Age limit to 70?
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Try flying longhaul 744 with 70 year old F/O's. I've got some experience of it, but don't do it anymore thank goodness because I've just turned 60 myself. There's not to many upsides to turning 60 but that's the best one.
Routine, not bad, but when something out of the ordinary occurs these guys struggle and on one occasion I called in sick rather than do without any sleep in the bunk because I didn't trust a guy who should be in an old folks home.
There's no way of checking what's going on between their ears and nothing will be done until something bad happens.
Routine, not bad, but when something out of the ordinary occurs these guys struggle and on one occasion I called in sick rather than do without any sleep in the bunk because I didn't trust a guy who should be in an old folks home.
There's no way of checking what's going on between their ears and nothing will be done until something bad happens.
Last edited by skol; 9th Aug 2010 at 05:48.
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What The,
I have to agree with Claret on this.
Why should said Capt vacate said seat at the age of 65-70 just to make room for the RHS to further his/her career. As long as the Capt can continually hold a Class 1 medical and is deemed proficient when under a Contolled Check environment ie Sim or Annual Route Check, then why should the Capt have to vacate their seat.
The problem with Today's Gen Y is that people expect everything now, and think that they have a right to it now. Patience is a virtue so I was told. All good things come to those who wait, so I was also told. Besides, as Claret elluded to, if said Capt still loves the thrill of flying, then he/she has every right to occupy that seat.
It was not that long ago(still exists at a particular major carrier) that the transition from RHS to LHS was an average of 12-13 years. Today, courtesy of the LCC and rapid expansion of said airlines, people joining these carriers think it is their right to hold a Command on the company aircraft within 3 years. This is certainly not the norm and should be realised as such.
I have to agree with Claret on this.
Why should said Capt vacate said seat at the age of 65-70 just to make room for the RHS to further his/her career. As long as the Capt can continually hold a Class 1 medical and is deemed proficient when under a Contolled Check environment ie Sim or Annual Route Check, then why should the Capt have to vacate their seat.
The problem with Today's Gen Y is that people expect everything now, and think that they have a right to it now. Patience is a virtue so I was told. All good things come to those who wait, so I was also told. Besides, as Claret elluded to, if said Capt still loves the thrill of flying, then he/she has every right to occupy that seat.
It was not that long ago(still exists at a particular major carrier) that the transition from RHS to LHS was an average of 12-13 years. Today, courtesy of the LCC and rapid expansion of said airlines, people joining these carriers think it is their right to hold a Command on the company aircraft within 3 years. This is certainly not the norm and should be realised as such.
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Far out most guys between 60-65 are pretty hopeless I would hate to see 70 year old codgers flying commercial aviation.
Haha just kidding!
I think you can't really make generalizations on age, but at the end of the day most people are not going to go to 70, heaps get medically discharged so to speak around 65, so for people worried about it affecting their careers take a chill pill, think about it eventually this extending is going to hit a limit and there will be an avalanche of retirements, and an avalanche of promotions! Look forward to it! I for one am aiming for 55 but realistically it will probably be 60 but you never know! Got too many better things to do than work!
Haha just kidding!I think you can't really make generalizations on age, but at the end of the day most people are not going to go to 70, heaps get medically discharged so to speak around 65, so for people worried about it affecting their careers take a chill pill, think about it eventually this extending is going to hit a limit and there will be an avalanche of retirements, and an avalanche of promotions! Look forward to it! I for one am aiming for 55 but realistically it will probably be 60 but you never know! Got too many better things to do than work!
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I find it funny (read depressing) that those in command at 60-65+ often talk about the younger generation just needing to wait their turn. In my airline those old guys often got into a widebody jet job in their twenties and had a command on a widebody in their thirties. Today its more like early to mid thirties to even get into the airline with an expected wait of about 20 years till your first widebody command.
The old guys tend to forget that their progression was a lot quicker, thanks in part to the fact that retirement ages when they would have joined were around 55. Now that retirement ages have gone out the window we have the old fellas hanging around long past the retirement age that was in place when they joined and which helped advance their career.
