Those "bloody" slow 767's on international long-haul!

[Flight Detent]

Yes, I know they are somewhat more fuel efficient, but hell, they bloody well should be, they cost us and countless others in the 747's heaps of fuel having to stay low, or having to slow down to something less than MRC, which causes AOA's to go to high and make us use more fuel.. .I've been doing the MiddleEast to SE Asia route a lot lately, and seem to 'run into' one on just about every flight!. .And you know that the Indian ATC will not do anything constructive to try and fix the problem, that's been the case for many years.. .I constantly hear multiple aircraft being slowed or not allowed to climb to use their most fuel efficient cruise altitude, because there is ONE 767 cruising at M.80, or, if they really speed up, to M.82, this is rubbish!. .We have to continually cart extra fuel to allow for these 'road-blocks', yet the offending 767 usually say to ATC that they need to stay 'in the way' because they need to maintain LRC to make their destination - what about us?. .This problem is not only confined to this route, of course, but with the Indian ATC 'system', it will continue to be a problem.. .The other day, we were at the holding point, prior to t/o, right behind a 767, going out on the same airway, and on the same route clearance as us, so we requested priority ahead for t/o, to get ahead, even though the 767 has a significantly better climb performance, because, in part, because we have to carry that extra fuel, and the ATC did not really understand what we were on about, thought we were just trying to simply 'get ahead' for the sake of it!. .As the old saying goes, it's hard to fly with the eagles when you have to deal with turkeys! (or something!). .comments?. .Cheers.

[HotDog]

It's even worse to be stuck behind an Airbus!

[fadec_primary_channel]

What type ? Because the A330 does a pretty decent job. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[Christopher James]

A340s!!

[joebanana]

Those Jumbos are soooooo big and ever so fast. Takes a special kind of pilot, if you know what I mean!

[romeowiz]

I agree, Joe Banana, everytime we saddle up our Citation-X we have to hit the breaks in the air to slow down from M.92 because of that big Boeing roadblocks ahead!

[Eff Oh]

The B767 cant go much faster than M0.82. It is almost barber pole. So do you want them to fly on the overspeed?? If you know they are there allow for the lower level, and/or the lower speed, and carry extra fuel!! Oh, and GET A LIFE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[Knold]

This is life! Someone is faster and someone is slower.. .For me .78 is normal so I'm irritated when stuck behind a 146. But that's the way it is. Sometimes you can get around it, other times you'll just have to live with it.. .. .Surely you can't suggest that everyone should get 747's? Maybe it's your aircraft that is too fast for the altitude you're flying at?. .Don't get me wrong, my company has 747 and I like them.. .What do you suggest we do about it?. .. .BTW, Stop calling me Shirly! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[faq]

Have a brake, have a Kit Kat!

[NigelOnDraft]

The A340 might be slow, but when I flew it, the only thing we overtook (LH wise) was the 767.... .. .NoD

[Dan Winterland]

Hey Joe, has any one told you recently that the 744 is such a big aeroplane <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Desk Driver]

I think a few of you missed the point.. .. .Would'nt it be nice if flights were planned so 76's & 74's could be assigned different flight levels throughout the route. The 74's can speed along at bat out of hell pace without caring the extra fuel to allow for other slower acft and 76's can dawdle along at their own pace taking in the scenery.. .. .Would'nt it be nice.......... .Not gonna happen though!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[clipstone]

And another level and later departure for the A340

[Knold]

Sure it would be nice but I presume that the 76' drivers want to stay at an optimum level as well...

[Captain Eicas]

Flight Detent,. .. .On behalf of the B767 community I offer our profound apologies for inconveniencing you so terribly. I only wish we could all fly the “BIG, FAST and HARD” wonderjet that you so eloquently describe – I bet the girls just love you. No need to buy a Porche I suppose ?. .. .As a matter of interest, I spent 2 hours stuck below your BIG BEAST least night waiting to get climb to FL410 because some lard arsed 747 was “too heavy” to climb above FL330 and the speed difference (us .82 him .85) did not give 10 minutes seperation in Indian airspace. Unlike you, I chose to sit back, relax and enjoy the flight – it’s not my fuel and at least the B767 can carry loads extra.. .. .Finally, on the subject of fuel – if you ever mature enough to get into the LHS you may well have to make some strategic fuel decisions. Until then I respectfully suggest you keep your THROBBING MONSTER stories for Tracey behind the bar in the Six Bells.. .. .Cheers, Eicas. (“Captain Eicas” to the likes of you.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[Polar_stereographic]

Just as well Concorde does not come into play here.

