Age limit to 70?
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Age limit to 70?
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...al-pilots.html
"Age 70 is already being quietly discussed in the halls of the U.S. Congress and ALPA. There was a lot of whining about Age 65 but in the end, there was not one vote against it when it sailed through legislative approval in the States."
Looks like all the airline managers can breathe easy and we can forget about a payrise and promotion eh?
"Age 70 is already being quietly discussed in the halls of the U.S. Congress and ALPA. There was a lot of whining about Age 65 but in the end, there was not one vote against it when it sailed through legislative approval in the States."
Looks like all the airline managers can breathe easy and we can forget about a payrise and promotion eh?
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Everyone is different. I have worked with people over seventy and they have done things very well albeit slower than younger folk.
I have also worked with people slightly under 70 who were even worse because they wanted to prove to evrybody that age didnt matter, and made mistakes along the way whilst sprouting that their experience was more important than anything else, including the other personnel.
It is and always will be a fine line.
GB
I have also worked with people slightly under 70 who were even worse because they wanted to prove to evrybody that age didnt matter, and made mistakes along the way whilst sprouting that their experience was more important than anything else, including the other personnel.
It is and always will be a fine line.
GB
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I totally agree, some of the sharpest guys I've worked with and learnt the most from we're on the downhill run.
However, it would be hard to see this get up of there were an oversupply of younger pilots. It is driven by the ever present threat of a pilot shortage and continually defangs the pilot groups chance of reversing the race to the bottom for pay and conditions.
Big business wins, next gen of pilots lose again. Baby boomers get to pay for wife one, two and three.
There is a complete generation of pilots that basically have no hope of earning a meaningful living out of a career in flying.
Pathetic.
However, it would be hard to see this get up of there were an oversupply of younger pilots. It is driven by the ever present threat of a pilot shortage and continually defangs the pilot groups chance of reversing the race to the bottom for pay and conditions.
Big business wins, next gen of pilots lose again. Baby boomers get to pay for wife one, two and three.
There is a complete generation of pilots that basically have no hope of earning a meaningful living out of a career in flying.
Pathetic.
Given the rate of change of technology and SOP's for that matter, I am not sure how keen I would be to have guys into their 70's operating. Whilst I'm sure there are always people who are capable at that age to make a rule for all pilots isn't necessarily the wisest option. 60 was a good number it should have stayed there.
Be thankful you are not employed by UPS. They recently laid off 60 odd pilots and the increase in the retirement age to 65 was cited as being one of the contributing factors
Be thankful you are not employed by UPS. They recently laid off 60 odd pilots and the increase in the retirement age to 65 was cited as being one of the contributing factors
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I've flown with 70 year olds long haul and I should've got most of their salary, because I did most of their job, they think they're onto it but they're not.
Unfortunately when they do their medicals there's no method of checking their brains for inability to stay awake and occasional confusion.
Unfortunately when they do their medicals there's no method of checking their brains for inability to stay awake and occasional confusion.
they think they're onto it but they're not
there's no method of checking their brains for inability to stay awake and occasional confusion
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I'll wait till I'm 70 to respond...
That way I would have worked for 5 or 6 airlines that went broke because a new one started underneath offering lesser terms and conditions!
Actually - its looking more and more everyday that I'll need to be working till I'm 80! Can we get that on the agenda
That way I would have worked for 5 or 6 airlines that went broke because a new one started underneath offering lesser terms and conditions!
Actually - its looking more and more everyday that I'll need to be working till I'm 80! Can we get that on the agenda
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New step to evacuation checklist,
* CM2 take BCF, torch, NOTOC, throw ailing commander over shoulder and evacuate using first available exit
* Take command on ground (if he already wasn't running the show)
On a lighter (or not) note, have anyone seen the old data that used to do the rounds that showed life expectancy vs retirement age for pilots?
From that, pilot incapacitation (permanent) will be a memory item.
* CM2 take BCF, torch, NOTOC, throw ailing commander over shoulder and evacuate using first available exit
* Take command on ground (if he already wasn't running the show)
On a lighter (or not) note, have anyone seen the old data that used to do the rounds that showed life expectancy vs retirement age for pilots?