I also find it funny (depressing) when the old guys bring out the "experience" argument. Typical Second Officer age is mid thirties to mid forties with somewhere between 5-10k hours. First Officers anywhere from mid forties to late sixties or even early seventies thanks to Captains being forced bak into the right hand seat. The first time around FO will have say around 15-20k hours. Can you seriously make an argument that either of these guys is lacking in the experience that only a 65+ year old Captain can bring?
The old guys tend to forget that their progression was a lot quicker, thanks in part to the fact that retirement ages when they would have joined were around 55. Now that retirement ages have gone out the window we have the old fellas hanging around long past the retirement age that was in place when they joined and which helped advance their career.
I also find it funny (depressing) when the old guys bring out the "experience" argument. Typical Second Officer age is mid thirties to mid forties with somewhere between 5-10k hours. First Officers anywhere from mid forties to late sixties or even early seventies thanks to Captains being forced bak into the right hand seat. The first time around FO will have say around 15-20k hours. Can you seriously make an argument that either of these guys is lacking in the experience that only a 65+ year old Captain can bring?
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The problem with Today's Gen Y is that people expect everything now
It is not about the love of flying.
It is not about the airline requiring your so valuable "experience".
IT IS ABOUT MONEY AND THEREFORE GREED!!!!
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What The,
According to your Avatar(handle if you don't get it), you are 50yrs of age, making you a boomer.
Oh and BTW , I have just turned 39 so way off the mark CHAMP!!
According to your Avatar(handle if you don't get it), you are 50yrs of age, making you a boomer.
Oh and BTW , I have just turned 39 so way off the mark CHAMP!!
Whispering "T" Jet
IT IS ABOUT MONEY AND THEREFORE GREED!!!!
Get with the program son or find another fishing hole!
In my airline those old guys often got into a widebody jet job in their twenties and had a command on a widebody in their thirties.
You cannot generalised! Some did. Most didn't!
Command bottle neck solution
Start working the old buggers at max hours, with min rest.
Then watch em start falling off the perch!
I can hear it now:
"Geez Doris, when I agreed to keep working till I reach 100, I meant age not hours per month!!!"
Then watch em start falling off the perch!
I can hear it now:
"Geez Doris, when I agreed to keep working till I reach 100, I meant age not hours per month!!!"
Bottums Up
Sorry What The I can't agree with your narrow premise that it is about money and therefore greed.
It may well be about money, in my case it is. I still love the flying but I've had a gut full of the rest of the **** that goes with it. However, as much as I'd love to be a grey nomad, I can't afford it. So while I can earn a dollar flying, I'll keep going.
You telling me I should get out because I'm greedy, is as unreasonable as I would be if I told you to keep going until you couldn't make the grade. To my knowledge we still live in a democracy and it is not legal to discriminate against people based on age.
And lest it appear that I'm ageist against younger pilots, Bloggs & I were caught a little short tonight into Cairns, as we were expecting a LOC but instead were cleared a VOR-A, which culminates in circling.
Passing showers meant we weren't visual and executed a missed approach and landed off the subsequent approach.
Bloggs, some 20 years my junior provided stirling support, as one would expect, and is hereby acknowledged.
It may well be about money, in my case it is. I still love the flying but I've had a gut full of the rest of the **** that goes with it. However, as much as I'd love to be a grey nomad, I can't afford it. So while I can earn a dollar flying, I'll keep going.
You telling me I should get out because I'm greedy, is as unreasonable as I would be if I told you to keep going until you couldn't make the grade. To my knowledge we still live in a democracy and it is not legal to discriminate against people based on age.
And lest it appear that I'm ageist against younger pilots, Bloggs & I were caught a little short tonight into Cairns, as we were expecting a LOC but instead were cleared a VOR-A, which culminates in circling.
Passing showers meant we weren't visual and executed a missed approach and landed off the subsequent approach.