[polzin]

Why Not ? The Concorde is running short of fuel again and poor old FD is stuck in a holding pattern having another cup of coffee and making $3 a minute. Just shows us again how unfair life is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[flyblue]

Good Heavens! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[Captain Eicas]

Before I go I thought I'd try a little experiment....... .. .Eff Oh states the B767 barbers pole is "close to .82". So here we go...... .. .The MMO of a B767 is .86. .. .Christ, Flight Detent definately has something here - my little member has just grown 2 whole inches. Thanks FD.. .. .Cheers, Eicas.

[CaptainSquelch]

Isn't lifa fabulously simple? The overtaking aircraft has to give way.. .. .So what can you do?. .1) descent to a lower level. .2) climb to a higher level. .3) try to arrange a new route.. .. .The last option is certainly the best one. It gives you something to do on these long long loooong flights. Take out the charts, discuss all the options with the entire crew, write down the airway numbers, check the notams if these routes are open, decide on the best one and start bargaining with ATC.. .Have fun. .Sq

[wonderbusdriver]

Maybe its not you, maybe its the rest of the herd.... .. .Sorry, that the rest of the world flies anything between 0.80 and 0.83 and gets into the way of the only true aircraft.. .. .Admit it: You are ca. 5ft tall, have a mustache and have your hat on ALL the time.

[LAVDUMP]

The worst is to get behind a Fokker 70/100 or a Dornier 328Jet - very slow and seem to create an enormous traffic jam in the Northeast USA.... .. .Those Dornier 328Jets (Dojos) are like mosquitos in the Northeast - they're everywhere........... .. .I think assigning slower aircraft to lower altitudes is smart. Overall, there should be an understanding among pilots flying the slower aircraft that they need to get out of the way - it's like driving in the States - slow traffic should stick to the right lane and let the faster traffic pass on the left. It's COMMON SENSE..... .. .Cheers

[GlueBall]

I will take a lower altitude, but I will not slow to less than: M.84 or 320 KIAS in cruise, because I don't like flying slow, "off the step" at high deck angle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[Loc-out]

Flight Detent. .. .Well, who made you king?. .. .In case you weren't aware, there are much faster A/C, and bigger A/C, for that matter, than your "big fast A/C". It's all relative, old boy.

[G.Khan]

The NATS system seems to work very well and accommodates aircraft of varying performance.. .Why not place a similar system over the area, say, between the western edge of the Kuala Lumpa FIR and the eastern edge of the Muscat FIR, (or the next radar controlled airspace for the more northerly routes). Dedicated east and westbound tracks would go a long way towards improving the current situation. . .. .Re-planning your route when airborne is not likely to meet with a lot of success in Indian airspace, IMHO.

[NigelOnDraft]

Captain Eicas . .. .&lt;&lt;Eff Oh states the B767 barbers pole is "close to .82". So here we go...... .The MMO of a B767 is .86&gt;&gt;. .. .An FAA N- reg maybe... But our UK 767s (at least the Nigel ones) have a damn great red line at .82! Rumours BA (or whoever) "would not pay" for certifying beyond this.... .. .Our autothrottles are definitely programmed for .86, since they thing nothing of going straight past .82 and into the managers' interview if we are reading the paper a little too closely.... .. .NoD

[NigelOnDraft]

Actually - I've even got the book out.... .. .For us Mmo = M0.84. .. .However, I'm sure the red needle is less than that..... .. .NoD

[SkyGuy]

I want to fly a big fast aeroplane...erm like a big 747 wow i should be so lucky.. .. .You boring ball bag <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="redface.gif" />