From that, pilot incapacitation (permanent) will be a memory item.
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But they don't croak until they retire, right? All the more reason to up the retirement age to 90. Think of the tax contributions they could make with another 25 years.
We all know these automated airplanes fly themselves anyway, so what's the big deal if the Captain is asleep from V1 to the 80 knots call after landing?
We all know these automated airplanes fly themselves anyway, so what's the big deal if the Captain is asleep from V1 to the 80 knots call after landing?
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Doesnt matter what age you make retirement. They all still have to pass the sim checks. And from what I've seen lately, it gets increasingly hard when in to your sixties.
Partnered one guy a while back who really shouldnt have got through. Hell of a nice guy but really felt like I was doing his job too.
I think a few would have already gone if the guts hadnt dropped out of their Super fund with the GFC.
Partnered one guy a while back who really shouldnt have got through. Hell of a nice guy but really felt like I was doing his job too.
I think a few would have already gone if the guts hadnt dropped out of their Super fund with the GFC.
Charles Darwin rules in all things. Just as the old croc eventually gets driven away from the best part of the river, old pilots get driven out by the 'system'.
How it usually works is the older guys lose interest in checking and training and so it gets handed down to the younger more gung-ho types on their climb up the career ladder. The young guys have to make their mark. Some may even have an urge to re-invent aviation. The old guys either can't hack it, or feel that they should no longer have to prove anything. Then there are those who are good enough, but simply can't be bothered any more. Whatever, most develop a preference for the golf course or fishing etc.
There are a few exceptions, but these tend to be people with no life outside aviation. Types who can take the ops manual to bed every night and still find it fascinating reading.....
How it usually works is the older guys lose interest in checking and training and so it gets handed down to the younger more gung-ho types on their climb up the career ladder. The young guys have to make their mark. Some may even have an urge to re-invent aviation. The old guys either can't hack it, or feel that they should no longer have to prove anything. Then there are those who are good enough, but simply can't be bothered any more. Whatever, most develop a preference for the golf course or fishing etc.
There are a few exceptions, but these tend to be people with no life outside aviation. Types who can take the ops manual to bed every night and still find it fascinating reading.....
Bottums Up
It's interesting how in this thread, and those of a similar ilk, have lots of comments about how the youngsters better reflexes and modern systems knowledge have saved the day for the old codger in the left seat but very little comment on how the old codger's experience, wisdom and ability to perceive the coming threat, have helped avoid the need to demonstrate lighting reflexes, or recite some section of the OM, that doesn't quite deal with the situation at hand. 
No one should vacate the left seat just because it is perceived by those looking longingly at said seat, believe it is their turn. Those us in the left seat had to wait until a vacancy occurred and then prove our ability to hold the position, and I see no reason why the younger generation shouldn't wait similarly.
No one should vacate the left seat just because it is perceived by those looking longingly at said seat, believe it is their turn. Those us in the left seat had to wait until a vacancy occurred and then prove our ability to hold the position, and I see no reason why the younger generation shouldn't wait similarly.
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Because now that you have that seat the only people who benefit from an increase in the retirement age is you.
Everyone else has their careers put back 5 years.
Gen Boomer greed. Permeats the senior ranks at all airlines and dare I say, most industries other than I.T.. Wonder why?
Everyone else has their careers put back 5 years.
Gen Boomer greed. Permeats the senior ranks at all airlines and dare I say, most industries other than I.T.. Wonder why?
Well said CC.
I recall info from safety articles and even the US Airmans Info manual that I read yrs ago that younger pilots I spoke to here several yrs ago didnt have a clue about.
Some of it basic info like wake turbulence, how to avoid it etc. They were operating small turboprops (<5700kg) alongside jet transports of all sizes at Perth.
Sorry to say for all the theory taught in ATPL schools now, there is still a frightening lack of basic knowledge out there among the younger "hotshots".
I am hardly ancient but I remember the old saying about simple and compound ignorance.
