Would it happen here?
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Will the cabin crew "pilot supervisor" stand near the door waiting for the other crew member to return, or take a seat?
If standing near the door waiting, and severe turbulence is encountered, the cabin crew "pilot supervisor" will have to be seated with a seat belt fastened. In some narrow-body types if the jump seat is used, this will physically block the entrance to the flight deck - and the outside crew member will not be able to get back in as they will be physically blocked from entering.
So the outside pilot (could be the captain) will have to sit at a cabin crew station, or a nearby pax seat with a seat belt on waiting for the inside pilot and cabin crew member to handle the severe turbulence event. If it's severe enough, and with an inexperienced pilot stuck inside, it could result in a jet upset - with the captain stuck outside saying Hail Mary's, and thanking Warren Truss (who has no idea, and no experience in anything aviation related) for putting them all in that situation, while the aircraft is spiralling towards the ground with possibly an inexperienced cadet at the controls trying to remember the jet upset recovery procedures while under the pump.
This might sound far-fetched, but it's possible. Did they consider these type of scenarios as part of their knee jerk reaction new procedures??
Probably not
This is certainly a degradation in safety.
How many passengers does a peak hour city train have onboard with only 1 driver, who may be pissed off with his whole world??
If standing near the door waiting, and severe turbulence is encountered, the cabin crew "pilot supervisor" will have to be seated with a seat belt fastened. In some narrow-body types if the jump seat is used, this will physically block the entrance to the flight deck - and the outside crew member will not be able to get back in as they will be physically blocked from entering.
So the outside pilot (could be the captain) will have to sit at a cabin crew station, or a nearby pax seat with a seat belt on waiting for the inside pilot and cabin crew member to handle the severe turbulence event. If it's severe enough, and with an inexperienced pilot stuck inside, it could result in a jet upset - with the captain stuck outside saying Hail Mary's, and thanking Warren Truss (who has no idea, and no experience in anything aviation related) for putting them all in that situation, while the aircraft is spiralling towards the ground with possibly an inexperienced cadet at the controls trying to remember the jet upset recovery procedures while under the pump.
This might sound far-fetched, but it's possible. Did they consider these type of scenarios as part of their knee jerk reaction new procedures??
Probably not
This is certainly a degradation in safety.
How many passengers does a peak hour city train have onboard with only 1 driver, who may be pissed off with his whole world??
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"If it's severe enough, and with an inexperienced pilot stuck inside, it could result in a jet upset"
Back in my day the so called "First Officer" was known as the "Second in Command".
They were required to be "Experienced" and able to fly and make decisions at the same standard as the "Captain" the only difference they sat in the right seat.
I knew the race to the bottom would end in tears....Goddam bean pushers!! A pox on them all!!
I really feel for you guys, having to deal with this Cr.p.
CAsA made us all criminals, now we are homicidal maniacs!!
Back in my day the so called "First Officer" was known as the "Second in Command".
They were required to be "Experienced" and able to fly and make decisions at the same standard as the "Captain" the only difference they sat in the right seat.
I knew the race to the bottom would end in tears....Goddam bean pushers!! A pox on them all!!
I really feel for you guys, having to deal with this Cr.p.
CAsA made us all criminals, now we are homicidal maniacs!!
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I started my career in 1987, since then I've gradually seen the shine wear off and the industry (from a Pilots perspective at least) get worse and worse in so many aspects. Particularly since 911.
Now with this event, the press are hammering the "distrust in Pilots" by highlighting all the events with the very few instances of Pilots with Mental Health Issues. All over the Aus news now is the BA Captain that murdered his wife a few years ago and had thoughts of crashing his 747. The Media just want sensationalist propaganda that sells. Look at how many millions of flights there are with no threat whatsoever. Unfortunately, there is risk in life everyday, and as tragic as this event is, there's little needs to be done, and certainly not the Funfair Showground the Polititions and Media are putting forward with FA's needed on the Flight Deck.
The FA rule puts forward a risk greater than the current situation IMO. It's still extremely low, but not lower than the current situation.
I have maybe 15 years left in this career, and I just want to retire earlier and earlier the more the Media, Polititions, Management and General Public keep changing the rules in the way I operate, and change my work environment as a professional when they clearly have no idea of the Job we do.
