Large Airports/Controlled Airspace - Who lets you through?

[Whirlybird]

I thought about making this a subject for a thread when I was planning a route from Gloucester to Oban for next Monday, for the start of our flying holiday. Gloucester - Carlisle, refuel; then straight to Oban. Ah, but Glasgow's in the way. Will they let us through their zone? I've no idea; never been anywhere near there. We can ask of course. But then we'll have to plan a route around them as well, or do it in the air. None of those are a big deal, but this is a holiday, not an RT test or nav ex, and it's a lot less hassle to plan one route, going round their zone, that's marginally longer. So, I thought...

Wouldn't it be useful to have a thread where people could post from their own knowledge and experience, about particular areas, airfields, zones etc.

OK, I'll start. I've always flown from airfields in Wales and the West Midlands, where we're lucky enough to have loads of uncontrolled airspace. So my experience is somewhat limited. But I've found that Birmingham will almost always let you through their zone. However, they may keep you waiting around first, so it's sometimes quicker to route around anyway. I've heard that Liverpool will usually let you through, though I've only once been that way myself. Manchester ATCOs, on the other hand, don't seem to know how to say anything except: "Remain clear of controlled airspace". A few years ago on a trip up North, Newcastle cleared us through before we even asked, and I've heard that this is not unusual. Actually, since we didn't know the area we'd planned to route around, but it seemed churlish to refuse their kind offer, so we rapidly re-planned that one, ie turned it into a straight line rather than a series of short legs. :)

That's about all I can think of. So...for a start...does anyone know about Glasgow?

[Evo]

nope, but Solent are usually very helpful :)

[flower]

98% of the time you will get a clearance from Cardiff, as for Birmingham I would think its getting less and less likely you will get one as they are so busy unless you are transiting down there Western/Eastern sides.
Just be prepared to change altitudes, tracks etc and also advise on contact with ATC that you are able to do so. With some airfields it is probably quicker to plan to divert around them.

[Dave Gittins]

My experience in the south east is that Luton are the most friendly of people and will accomodate wherever they can - although they don't do a LARS anymore, Thames are pretty accomodating, I've been through their overhead via Canary Wharf at 2400 a time or two. Had to refuse being sent over London Bridge in a PA28 once though.

Solent (as has already been said) are fine. Farnborough provide the FIS for most of the area from Fairoaks south and west and always let you through their patch, Odiham, Blackbushe keep a sharp lookout at Lasham etc.

The only people I have never ever got a passage from are Essex Radar (Stansted) even one day offered to take an IFR and go over the top but nothing doing.

There is a long post somewhere about Heathrow (revitalised on the GA site about 3 weeks ago) (with a lot of good posts from the LHR ATC guys) who will allow corners to be cut from Fairoaks via Ascot and Burnham (subject to which way the wind's blowing).

My early days at Manchester (flying at Barton) they used to do a RIS (edit: it was more likely FIS) down the low level corridor but I believe these days it's best not to even call them. just keep in the corridor (assumedly with a 7000 squawk) and keep 1250 on QNH.

That's the limit of what I can remember at the minute.

DGG

[Aerobatic Flyer]

In my experience, likelihood of a transit is directly related to how competent you sound when asking. Fluff your lines, and you'll be told to remain clear of controlled airspace!

In addition to the above mentioned sites, Brize Norton are unfailingly helpful and will always let you through if they can.

On this side of the channel (the sunny, South side :) ), half the controlled airspace seems to become uncontrolled at weekends and at lunchtime - which makes life much simpler! When they're open, though, the same applies - ask nicely and they'll let you through. I've never been refused a transit through Lyon's zone, and on occasion have been routed overhead Lyon airport, which is the busiest regional airport in France.

[flower]

Fluffing your lines makes absolutely no difference whatsoever in gaining a transit trust me. I fluff my lines from time to time to.
The only thing we tend to do if you sound how can I put it not so aware is to warn other ATCOs on duty to keep a close watch on you, just to make sure you are keeping to the clearance issued.
:p

[CSX001]

Most zones are very happy to let people cross. Stansted once had a dreadful reputation, and yet are now very happy to help unless traffic levels are obviously a burdon.

It is easier to list those who seem to find GA a problem.

Luton is now great, but around the time they dropped out of LARS, there were some definite political games being played and GA got a very poor deal for a few months.

Birmingham are pretty dreadful neither offering transits nor anything other than then occasional FIS.