Simple ignorance is not knowing something, compound ignorance is not knowing that you dont know something (or that it even exists).
The former means you can go and find out and look it up or refresh your memory, the latter is far more insidious and dangerous as you may suddenly realize something you know nothing about does exist just as it is about to bite you in the ass.
Maybe the new generation needs to remember the old pilots and bold pilots phrase too.
I recall info from safety articles and even the US Airmans Info manual that I read yrs ago that younger pilots I spoke to here several yrs ago didnt have a clue about.
Some of it basic info like wake turbulence, how to avoid it etc. They were operating small turboprops (<5700kg) alongside jet transports of all sizes at Perth.
Sorry to say for all the theory taught in ATPL schools now, there is still a frightening lack of basic knowledge out there among the younger "hotshots".
I am hardly ancient but I remember the old saying about simple and compound ignorance.
Simple ignorance is not knowing something, compound ignorance is not knowing that you dont know something (or that it even exists).
The former means you can go and find out and look it up or refresh your memory, the latter is far more insidious and dangerous as you may suddenly realize something you know nothing about does exist just as it is about to bite you in the ass.
Maybe the new generation needs to remember the old pilots and bold pilots phrase too.
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Mach E Avelli,
Your post is profound in that it is not confined to just pilot ranks....You are spot on.
If I am still working at 65 and not on the golf course, then I have screwed up big time!
GB
Your post is profound in that it is not confined to just pilot ranks....You are spot on.
If I am still working at 65 and not on the golf course, then I have screwed up big time!
GB
Bottums Up
What The, assuming your response is to my post, I beg to disagree. If the retirement age is not specified but performance based, the only people who don't benefit are those forced to retire at a certain age in times gone.
Speaking only for myself, why is it greed if I enjoy my work and want to keep doing it for as log as I want.
If some one thinks I or any one should go and retire just to let some one else get a position, then that some one should first demonstrate their own altruism, by retiring now, and letting some wannabe lower on the totem pole get a leg up.
To reinforce Aussie027's post, a mate was in command of a jet recently, with Bloggs flying a visual night circuit. Bloggs (3 years as a jet F/O) didn't want any pre-programmed FMS assistance but was going to 'raw data it'.
When bloggs was told several times that he was low on profile, he acknowledged but did nothing to correct the situation. Eventually he was instructed to level off and told he would fly into the profile at 3 dme.
On the ground Bloggs asked, "how did you know what height I needed to be at 3 dme?"
Speaking only for myself, why is it greed if I enjoy my work and want to keep doing it for as log as I want.
If some one thinks I or any one should go and retire just to let some one else get a position, then that some one should first demonstrate their own altruism, by retiring now, and letting some wannabe lower on the totem pole get a leg up.
To reinforce Aussie027's post, a mate was in command of a jet recently, with Bloggs flying a visual night circuit. Bloggs (3 years as a jet F/O) didn't want any pre-programmed FMS assistance but was going to 'raw data it'.
When bloggs was told several times that he was low on profile, he acknowledged but did nothing to correct the situation. Eventually he was instructed to level off and told he would fly into the profile at 3 dme.
On the ground Bloggs asked, "how did you know what height I needed to be at 3 dme?"
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That just proves the training system at that company is lacking.
My point is YOU get to keep the seat for 5 years longer whilst everyone else has to wait 5 years longer to get it and then has to retire at the same age as you.
If you love flying that much buy a lightie, but don't bottleneck the system as YOU joined it.
It would be altruistic to realise that the pilots who joined airlines in the 70's and early 80's have had the greatest careers any pilot is ever likely to have. They should recognise such and maybe, just maybe, leave some scraps for the rest.
My point is YOU get to keep the seat for 5 years longer whilst everyone else has to wait 5 years longer to get it and then has to retire at the same age as you.
If you love flying that much buy a lightie, but don't bottleneck the system as YOU joined it.
It would be altruistic to realise that the pilots who joined airlines in the 70's and early 80's have had the greatest careers any pilot is ever likely to have. They should recognise such and maybe, just maybe, leave some scraps for the rest.