[LimeyAK]

I don't know about you speed demons out there, but you must be on salary or grossly overpaid.. .I get paid by the hour to push tin through the same airspace, let em' go up, let em' slow down/ go down, my kid needs new shoes.. .. .Just ease her back to LRC (no fuel loss or appreciable time loss in the classic) relax on that fat wallet and finish the bloody crossword.. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

[sanket_patel]

Geez Detent, if they pi$$ you off so much, just quit and I'll be happy to take the job <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . And besides, it's a lot better than colliding into another a/c <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

[SOPS]

I only get to cruise at 0.8. From now on I think I will just stay on the ground untill all those really big planes have finished all their flying, wouldn't like to get in the way of the big boys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[TowerDog]

Meh thinks a succesfull wind-up is in progress <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Captain Eicas]

Tower Dog,. .. .I think you could right there - but since Flight Detent is a co - pilot with Air Atlanta he must have a large chip on his shoulder.After all he’s spending his nights flogging a knackered old 747-200 on Haj flights from Saudi to the jungles of SE Asia. You’ve probably heard him – he’s the one getting radar vectors from Muscat because he’s 20 miles off track at the FIR boundary. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .Flight Detent,. .. .Here's a question for you - What's a cheese board ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Cheers, Eicas.. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 06:08: Message edited by: Captain Eicas ]</small>

[Mowgli]

Try and concentrate on more important matters - like the size of your willy, or is that proportional to the size of your mach no. Damn, so that's where I've been going wrong!

[farrari]

You guys should spare one for us on the 777 at .84 where stuck in the middle.

[greatorex]

I think that this could well be a wind-up. I mean, assuming a cruise speed of .80 for a 767 and .855 for a 747 at FL 350 according to my rusty brain and quick mental maths you're only taking about a difference of about, what, 37mph!?!?!?

[TowerDog]

C.E.:. .. .A cheese board?. .. .Uh, that is a piece of wood ya use to cut and serve yer cheese?. .. .As for Mach number separation:. .Yup, been there as well. Hauled many old 747s between Jeddah and S.E. Asia.. .Don't think slower craft was that big of a problem: After all, one gets paid by the hour, one slows down, one negotiates a different routing, etc.. .. .Say hello to the sand-box. If I never see it again, that will be too soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[LAVDUMP]

Friend of mine flies a gorgeous Global Express worldwide for a huge entertainment company and frequently encounters problems with slower 747-400s, 777s and A340s at altitude.. .. .Operating at altitudes of 430 and above he gleefully looks down and zooms past the bigger but slower traffic... He also earns $200K per year - not a bad job.... .. .It's the damn "put up with my slow aircraft" attitude that I HATE! If you are slow, be courteous and get out of the way if possible.... .. .Cheers

[M.Mouse]

Excuse me if I refrain from writing abuse and insert a fact here but aren't there two parallel airways over Siberia, one for .83 or more and one for .83 or less? I believe they were instigated because of the speed differential between Airbus' and 747s.. .. .Is it also true that Richard Branson's last trans-world balloon attempt failed because he got stuck behind one of his A340s?. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 17:04: Message edited by: M.Mouse ]</small>

[Chesty Morgan]

I can only dream, stuck at .71 pre-apologies incase I get in the way in future. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

[Steep Approach]

Puts a whole new perspective on getting stuck behind a Caravan in Cornwall doesn't it!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[18-Wheeler]

Well, the answer is simple - Get rid of those silly little light twins, and have a sky full of M 0.85 - 0.86 747's. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .But seriously, I'd like to see some way of side-stepping so planes of any speed can climb out of the way of the slower/faster ones.. .Fast lane Boeing, slow lane Airbus.. .Dead simple, mate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[AAL_Silverbird]

Dear Flight Detent,. .. .You are paid by the minute aren't you?

[basil fawlty]

Bring back those thirsty, noisy 707's that hacked along at .88...... .Actually i believe that the 747 was aerodynamically designed to cruise at this speed, but the need for fuel efficiencies brought this down to around .84, therefore the 747 always cruises slightly nose up!

