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ATC Issues A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.


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Old 18th Dec 2012, 15:52   #21 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
I'd rather not play guess the airfield!
Spoilsport! Seriously, if is was as described - and that is always a caveat - somebody should have his *rs* kicked. What annoys me is that it refects badly on all ATS, as indicated in your initial thread title.

2 s
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Old 18th Dec 2012, 21:22   #22 (permalink)
 
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If you experience a situation as a pilot that has safety implications then please file a report with the caa. But think of it this way your not complaining about an ats provider but reporting a situation so that lessons can be learned (on both sides). If you get the opportunity then tell other parties involved that you intend to file a report to allow them to fill one also so that the incident can be fully investigated.
As atc, we fill them in whenever we have safety concerns, it's not personal, it's about working together to provide safe ats.

ST
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Old 18th Dec 2012, 21:50   #23 (permalink)
 
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Possibly Goodwood?

Goodwood FIS
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 10:08   #24 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
your (sic) not complaining about an ats provider but reporting a situation so that lessons can be learned (on both sides).
What "lessons can be learned" by both sides? This is too fatuous an excuse nowadays. If it is as described, it is a complaint.

2 s
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 10:22   #25 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
CEO gets a speeding ticket, gets to work, yells at VP.
VP yells at secretary. Secretary yells at receptionist.
Receptionist gets home and yells at son, sends him to bed without dinner.
Son sees cat on the way to bed, kicks cat.
Probably would have been better if CEO went to receptionists house and kicked cat himself... but...
poor cat
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 10:27   #26 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pulse1
Possibly Goodwood?
Not Goodwood.
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 16:49   #27 (permalink)
 
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Smile

I am a CDO. Those who have to use my service will know what I am and where I am. I would never dream of giving aircrew a hard time. English is often their second or third etc. language . I struggle at the best of times with English. If a mistake is made on readback, I will make sure it is corrected without any verbal hassle. I want the cockpit crew to leave my freq happy and relaxed in the understanding of their clearance. If They call back to confirm again, I will always thank Them for doing the right thing. A happy pilot,going en-route, makes me feel I'm doing my job. Reading back over this reply makes Me sound a bit An-l. So feel free to shoot me down until YOU give Me a call. Regards EGGX.
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 17:15   #28 (permalink)
 
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It could hardly be Fairoaks as there is no runway 25 there and in any case, although there are several 'Victor Meldrews' who FISO there, they do not do that sort of thing. In the 25L/25R debate I assume you are referring to circuit direction as opposed to multiple runways, in which case Blackbushe has a runway 25 with circuits to the south; work it out for yourself!!

Last edited by chevvron; 19th Dec 2012 at 17:16.
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 17:16   #29 (permalink)
 
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This whole thread reads in true law talking dude style. 'Who can I blame and who can I file against?' as opposed to 'whoops, sorry?'
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 18:09   #30 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath Row
So two questions, do the CAA regulate this service ?

And should I bother to complain to the airfield and or the CAA?
The UK CAA regulate Aerodrome FIS provision in the UK.
If you wish to make a complaint contact the CAA Inspector ATS 01293 573352.
The airfield itself might not take any action.

The FISO in question, wherever he/she is, is letting the side down and should be taken to the cleaners, if not, a shrink.
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 18:20   #31 (permalink)
 
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Making mischief again TDM? Why not give the tower a ring and talk about it?
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 18:44   #32 (permalink)
 
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Plazbot - what crap. I said I'd happily take a rebuke, but lets not forget: 1. The mindset of the pilot has a direct correlation to safety, and, 2. I'm paying for that service.

Would expect a checkout assistant to speak to you like that in fortnum, or where ever you shop? Or how about your lawyer?

If I spoke to a client like that, I'd be disbarred, no two ways about it.

So yes, I thought I'd gauge reaction and then consider whether to complain. Given the protective nature of some ATS operators it appears to me that complaining is absolutely the right thing to do.
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 23:28   #33 (permalink)
 
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Heath Row,

In answer to your questions:-

1) Do the CAA regulate this service ?

Yes. All Flight Informations Service Officers (FISOs) are licensed by the CAA and are subject to competency checks every two years. Additionally the Air Navigation Service Provider is subject to an annual audit by the CAA.

2) Should I bother to complain to the airfield and or the CAA?

In the first instance I would suggest that a face-to-face discussion (not over the radio) with the FISO may resolve the situation. If not then a complaint to the airfield would be appropriate. If neither of these work then it would be appropriate to raise a Mandatory Occurrence Report (MOR) which is sent to the CAA. The text book answer would be that you should raise an MOR but the first two steps may be more pragmatic and produce better results.

It is worth remembering that the recollection of the two parties involved, yourself and the FISO, may be different. In the past I was involved in the management of an Air Traffic Control Unit, where there is a mandatory requirement that all radio transmissions are recorded; unlike a FISO unit where recording is only recommended. On one occasion I received a complaint from a pilot about an Air Traffic Control Officer (ATCO) and also a complaint from the ATCO about the pilot. Both reports were clear, lucid, unambiguous but varied in vital details. A replay of the recordings showed that both reports were mainly correct but that each report had vital errors and omissions which showed that neither party was either entirely guilty or entirely blame free.
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 10:14   #34 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Why not give the tower a ring and talk about it?
With such an attitude as that (allegedly) displayed by the FISO in question on the R/T, I'd expect that only to lead to more verbal abuse from him. Since my main concern would then no longer be the safe conduct of the flight my reaction would be very different than while airborne and it would only escalate matters. Much better to go through official channels and then let them sort it out without emotional involvement (well, except for the FISO in question, but his emotional issues are and should remain his only ).

Last edited by Dg800; 20th Dec 2012 at 10:15.
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 11:37   #35 (permalink)
 
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Agree entirely with Dg800.

Heath Row - any chance of correcting the thread title on the listing under "ATC Issues"? Come to think of it, it doesn't qualify!

2 s

Last edited by 2 sheds; 20th Dec 2012 at 11:39.
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 11:59   #36 (permalink)
 
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Sure qualifies as a great tear thread. Must have run out of tissues by now.
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 13:47   #37 (permalink)
 
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2S - I've tried, without much success! If a Mod wishes to do so, I'd not object.
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 14:40   #38 (permalink)
 
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An exchange on RTF of this nature, and you don't know who is listening, only brings the FISO profession into disrepute, a simple correction to the readback would have been perfectly sufficient.
I'm always afraid that a 'rebuke' of this nature, especially to someone about to depart (no matter how many hours they have) might 'prey' on their mind causing them to 'miss out' a vital action before takeoff so I would either save it until they return, or if not returning, ask them to phone after they land.
Heath Row: I would suggest you contact the senior FISO at your airfield (if there is one) and ask to visit and observe what goes on in the tower. It's probably not a lot of good complaining to the airport authority as often they have little knowledge of ATS procedures, and would tend to refer it to the FISOs anyway.
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 17:04   #39 (permalink)
 
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You should always complain about ATC, its the nature of the beast......
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 19:24   #40 (permalink)
 
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INTERNATIONALATCO: It's best not to comment on things on this forum unless you're sober.
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