The industry has changed so much so quick. We get less and less remuneration and respect for the Job we do, but the requirements seem to increase. I know I just grind my teeth when I'm taking my watch off and belt off at security. I had a passenger piss himself laughing when, in full uniform, my Vegemite was confiscated from me in SYD (my mistake as I forgot I packed it)
One London security guard lectured me on how important it was that we are checked so thoroughly, as he said, and I quote "the 911 Hijackers were Pilots too"
Now with this event, the press are hammering the "distrust in Pilots" by highlighting all the events with the very few instances of Pilots with Mental Health Issues. All over the Aus news now is the BA Captain that murdered his wife a few years ago and had thoughts of crashing his 747. The Media just want sensationalist propaganda that sells. Look at how many millions of flights there are with no threat whatsoever. Unfortunately, there is risk in life everyday, and as tragic as this event is, there's little needs to be done, and certainly not the Funfair Showground the Polititions and Media are putting forward with FA's needed on the Flight Deck.
The FA rule puts forward a risk greater than the current situation IMO. It's still extremely low, but not lower than the current situation.
I have maybe 15 years left in this career, and I just want to retire earlier and earlier the more the Media, Polititions, Management and General Public keep changing the rules in the way I operate, and change my work environment as a professional when they clearly have no idea of the Job we do.
The industry has changed so much so quick. We get less and less remuneration and respect for the Job we do, but the requirements seem to increase. I know I just grind my teeth when I'm taking my watch off and belt off at security. I had a passenger piss himself laughing when, in full uniform, my Vegemite was confiscated from me in SYD (my mistake as I forgot I packed it)
One London security guard lectured me on how important it was that we are checked so thoroughly, as he said, and I quote "the 911 Hijackers were Pilots too"
Last edited by twentyyearstoolate; 30th Mar 2015 at 07:57. Reason: Spelling
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.....and in the biggest change we've seen in our operation for many years, not a single word from any of our managers, from the CP down to the lowest ranking fleet manager.
Nice one boys.
Nice one boys.
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Especially on Shorthaul aircraft with all the shuffling and prolonged door opening, plus the incentive for extremists to now become flight attendants, this will without a doubt cause a suicidal hijacker to take over an aircraft somewhere in the world and cause a disaster, not if but when....
This is laughable, so now we are being supervised by a crew member who more than likely has no idea what is going on in the flight deck and possible only has two weeks training since not being allowed on the flight deck as a general member of the public.
So now I have someone I don't know at all standing or sitting behind me. Apparently only a rostered crew member can carry out this duty aswell, so even if I have a check captain on the jumpseat who is staff travelling I will still need to get a cabin crew member in there aswell when the FO wants to go to the loo.
So now I have someone I don't know at all standing or sitting behind me. Apparently only a rostered crew member can carry out this duty aswell, so even if I have a check captain on the jumpseat who is staff travelling I will still need to get a cabin crew member in there aswell when the FO wants to go to the loo.
^^^ yet, the whole point of these pointless rules is that they are not enhancing security. They are yet more layers of pointless procedures that do nothing but introduce new risks into the equation, another person alone with the pilot who has no flight training, this could be a distraction or worse, a way for dubious types to get access to the flight deck with minimal training or checking.
The best way to prevent further incidents like this would be to remove the bloody door altogether and replace it with a locked but breakable door, if someone attacks the door leave it to the crew and pax to defend it, if need be though it can be broken down.
The best way to prevent further incidents like this would be to remove the bloody door altogether and replace it with a locked but breakable door, if someone attacks the door leave it to the crew and pax to defend it, if need be though it can be broken down.
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With a number of flights now having gone down under the strangest of circumstances, I can't help wondering if there may be a case of "Manchurian Candidates"!
As for crew members indignation over security matters, they have my full sympathy; I recall reporting for duty on the morning of the liquid explosives plot and having my yoghurt confiscated!
As for crew members indignation over security matters, they have my full sympathy; I recall reporting for duty on the morning of the liquid explosives plot and having my yoghurt confiscated!
If you have a engine fire and or in flight shutdown whilst your offsider is in the toilet how does the cabin crew member know whether you are following the checklist or trying to kill everyone by turning off the engine and starting a descent?