[Flight Detent]

Hi all,. .You, Captain Eicas, are so wrong in everything, that's everything you say, and, Tower Dog, you seem to have the wisdom of experience!. .This worked really well to bring out this topic, but boy, some people are really caustic and negative about 747 drivers, aren't they!. .I can see that, apart from a few intelligent comments, most of you have never flown through Indian airspace!. .Anyway, I prefer BM's, more civilized!. .. .I say again, it was/is a great response, pity most of you missed the point!!. .Cheers.

[Justforkix]

Flight Detent. .. .And your post is real civilized too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[Captain Eicas]

Flight Detent,. .. .On exactly which of the following points was I wrong……. .. .You are a co-pilot with Air Atlanta. .. .The Captain makes fuel decisions not you (thankfully). .. .You are flogging a knackered old –200 on Haj charters. .. .Modern, high performance, longhaul aircraft often get stuck under “too heavy” 747s. .. .Your job allows you to imaging an extra 2 inches on your willy. .. .Almost all the PPRuners on this thread consider you to be a complete tosser. .. .I have no problem with B747 “drivers” or any other pilots – you started this with your ridiculous knob enhancing desire to rid the skies of anything not as big as yours.. .. .The reason why you claim "most of us missed the point" is because you have no point to make (other than the fact you have an enormous knob). .. .Cheers, Eicas (“Captain” to you).. . . . <small>[ 21 March 2002, 14:07: Message edited by: Captain Eicas ]</small>

[18-Wheeler]

On exactly which of the following points was I wrong……. .. .You are a co-pilot with Air Atlanta. .. .Wrong. (I know who he is). .. .The Captain makes fuel decisions not you (thankfully). .. .After consultation with the FE, where necessary.. .. .You are flogging a knackered old –200 on Haj charters. .. .Wrong.. .. .Modern, high performance, longhaul aircraft often get stuck under “too heavy” 747s. .. .Right.. .. .Your job allows you to imaging an extra 2 inches on your willy. .. .Not really ...?. .. .Almost all the PPRuners on this thread consider you to be a complete tosser. .. .Wrong.. .. .I have no problem with B747 “drivers” or any other pilots – you started this with your ridiculous knob enhancing desire to rid the skies of anything not as big as yours.. .. .Wrong.. .. .The reason why you claim "most of us missed the point" is because you have no point to make (other than the fact you have an enormous knob). .. .Wrong.. .. .Not a good strike rate, matey.

[TowerDog]

Hmm, a little disagreement here... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .F.D. Yup, got some experience in the area:. .Done about 7 Hadj's, also a bunch of "Teacher Hadj's" all on the 747 classic.. .Also done Air India Cargo and Saudia Cargo wet-lease on the DC-8, etc.. .. .Too my surprise I ended up with a US Major after Tower Air went Tango Uniform. (Don't know why they would hire an old burned out non-scheder like me. Classic good looks perhaps. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> ). .. .As for winding up the folks on PPRuNe, hmm I would have spent the time chasing them Icelandic Stews over at Rose Village instead. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .18-Wheeler: Ya still have some ex-FF folks left at AA? 3 guys from my class went over there in 95, good people all of 'em.. .. .Got a call from Air Atlanta a while ago about a job, but the pay-scale was such that ya had to spend all month at the assigned base to get full pay.. .Is that deal still in effect?. .. .Sure miss the classic. Like driving a big old Caddilac it was.. .Don't miss the lifestyle with a month in the sand-box and a few days off, then back for another month or more.. .Almost got fired when I bought a ticket and went home on scheduled days off without the blessings of FF crew schedule. . .ALPA lawyers saved my tail, but that was close.. .For punishment they sent me back to Jeddah.. .. .Aye, good 'ol days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[jcavalli]

Big boys with their toys !

[See bee]

Guys,. .Come on, use some intelligence here,this is a wind up. Nice one FD!. .Err, it was meant to be a wind up wasn,t it?. .I mean, not the point of better managing the flow situation but rather your style of putting forward your point of view.. .I am sure I once used to fly with you but don,t worry, you still have some friends in the industry who share your talents.. .CHILL OUT MAN!!!!!!

