = more chance of an accident), levy fines on aircraft deviating from set flight paths (increased airfares and reduced pax figures = unemployed aviation workers) and ban noisy aircraft from Manchester Airport (What percentage are overly noisy).

I would just like to point out that if your support of the noise lobbyist's proves fruitful in damaging an already fragile industry post Sept 11th, then I for one shall be extremely disappointed and angry, may I point out that once the ball starts rolling it will prove difficult if not impossible to stop, should we close all our regional airports now and everyone travels from london heathrow not an ideal situation I am sure you will agree.

While I sympathise with people whom are affected by so called noise pollution they should bear in mind two things, firstly flying is a very quick, safe and convenient way to travel while conducting business or going on holiday, secondly even though an airport may have a large amount of arrivals and departures the noise is transitory, and is probably less annoying than a fleet of lawnmowers on sunny sunday afternoon or loud music and noisy teenagers all of which are a fact of life and people live with.

Finally I would like to point out that the result of any successful lobbying of parliament Will I repeat Will lead to further job losses, and if this is the outcome of your support for these anti-aviation groups, then I am sure that I and several thousand of my colleagues, will be queing up at conservative headquarters demanding jobs as civil servants and party officials, or a full refund from conservative party coffers for the cost of our self-funded training.

Yours fathfully

<img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[ 02 January 2002: Message edited by: DoleBoy ]</p>

[Deathstar]

The sheer density of some people never ceases to amaze me.

As a small child, I still remember the days when I was taken as a "treat" to watch the aircraft t/o and land at Ringway Airport (as it was then called), from the airport hotel pub (which is still there and still used by high-tech annoraks for the same purpose!).

Heald Green housing estate didn't exist.
Knutsford was a virtually unheard of village, known only by virtue of the fact that it had a service station on the M6 named after it.
Aircraft were MUCH, MUCH noisier.
There were no noise abatement procedures.

Aircraft are now MUCH quieter and noise abatement sids prevent low overflight of residential areas (most) of the time.
So what has happened in the last 35 years??

Answer: 10,000 (plus) new residents have intentionally moved into the local area of their own volition, (most of them on the final approach path to rwy24R) KNOWING that there was a big airport there, and have spent the last 10 years complaining about those nasty aeroplanes!!

Did they think an airport was just a big place for parking fire engines??

[Young Paul]

Doleboy.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments, I would strongly urge you - and anybody else who wishes to write letters to officialdom - to:

<ul type="square"> use short sentences; use good grammar; use vocabulary accurately.
[/list]

Don't give people the opportunity to ignore what you say because you aren't saying it properly. Have an impact!

If you'd provided an e-mail address, I would have sent this personally rather than in public.

[ShotOne]

Well done, doleboy -it only needs a few hundred other unemployed (and employed) pilots to do the same to get our point over. Oh another bit of advice. No matter how angry you are, don't swear or write anything that could by any stretch be termed abusive. If you do they don't have to respond.

[ShotOne]

...but having said that, not many pilots ARE lobbying their MP's, and as a result we are being comrehensively defeated in this battle.

Yesterdays press reported a ruling from Strasbourg that homeowners have had their human rights infringed by aircraft noise and will be able to claim compensation which will add up to £2 billion!

Why hasn't this been applied to every other mode of transport which makes noise? More importantly, what about my human right to have a job??

[fireflybob]

I agree with virtually everything that has been said here. I live near EMA and the noise lobby has become quite hysterical.

On a lighter note they decided to build a new housing estate a few years ago on the approach to Nottingham airfield where I do some light aircraft flying, despite strenuous objections from the airfield operators at the inquiry. It has now become common practice to commence the climbing turn at circa 200 ft to keep the natives happy - "normal" aviation practice? Not long after someone moved into a new house they rang the flying club to complain about the noise. The Chief Instructor asked them whether they were going to sue their solicitor for not advising them that the house was on the approach to an active airfield! We had not further conmplaints from this individual.

Finally here is an excellent website if you want to contact your local MP - you just enter your postcode and it finds your MP and the system will send a fax to him all for free - suggest we all lobby our local MPs appropriately.

<a href="http://www.faxyourmp.com/" target="_blank">Fax Your MP</a>

[mutt]

I really don’t see what all the fuss is about, so what if they close airports at night, what impact is it going to have?


Mutt <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[fireflybob]

Mutt, I think the repercussions of such action would be considerable.

No or negligible night operation means that other movements have to be crammed in during the hours when a curfew does not apply. Ever seen LGW/LHR when the night ban ceases in the morning and all the resultant congestion? Not to mention the waste of fuel with aircraft having to hold either in the air or on the ground with APU running etc.

If you are in business you want your shop open as many hours as possible. Whilst night operation may not be popular with aircrew (me included) it means that the aircraft can complete more rotations and/or be positioned strategically for flights later on in the day.

If the mamby pamby social do-gooders succeed in closing the airports at night then what's next? Even more complicated departure/arrival procedures with all the ramifications for flight safety? Just how far do you take this sort of thing?

I have every sympathy for those affected by aircraft noise but if you go and live near an airport please do not complain. Aircraft noise is far less of a problem than it was even a few years ago with modern equipment etc and the noise generated on the roads in many areas is a far bigger issue and little seems to be done about that.

[max_cont]

fireflybob I agree, but the real loser would be the customer.

If you imposed a night ban on all operations, it would mean fewer flights. That would mean less revenue for the companies. That would mean you would have to increase the price of the seats, to recover the loss. That would mean that Mr & Mrs Smith couldn’t afford to take the kids to Disney World this year…or any year for that matter. The privileged few would be the only ones to travel by air. Cheap holidays would vanish. The reduced aircraft movements each year, would mean less airport staff would be needed, so unemployment would rise.