I have always been pretty sure that RT plays a part in determining if a clearance is going to be offered - at least when traffic volumes are high. Your ATC licence is placed at risk by every plonker who screws up in your zone, and RT is an indicator of sorts when it comes to the pilot's familiarity with operating in and around controlled airspace. Stumbling over lines is perhaps less important than not reading back every single item of information given to you in a very slow John Major accent whilst getting basic items like QNH wrong

:D

Charlie

[gasax]

To directly answer your query, Glasgow will let you through- even if you sound like a complete plonker, if you route a little to the east Edinburgh will also let you through, but sometimes with slightly more hassle.

Coming up the east side Newcastle/Teeside are excellent at giving transits.

Leeds/Bradford well yes but.

Birmingham not bad, ditto Liverpool.

Manchester - remain clear blah blah

Aberdeen - pretty good will almost always let you through.

The MATZs Leuchars and Lossiemouth tend to be OK unless htere is an exercise on, or unless their gliders or piston trainers are around at the weekend and then you get 'cleared MATZ penetration at 3000' dugh....

Enjoy the serious scenery and don't get downwind of the hills!

[knobbygb]

East Midlands are usually no problem - you can route through via the entry/exit lanes to the east of the field, traffic permitting. If they're busy you may have to wait or go a little further east.

Leeds OK too - I've twice been invited throug their zone when I didn't even want to - I think they were bored :bored:

As for Manchester, no experience actually up in the air, but I live just under the eastern extremity of the CTR and we get perhaps four or five light aircraft a week going low overhead, most transitting, but the odd one obviously just sightseeing. This seems to be only when 06 in use.

Whirly, do you find that there is more/less chance of getting a clearance in a rotary? Does the ability to hover and wait for a gap in the traffic make any difference?

[Circuit Basher]

Whirly - relating to your trip (I won't start the debate on Solent, who have previously on more than one occasion kept me on standby, orbiting just inside EGHH zone, for 10's of minutes to let their single item IFR traffic depart :( :( ), attached is my 1.5p worth.

From experience, Edinburgh have never refused me entry, but may ask for altered routings / altitudes to stay clear of IFR traffic - you may occasionally need to orbit at the zone boundary while you try to get a word in edgeways or get a progressive clearance through the zone if you want to fly through the overhead. EDI ATC are *very* helpful generally and will try to give you a 'tourist clearance' direct over the City Centre when traffic permits - that's always a good one and I always cross my fingers if anyone asks questions about Rule 5 ;) ;)

Glasgow has never been a problem (well, on the once I've been in their airspace!).

Dundee has never been a problem (well, on the once I've been in their airspace!).

Benbecula were very helpful on the two occasions I've been in their airspace.

As gasax says, Leuchars will try to give clearance into their MATZ whenever possible, but there is is a lot of fast jet activity on some days which can give you a sore neck trying to find the traffic!!

Further South:
Carlisle were very helpful when I made a precautionary landing due wx on my way down to Sherburn. I was more or less given a 'come in any direction you want from whichever entry point you choose, land if possible on tarmac and try to give a finals call' type clearance!! ;) ;) Whilst being totally certain of my position but unfamiliar with the field and not having originally planned to land there, that saved a bit of workload planning the circuit!

Newcastle were quite pleasant when I transitted alongside their zone (entry not required).

Teeside - refer to Newcastle comments.

Leeds Bradford were very helpful when I transitted their zone on my way to Sherburn, despite handling a lot of traffic.

[Penguina]

Flower,

Just wondering - if bad RT makes no difference to a clearance but you keep a closer eye on the fluffers, do the competent sounding ones get left more to their own devices when receiving a service?

Reason I was wondering was because I accidentally :) managed what I felt was some fairly good radio work on a sunny Saturday around Brize recently and suspected I was left alone so they could concentrate on the foreign sounding guy that kept saying say again, etc. This is not a complaint! I like being left to my own devices and wasn't expecting much of a service at all on such a day anyway. Just wondering if unofficially this is how it works.

[Dan Dare]

Flower, I disagree re RTF. It is human nature to take the easy option and confident/competant RTF is FAR more likely to result in ATC service or a non-standard request being granted than some muppet giving their life story for half an hour. Yes we all fluff our lines sometimes and a missing piece of information may result in an extra radio exchange, but nobody really minds that.

On the other hand the slow/life story scenario will be more likely to get ROCAS FIS (remain outside controlled airspace, Flight information service). Mabee not fair, but thats life.

Going IFR will not help you to get transit/direct track in itself, but picking an appropriate level may. Obviously not really an option in SE England, but possibly a help elsewhere in the UK.