Bloggs, some 20 years my junior provided stirling support, as one would expect, and is hereby acknowledged.
Last edited by Capt Claret; 9th Aug 2010 at 13:34.
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Airline management isn't stupid...well...not always anyway.
It might not be apparent to many at present, but the western world is heading for a severe labor shortage by midway through this coming decade. The leading arc of the bell curve of baby boomers will be really hitting the retirement period in a big way. It will be an unprecedented period in history as, in general, the baby boomers will be retiring with a significant proportion of discretionary retirement funds from superannuation investments and other investments that both they and their parents made. These retirees will be wanting to spend it and there simply won't be enough in the labour pool to meet demand. The airline companies will need every able-bodied pilot they can get their hands on. If those same companies can act now to increase their prospective labour pool, they'll be in a much better position to control costs a few years down the line. "How?" you may ask. Look at the bickering that is already taking place on here as the up-and-comers feel they are being held back and the old farts feel like they are the objects of age discrimination. Typical pilots!
I don't take it to bed to read. It makes my wife happy reminiscing on how there used to be something firm between the sheets.
It might not be apparent to many at present, but the western world is heading for a severe labor shortage by midway through this coming decade. The leading arc of the bell curve of baby boomers will be really hitting the retirement period in a big way. It will be an unprecedented period in history as, in general, the baby boomers will be retiring with a significant proportion of discretionary retirement funds from superannuation investments and other investments that both they and their parents made. These retirees will be wanting to spend it and there simply won't be enough in the labour pool to meet demand. The airline companies will need every able-bodied pilot they can get their hands on. If those same companies can act now to increase their prospective labour pool, they'll be in a much better position to control costs a few years down the line. "How?" you may ask. Look at the bickering that is already taking place on here as the up-and-comers feel they are being held back and the old farts feel like they are the objects of age discrimination. Typical pilots!
Types who can take the ops manual to bed every night and still find it fascinating reading.....
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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I realise your post is toungue in cheek Mince, but I can easily remember the days when I would check in for a long haul flight to be greeted by a weary looking FO (paired with me, the other two crew would be in the bunks), who would be the first to fall asleep, given the chance. Me, the 'old fart' had managed to grab a few hours peace and quiet in the afternoon and have some worthwhile rest, the FO, on the other hand, didn't get any rest due to having a young family!
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Why does there have to be a "retiring age" at all? Isn't the ability to perform a far better and safer yardstick? After all, there's a similar yardstick at the lower end of the industry as well.
How often have we seen posts on this site asking what the requirements are for XYZ Co to even consider a new hire? Usually it's hours related, with some requirement relating to type (endo or ability to gain one). That doesn't work at the upper end - the hours are usually there already as is the experience on type, i.e. a proven record.
So, as some have already commented, aren't the limiting factors the ability to pass checks and medicals?
I suspect therein lies the devil. There will always be a degree of inconsistency between the testing practitioners in the interpretation of what is and what isn't acceptable. The line between pass and fail is, I suspect, broader than most realise because some parameters are subjective and cannot be quantified.
Arguments over the speed of reflex are not always a good measure of ability. Ask around about the number of incidents where, having suffered an engine failure on a twin, the wrong engine has inadvertently been shut down in haste. Happens in fixed- and rotary-wing.
The bottom line for me is: Can the Commander continue to perform proficiently and safely? If then answers are "yes" and "yes", I'll fly with him/her, regardless of their age.
Le Vieux
How often have we seen posts on this site asking what the requirements are for XYZ Co to even consider a new hire? Usually it's hours related, with some requirement relating to type (endo or ability to gain one). That doesn't work at the upper end - the hours are usually there already as is the experience on type, i.e. a proven record.
So, as some have already commented, aren't the limiting factors the ability to pass checks and medicals?
I suspect therein lies the devil. There will always be a degree of inconsistency between the testing practitioners in the interpretation of what is and what isn't acceptable. The line between pass and fail is, I suspect, broader than most realise because some parameters are subjective and cannot be quantified.