Even from my simplistic position it is obvious that the only viable solution to the noise problem is to stop building bloody houses next to airports. Engines are getting quieter, but I suspect that because of the compensation culture that is beginning to emerge, you will never satisfy the antis.

[mutt]

Fireflybob

I would imagine that the average person really doesn’t care about the early morning congestion at LHR/LGW or even flight safety. He is worried about his own little piece of territory. Or in the case of this MP, I would guess that he is trying to keep himself in the news!

So what would Mr Bloggs lose if his local airport banned night flights?

(As a side note, if you are thinking about flight safety Vs Noise, look at the departure for Orange County Airport in LA.)


max_cont

I didn’t think that Ryanair operated that many nighttime flights? If I am correct that would go against your point of having to charge more for daytime flights, Mr and Mrs Bloggs should still be able to afford their summer holidays.
= = = = = = = = =

We really do need to come up with better reasons for wanting to continue flying at night!

Mutt <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[max_cont]

Mutt, Ryanair don’t operate to the USA or any longhaul destination. Ryanair carry hardly any holiday type passengers and operate short-range aircraft only.

I may be wrong, but you seem to have very little knowledge about aircraft movements and the type of operators that use the airports. I suggest you do a little research to enlighten yourself.

Perhaps if the antis had actually bothered to do a little research into the impact that the airport was going to have on their brand new house, it would save a lot of heartache…but then there would be no chance of easy money.

[E cam]

Don't worry: We have yet to field our secret weapon......BALPA!!!

[ShotOne]

What all the fuss is about, Mutt, is that some of us could lose our jobs over this.

Night flights may not be vital to some scheduled airlines but charter airlines have to fly their aircraft round the clock to compete. aside from that, some long haul flights become untenable and in the event of any delay or diversion, a ban on night flights can make recovering the schedule next to impossible.

[mutt]

There is a battle going on which the noise lobbyists, are winning. You only have to look at some of the major European airports to see this. For example the EPNdB level set by BRU for night operations is totally unrealistic, I understand that this will actually end up in a court action lead by DHL. Then we have CDG, they have set a nighttime noise level up to 8 Decibels lower than stage 3 with a diminishing quota of aircraft allowed to operate above this level.

In the UK you presently have nighttime quotas for LHR that were recently contested in the European courts and ruled to be an infringement on civil liberties. LHR also has policies of alternating runways, supplying double-glazing and constant descent approaches, all of which are intended to reduce noise pollution.

Now you have a politician who is complaining about Manchester and the only objections offered on this board relate to losing airline jobs and cheap holidays, is this enough? Why has no one actually stated what types of items move through airports at night, how much of the local infrastructure relies on getting airfreight, mail, newspapers, bank checks etc etc.

You have got to let this guy know just how much of an economic impact his planned actions are going to have!

Mutt <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Caslance]

But where do these NIMBYs go for their hols? Do they walk there?

Can they, in fact, walk on water? If so, then this could be the greatest threat that the industry has faced in it's entire existence!

Seriously, there's no getting away from the equation "mass transport = noise". <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[boeingbus2002]

I think all those who campaigned to say they deserve a decent nights sleep are correct! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Surely we all deserve that right. In that case...shouldn't those folks who live near motorways, railways should also campaign for these to be closed at night?
We wouldnt have any mail in the mornings, newspapers etc. Roads would become more congested as they would only be able to be used during the day.
Also emergency personel,those from Gas companies, electric companies who work throughout the night would also be able enjoy a decent nights sleep! We would have no police, emergency cover, no electricity or gas at night, yet still, at least we would ALL get a decent nights sleep! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[sanjosebaz]

Fact remains that NIMBYs chose to move into a house near an airport. In most cases, the airport was there way before they moved in. And the housing os no doubt cheaper as a result.

Anyway, with the possible exception of the rapid pointy thing, which flies infrequently anyway, planes are much quieter these days. Hell, I've got wheel marks in the roof from Tornado's buzzing Hexham, but I would never complain about them. NIMBYs are tossers. 'Nuff said.

[SZD]

These people just don't care about anybody else but themselves. So long as they can get a good nights sleep thats all they are bothered about. It dosen't matter to them that pilots, cabin crew, ops staff, dispatchers, loaders, catering staff, fuelers, engineers, Passenger handling staff, cargo agents etc etc could all lose their jobs and unfortunately we have politicans who are stupid enough to jump on the band wagon and give these people a public voice.

I just wonder if they will have the nerve to complain when they are unable to fly off to malaga at 0600 because the airport is closed due to them. (They should be made to wear NIMBY badges so checkin staff can send them to Malaga and their bags to Islamabad :) )I can just imagine the announcement on a flight that is off schedule and misses the night time curfew.

"ladies and gentlemen, we are sorry to inform you that we have to divert to the middle of nowhere due to Mr Williams at No.32 style road being in bed. We apologise for any inconvenience"

As I've said before, these people make me soooo mad <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[boss man]

If I move next door to a !!!!! factory then I expect it to smell a bit, of course as an industry we should be reasonable A/C are quieter and will continue to get so.

[ShotOne]

But why is there no pressure for quieter trains or heavy goods vehicles or noise absorbent road surfaces? For most of the population, surface transport causes far more disturbance than air travel does. Aircraft are MUCH quieter than they were 20 years ago.

Some of the protesters are simply out to make an easy buck. The trouble is that our industry is a soft target.