I have sat next to ATCOs saying that they will not provide a service to tiddlers because they don't pay the wages, but (I hope) they are rare and most will help if they possibly can.

[Warped Factor]

Usually flying a non transponder equipped a/c I never bother asking to transit zones, doesn't take much extra time to go around.

Doing the day job this morning though I happily cleared a number of non revenue earning customers, both fixed and rotary, flying at the lower levels through Gatwick CAS.

Even gave some radar services outside the zone for no extra charge :)

WF.

[flower]

Dan Dare,
I cannot under any circumstance refuse someone a clearance through Class D airspace because there RT is not up to scratch, it is quite frankly more than my job is worth. I can refuse because the zone is to busy etc but not because someone isn't to hot with the radio.
Do you get treated differently , how can i treat you differently as I said, the only thing we do is issue very specific instructions and possibly keep an extra eye on them , that is human nature.

As for ATCOs saying those things about GA I would hope they are firmly in the minority, however some units are not there to provide certain air traffic services and will possibly only provide the bare minimum such as an alerting service. Each unit is funded differently and some do not get paid to offer a service to GA.

[Whirlybird]

knobby,
I wouldn't have thought flying a helicopter made any difference. We can't really hover safely at height (too much risk of vortex ring, and takes lots of power) so we tend to orbit like everyone else if asked to hold. OTOH, all the heli pilots I know reckon getting clearance through Birmingham's zone is easy, and flower , who should know, said it isn't. But I haven't tried recently, so if they're getting busier maybe that's what's made the difference.

[WorkingHard]

For what it's worth - UK ATC with only one exception is the best there is. Professional, helpful, and caring (and no I am not ATC I am a pilot). The exception in 20 years or so of flying has become Essex. It is perhaps just perception but the service to GA seems to have gone down and down to the extent of perhaps being dangerous. An example - we were transitting northwards and had been kept fairly high by the last radar giving us RIS when we then had to free call Essex. No problem except that we were by then good VMC on top and we called Essex for a service - no service keep clear of controlled airspace etc. We then asked for a brief RIS to decend to VMC below. Response "I can see nothing to affect, remain clear of controlled airspace at all times"
The moral - just leave Essex alone

[bluskis]

Apparently Essex are not permitted to behave in the way they are said to do, so why leave them alone.

Nothing wrong with a bit of name and shame if they cant humanise.

[Alastair B]

During one of my later lessons we planned to route through Luton's zone. Whilst on frequency and waiting our turn we listened to another pilot making the request. His R/T was non standard and he gave a very vague route - the ATCO asked several times for clarification of his intended route - and when he failed to get a satisfactory answer he gave an exhasperated sounding "G-xx, you are NOT cleared through the zone, remain outside controlled airspace."

We quietly gave up our plan and routed around his zone.

I guess that's a little more then "fluffing your lines" but it did seem that sounding competent could make the difference.

Ali

[ATCbabe]

Whirlssssss,



Oban is lovely this time of year, good choice:)

You shouldn't have a problem getting through Glasgow's airspace, they are generally helpful.

PS Circiut basher, stop telling peeps we great at edi, or they will all wanna come through and you will find yourself going round the zone ;) ;)

PPS .... wits rule 5??????:p

[Keef]

Some years ago, Essex had a reputation for refusing transits (and did so to me a few times). More recently, I've had nothing but friendly, helpful responses from them.

If it's going to take me a couple of minutes more to route round CAS, I don't bother to call. If it's a long detour, I do. That seems to work fine every time.

Flower knows better than I do - but I've found that a confident, clear, straightforward call and request will get what's asked for, and a long rambling vague one will more likely get the polite refusal.

One that did surprise me - asking for "LARS" will almost always get a "say service requested" - so I ask for RIS (or RAS if under IFR) and that seems to work fine.

[Timothy]

There is a long discussion about this topic here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95386&perpage=15&pagenumber=1).

I am in the "sound good, fly professional, and they will be good and professional back to you" camp.

W

[bookworm]

I keep launching straight at the Stansted CTR in the hope that one of these days I'll witness this legendary unfriendliness from Essex Radar and I can write to Pilot magazine in disgust. Unfortunately I've been disappointed every time as they seem to treat me with the same professionalism and positive attitude as the rest of their customers as they thread me straight through the sstream of inbounds. :)

We've all had the very occasional bad experience with ATC (and we've all had the occasional off day as pilots!) but I think it's dangerous to generalise.