[Diesel8]

18 Wheeler, . .. .Re B verus A.. .. .So explain why I am doing .74-.75 behind one of those fancy 737-200 "Advanced". Advancing my gray hair is more like it!!!. .. .(All in good natured fun from a "BusDriver)

[TowerDog]

"Big Boys with their Toys"?. .. .Ya have not seen my sailboat yet. Now that is a real toy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[polzin]

T dog........... .. .windup? coulbe. .. .You just cannot believe how many times I have been doing Mach .83 and some 747 has been above me at the altitude I wanted . Made me so angry I could have crushed a Rose. Just another Captain decision which I just hated to make. Slow to .80 or M.87?????. .Always, just because the co-pilot could not take command, I just had another cup of coffee realising I was making $ 3.67 an hour. Does this make me a bad person ?

[con-pilot]

No!

[con-pilot]

Ok boys and girls, let me tell you a story.. .. .Now I want you to understand I’m not a REAL big jet captain. I just flew a B-727 as captain for ten years.. .. .But when I made CAPTAIN on the 72, we had a party. I realized that I was a BOEING captain, WOW!. .. .My wife was there, my sons where there, a great party!. .. .I realized that I must now have some really big ba!ls. Right?. .. .So I went into the bathroom and dropped my pants and looked in to the mirror. Guess what?. .. .I looked at my must-n-touches. Guess what?. .. .Nothing changed!. .. .IT IS NOT WHAT YOU FLY. IT IS WHAT YOU GET PAID!. .. .Bottom line.. .. .Get a life.

[Flight Detent]

Thanks 18-Wheeler, TowerDog and SeeBee, it sure doesn't take very much to bring out the cupboard insecurities in these people, does it!. .SeeBee, remind me, without actually identing yourself, too many people, too short a time!. .. .For those who have a mind to, I'll be monitoring 12345 for most of the dark hours, heading west, thru the Indian FIR, this evening, the 22nd, we'll be going like the asian express all night!. .Cheers!

[Rabbit]

Heh Guys and Gals ... go down - go up - slow down - speed up ... WHO CARES. Relax, just do your job the best you can and give your blood pressure and stress levels a rest.. .. .Have a nice day

[Justforkix]

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[hal3]

Only a few years back these same guys would give an arm and a leg to fly the B767,since the classic B747 and etc were too behind in tech:. .Since the B747-400 and B777 has arrived,they brag about the old faithful B767???. .Keep it up lads!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Raas767]

Flight Detent.. .Why should you care? You get paid by the hour like everybody else, and besides if you want to complain, blast the A340 not the 76.

[TowerDog]

Polzin:. .. .$3.76 per hour????. .. .Surely ya mean $3.76 per minute. Like any good 747 driver should make.. .. .(Sorry Atlas, Southern and Air India, life ain't fair.). .. .Aye Raas767: "Hold at Saffa" was asking about ya recently. . .She posted a nasty message on JetBlast.. .The biitch needs a good spanking from a male pilot I'd say.. .. .Line up dudes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Ignition Override]

As for the image portrayed by some of our 747 pilots: I have never flown one, but the hard-working FO on my last trip got bounced from the 747 FE seat into our narrow-body jet. He admitted, during his second trip after IOE, how much more intense the work is, when flying short legs (:30 - 1:00 enroute time). Luckily he has a background as a regional pilot (Brasilias etc), which was valuable experience to fall back on.. . . . <small>[ 23 March 2002, 06:33: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</small>

[G.Khan]

It is a very broad assumption that pilots get paid by the hour(worked), some maybe, but in the major companies I have worked for you only get paid the SCHEDULED hours, to get more you have to be deep into delays and diversions.. .. .Anyway, how about my idea of giving something similar to the NATS track system a go over Indian airspace?!