Or worse still a depressurisation with a rapid descent.
And since when has the Australian government rewritten law based on what is essentially rumour and hearsay?
There is no official report published, the CVR hasn't been released.
For all we know the guy could have had a heart attack, or it could have been another QF style Airbus computer failure, nobody knows, yet the Australian government wants to rewrite the law and make cockpit less secure.
How about we wait until at the very least somebody releases the CVR publicly so we all know this isn't some massive diversion from some other issue.
Remember these CVR leaks are coming from the French Military
To what end? Stop aviation?
Or worse still a depressurisation with a rapid descent.
And since when has the Australian government rewritten law based on what is essentially rumour and hearsay?
There is no official report published, the CVR hasn't been released.
For all we know the guy could have had a heart attack, or it could have been another QF style Airbus computer failure, nobody knows, yet the Australian government wants to rewrite the law and make cockpit less secure.
How about we wait until at the very least somebody releases the CVR publicly so we all know this isn't some massive diversion from some other issue.
Remember these CVR leaks are coming from the French Military
I can't help wondering if there may be a case of "Manchurian Candidates"!
The government wanted to ban jumpseating because of the security risk a few years ago. But now they want to lock some random FA in the flight deck with a crash axe and one pilot.
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Further to my post #119 on this subject, would it be advisable to insist on a female F/A come to the deck as opposed to a physically stronger male, in order to lessen their ability to overpower the remaining pilot?
By extension, do you then insist that there is a female working in the front cabin.
On longer sectors then, where they take their crew break, do you also want the other F/A to be female?
This is going to be messy.
By extension, do you then insist that there is a female working in the front cabin.
On longer sectors then, where they take their crew break, do you also want the other F/A to be female?
This is going to be messy.
Will the cabin crew "pilot supervisor" stand near the door waiting for the other crew member to return, or take a seat?
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Well it worked fine for Impulse Airlines through all their years of operating as themselves and as Qantaslink on B717. It suceeded on a number of levels, not the least of which was team-bonding, mutual respect, and understanding. The policy was introduced because we were trained by the aircraft manufacturers, not by some ego-maniac who thought that Aussies "know everything".
I suggested the policy to a QF captain with whom I trained in the RAAF. He thought it a superb idea, as he had suffered dual pilot incapacitation, which was only resolved when his appendix burst, allowing him to land the aeroplane. He could have been administrated palliative medicine. His suggestion to QF management was met with the same guffaws as I witness here on this site.
The purpose of the F/A in the flight-deck is solely and utterly to manually open the door, letting in 50% of the crew. This policy was totally thrown out with the "Ansettification" when the A320 was introduced, and pilots no longer helped the team straighten the cabin on turnarounds. The cabin crew were deemed by the new management to be replaceable, and not committed to the job anyway, even those with 20 years in various airlines.
This term has got me into so much trouble in my life, but now I'm retired I'll use it with abandon. Wait for it...
If you are such a sky-god that you never need assistance nor recognise other team members abilities, you are FROGSH1T!
If you are such a company person that your security will weed out threats so efficiently that it will never be an issue, FROGSH1T!
If you believe that your company knows more than the decades-old company that built and test flew your aircraft, FROGSH1T!
I go by train and ship these days, because most of you (at least on this thread) are goats, and my shepherding days are over. The times are a'changing, get used to it. The whole world is marching to this beat, and you guys are out of step - but you're NEVER wrong. When you buy your next coffee in the terminal, what's in it? GBH, LSD? You are never invulnerable.
I suggested the policy to a QF captain with whom I trained in the RAAF. He thought it a superb idea, as he had suffered dual pilot incapacitation, which was only resolved when his appendix burst, allowing him to land the aeroplane. He could have been administrated palliative medicine. His suggestion to QF management was met with the same guffaws as I witness here on this site.
The purpose of the F/A in the flight-deck is solely and utterly to manually open the door, letting in 50% of the crew. This policy was totally thrown out with the "Ansettification" when the A320 was introduced, and pilots no longer helped the team straighten the cabin on turnarounds. The cabin crew were deemed by the new management to be replaceable, and not committed to the job anyway, even those with 20 years in various airlines.