Arguments over the speed of reflex are not always a good measure of ability. Ask around about the number of incidents where, having suffered an engine failure on a twin, the wrong engine has inadvertently been shut down in haste. Happens in fixed- and rotary-wing.
The bottom line for me is: Can the Commander continue to perform proficiently and safely? If then answers are "yes" and "yes", I'll fly with him/her, regardless of their age.
Le Vieux
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This is great! go you good thing!- baby boomers vs x,y gen is always a sure bet!
The real answer is move to an airline that really needs pilots, like um Emirates. Retirement age doesn't factor then!!!
The real answer is move to an airline that really needs pilots, like um Emirates. Retirement age doesn't factor then!!!
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Having flown until 65, and now 72, I have not the slightest interest of (1) ever sleeping in a hotel again (2) do not ever want another wakeup call, (3) ever put on a uniform again, (4) never want to read another manual or a notam unless it involves a "lighty" (5) 0500 sign ons, or even worse 2100 sign ons, (6) ever eat another crew meal, (7) spend the entire night at 30,000 ft (8) never lay my eyes on another simulater, (9) never drive home feeling like s#$t (10) ever having to listen to the crap, sh%t and drivel from management who would not know a APU from a camels arse. 70 yrs is to old for commercial flying, your eyes, your hearing, your plumbing, your brain are not functioning quick enough to do the job, (thank God) its time to go fishing, and be grateful for the great time and job you had, I started at TAA aged 19 years and finished in QF aged 65 enough is enough. Enjoy your time, but move on for the young guns coming behind.
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The hypocrisy of the over 60's guys justifiying their greed, is quite breath- taking.
I'll bet the vast majority of them were quite happy to accept their upgrades when others reached retirement age in years gone by. Not a peep was heard from them, in defence of the poor guys who were forced to retire.
Now they bleat 'discrimination' when anyone suggests they have had a fair innings.
They have had more than a fair innings, but they are going to ride that gravy train into the sunset....and everyone else be damned.
I'll bet the vast majority of them were quite happy to accept their upgrades when others reached retirement age in years gone by. Not a peep was heard from them, in defence of the poor guys who were forced to retire.
Now they bleat 'discrimination' when anyone suggests they have had a fair innings.
They have had more than a fair innings, but they are going to ride that gravy train into the sunset....and everyone else be damned.
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Having flown until 65, and now 72, I have not the slightest interest of (1) ever sleeping in a hotel again (2) do not ever want another wakeup call, (3) ever put on a uniform again, (4) never want to read another manual or a notam unless it involves a "lighty" (5) 0500 sign ons, or even worse 2100 sign ons, (6) ever eat another crew meal, (7) spend the entire night at 30,000 ft (8) never lay my eyes on another simulater, (9) never drive home feeling like s#$t (10) ever having to listen to the crap, sh%t and drivel from management who would not know a APU from a camels arse. 70 yrs is to old for commercial flying, your eyes, your hearing, your plumbing, your brain are not functioning quick enough to do the job, (thank God) its time to go fishing, and be grateful for the great time and job you had, I started at TAA aged 19 years and finished in QF aged 65 enough is enough. Enjoy your time, but move on for the young guns coming behind.
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Well if all the senior pilots want to continue flying to 65 and beyond for the 'love of flying' I say let them fly for the regionals! They could fill in for the upcoming pilot shortage from years of stagnant growth that has forced new pilots to leave the profession in search of livable wages. The new regulations requiring commuter pilots to have 1500 hours will also be solved since they would have 18000 hour pilots to fly 0:30 min legs all day. The regional pay scales would also be enough for someone drawing social security and retirement since they pay only enough to supplement one's living. Everyone will be happy since they 'love to fly' so much that they can fly 90+ hours each month!
After all they are flying for the 'love of flying' at that age, right?
After all they are flying for the 'love of flying' at that age, right?