[javelin]

So, it's easy, if you want to go fast, cheat, calculate your estimates on .84 and declare .80. Just slow down over the waypoints and your OFDM registers correctly. Secondly if you are anywhere near India, just prefix your callsign with Air India and you get an instant reply, then you correct them with your callsign and carry on talking.

[5milesbaby]

Christ guys, chill out. Try sitting in an Air Traffic centre and realise WHY you are stuck at a level. Its not always another type of differing speed, sods law dictates if you can get two together, you will. Anyway, whats the problem with moving a 1000'ft up or down? On any flight relative costs must be minimal, and at least you can say you DID something to get paid.........

[Captain Chaos 747]

BLODDY HELL you all sound like a bunch of spoilt brats be thankful you still have a job!!!!!!!!!!!!!. .. .I bet some of you collect postage stamps.

[G.Khan]

FIVE MILES - If only it were as simple as 1000'either way over India, no one would complain.. .When too heavy to make FL350 the worst situation I had was being sent to FL250 when on a redispatch flight plan with only 1000kgs of contingency fuel! (B744), an attempt at a re-routing was refused.

[CaptainSquelch]

Kids,. .. .I have two sons. They were acting like you all the time. Who is first ..., who is tallest ..., who is best ..., who has the largest .... . .. .They were over it by the time they both passed the age of 12. Now they get along fine. .. .How old are you?. .. .Sq

[18-Wheeler]

Towerdog - Ex-FF ...?? Sorry don't know what you mean there. (Just got in from a ten hour flight, I *may* be a little tired!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .Not sure about the pay thing, I've been with them for nearly two years and am a fair old regular now. There's also differences between the two contractors, and I think you may be referring to the ACE type contract. I'm with Direct .... .. .Diesel8 - Good point. Too tired to think of a witty response, please insert one here.. .. .FWIW, I used to get a bit annoyed about being held down, but if you're careful it's really no big deal. It's just a little more restrictive with the weather. All ya have ta do is slow down .... Keep the same TAS as you would at the higher level, and the miles-per-gallon is usually much the same as at the higher level. Works a treat on the 747 Classic at least.

[Thin Controller]

Get a life you big speed kings.. .or. .Get go faster stripes!!!!!!!!!. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[TowerDog]

18 wheeler:. .. .FF was the 2 letter code for Tower Air.. .Unless ya worked there, no reason to know that.. .I should have spelt it out.

[Flight Detent]

Hi all,. .The reason I haven't made mention of the Airbus fleet in general, the A340 in particular, is that they are very well known worldwide for being 'moving roadblocks', even the ATC guys are aware of those. They just don't seem as relavent somehow.. .Cheers.

[polzin]

Towerdog......... .. .$3.76 an hour is correct. It was a L1011 and I was trying to get experience. Better than the previous job. I was a skin diver for Roto Rooter.. $ 1 per hour but all the sh.t I could eat.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 27 March 2002, 00:53: Message edited by: polzin ]</small>

[polzin]

Conpilot........... .. .What would have been your thoughts looking in the mirror if you had been a woman ?????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Mad Dog Driver]

I don't think that the problem exists with the 767 as for being "slow". Many times we have been stuck behind A340's, B767's, and even 777's. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .The problem arises in Indian Airspace where the English is bad and the radar control is even worse. The HF frequensices they use really suck and trying to pursuade the controller to speed up or get higher is virtually impossible. It is like a reverse role of KAL, but in ATC terms. Can never read/give a clearance right the first time, and when it is time to give/take a clearance, it's too much work to say/write it so they just forget about it !!! Here is a country with nuclear capabilities and is at war with Pakistan, and they can't even get radar coverage !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .This is more a safety issue in that the southern routes are busy and without some kind of descent airway structure, we are all at a loss. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

[Mitsumi]

Totally agree M.D.D.. .Indian airspace is an International disgrace, both procedurally (controllers) and still using archaic equipment.

[Final 3 Greens]

There I was in my Pup, over Essex, belting along at M0.11, FL35 and there were all these big unagile aeroplanes blocking the sky above me stopping me getting up to FL80 which is the most efficient level for my plane. They even had to put a TMA up for these tin cans to go in.. .. .Humph!