This term has got me into so much trouble in my life, but now I'm retired I'll use it with abandon. Wait for it...
If you are such a sky-god that you never need assistance nor recognise other team members abilities, you are FROGSH1T!
If you are such a company person that your security will weed out threats so efficiently that it will never be an issue, FROGSH1T!
If you believe that your company knows more than the decades-old company that built and test flew your aircraft, FROGSH1T!
I go by train and ship these days, because most of you (at least on this thread) are goats, and my shepherding days are over. The times are a'changing, get used to it. The whole world is marching to this beat, and you guys are out of step - but you're NEVER wrong. When you buy your next coffee in the terminal, what's in it? GBH, LSD? You are never invulnerable.
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You are never invulnerable.
Enjoy your retirement though. I'm sure I must have flown with you once, as I think it was you who made me make sure i nailed command training! Bahhh Bahhh
Ah, who cares, let the FA in .......good for a chat, and prolly smells better than the effo anyway, plus it's good to ask how the passengers are and how the service is going, or how work is in general....all the stuff we used to chat about before the 9/11 door was put in.
I'm more concerned about our new media label as potential 'Rouge'.
I'm more concerned about our new media label as potential 'Rouge'.
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The best way to prevent further incidents like this would be to remove the bloody door altogether and replace it with a locked but breakable door, if someone attacks the door leave it to the crew and pax to defend it, if need be though it can be broken down.
Leave it to the crew and pax to defend it! Exactly! That is what the security goons and clueless pollies do not understand about a post-911 world.
If ANYBODY now tries to make an unauthorised flight deck entry, thanks to 911, they will be torn to pieces or at least have thier ribs broken by the pax and crew.
There is your defence of the flight deck! Do not make the flight deck impenetrable, it might cause an accident.
Bottums Up
Whilst I believe that the reaction of the Government and therefore the regulator is OTT, knee jerk, and any other critical adjective that one can imagine, I don't for one minute believe the intent is that the "safety FA" is there to determine and thus intercede if a lone pilot attempts something sinister.
I suspect the rationale is twofold. If a safety FA is present, then a lone pilot is probably less likely to attempt some thing sinister but more importantly, s/he can open the flight deck door and allow the other pilot in.
Another "we're keeping you safe action" from a federal government near you!
I suspect the rationale is twofold. If a safety FA is present, then a lone pilot is probably less likely to attempt some thing sinister but more importantly, s/he can open the flight deck door and allow the other pilot in.
Another "we're keeping you safe action" from a federal government near you!
It's only just been mentioned after 8 pages, but the idea of the FA in the cockpit is simply to unlock the door and let the other pilot back in, not to physically prevent the remaining pilot crash the plane. So the FA only needs to know how to operate the lock, and the door handle.
I am amused how many of you are kicking off because you feel you are no longer trusted, but then you also say that you don't want some "unknown FA" or even "queen", (charming - how enlightened), in the cockpit ! Double standards and prejudice? Do you feel the same about a pilot you haven't flown with before?
The point about pilots going through security and yoghurts etc., is to prevent a pilot smuggling something on board which is designed to explode or cause damage after they have got off.
I don't like security or the new FA ruling either - it is more bother and complication for me and my working day/night, but I can understand the intent.
The real answer that has been suggested by myself and others is to keep the cockpit door as it is but move it rearwards so the forward toilet becomes part of the flight deck. A pilot will only be in the loo during the cruise, and so they would have time to come out and take control if the PF started doing something weird.
I am amused how many of you are kicking off because you feel you are no longer trusted, but then you also say that you don't want some "unknown FA" or even "queen", (charming - how enlightened), in the cockpit ! Double standards and prejudice? Do you feel the same about a pilot you haven't flown with before?
The point about pilots going through security and yoghurts etc., is to prevent a pilot smuggling something on board which is designed to explode or cause damage after they have got off.
I don't like security or the new FA ruling either - it is more bother and complication for me and my working day/night, but I can understand the intent.
The real answer that has been suggested by myself and others is to keep the cockpit door as it is but move it rearwards so the forward toilet becomes part of the flight deck. A pilot will only be in the loo during the cruise, and so they would have time to come out and take control if the PF started doing something weird.