[flower]

OK folks,
is anyone willing to tell me they have been refused a zone transit because there RT has been poor or is it all hearsay.
The example given was in fact by the sounds of it because the person was unable to give their routing request, and yes I have refused airspace entry for that very reason as I'm obliged to know exactly your routing if I'm allowing you inside CAS.

Sounding professional on the RT is great and yes it makes my job a lot easier but rest assured you will not be refused Zone transit because you are slow or take a couple of attempts to grasp what is being said to you.

Zone transits are refused for a number of reasons not being great on the RT is not one

[CSX001]

I would guess that an ATCO thinking about allowing a transit will gauge their response based on many factors.

Traffic conditions, speed of the requesting aircraft, accuracy with which instructions are being followed, speed and competence of readback.

In the back of the mind or otherwise, you are not going to convince me that given a tight window to get somebody across a zone, an ATCO will not use all of the information available to him/her to decide whether to offer a transit.

Everybody relaxes when the traffic volumes are lower, so perhaps RT quality is one of the first criteria to be dropped in slack times?

Not for nothing is Communicate placed closely behind Aviate and Navigate.


Charlie

[Timothy]

Flower

How much are you talking for yourself, for Cardiff ATC or for ATCOs the length and breadth of the land, d'ya reckon?

Cardiff is great, but the demands on it must be much less than on Thames, Luton or Brum (d'ya agree?). Maybe you have a greater luxury in being able to let people through that you are less confident in?

W

[flower]

If I had only ever worked at Cardiff , had absolutely no contact with my colleagues at other units and thought in isolation then your comments would be true.
I find it quite awful that you would think that we consider that people who's RT isn't top notch are unworthy of zone transits.

For those who actually know and understand Cardiff's Airspace they would be aware that although we haven't the ATM's of places such as Birmingham we have a much more complex traffic situation with another airfield situated within our zone in which fast military aircraft fly (and yes I know Birmingham very well having worked there for many years)
All the comments are assumptions they are not based on fact, if anyone can prove it to me prove it.
If the zone is to busy , if there is instrument training going on, perhaps a navigation aid has failed making the controllers job more intense then yes a zone transit is unlikely. I see others have said that if they don't transpond they don't ask for zone transit, why not if we can identify you what is the problem. (I believe it is a fellow ATCO who said that and perhaps he is aware of local difficulties there)

Of course I would far rather everyone was great at RT and I don't think enough emphasis is placed on it in training but to be refused a transit ,sorry guys thats cobblers.

[Bright-Ling]

Flower

I don't think you are seeing the point.

Me thinks that WCollins is quite correct. I personally don't refuse a zone transit purely because the person is stumbling on the RT, but I do refuse IF it is busy and I can't afford to spend time nurturing them. To sum: I am penalizing them (for want of a better word) because I am too busy - not for being poor on the RT.

When it is not busy, we do all we can to help people - but if busy a short, sharp request and readback increases the likelihood of a crossing immensely!

I see on the CWL plate that you have 7 or 8 of routes published that you can let VFR aircraft fly, with 8 r 9 VRP's. Oh for that luxury.

Without pee-ing off my chums at Cardiff - if you are doing LARS and Approach on one freq it can't be that busy!!!

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/stupid.gif

[flower]

We do not do LARS and approach on one frequency and if you saw our new airspace you would see that we have an intensely large chunk of airspace which is very complex, however all zone transits are placed on the approach frequency so that all aircraft flying within the zone are on the same frequency.

We have airways upto FL165 which extend in total to 140 miles we have a busy LARS service and are an approach unit to to a Military airfield , we do the intermediate approach to most traffic into Bristol, and a number into Exeter and Swansea , as we have a UHF frequency we have a great deal of military aircraft flying receiving a service, it is without a doubt one of the most interesting radar units in the country and we do our damnedest to provide the best service we can, however I do not believe we are unique in doing do.

[Bright-Ling]

A bite in record time?!?!?

back to the thread...........

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/aircraft/FMSonabout.gif

[vintage ATCO]

I'm with Bright-Ling ;)


VA

[flower]

Bright ling
just perhaps I am trying to tell people to try for airspace transits even if they are not to hot on the RT .
having to advise you that even a complex unit such as Cardiff does it with no qualms is supposed to let people know we arn't all ar***oles trying to catch people out.

Think Ive bitten then so be it, but maybe some of us here arn't interested in scoring points and wish to offer practical and encouraging advice to people

[Bright-Ling]

Well done you!!

No-one I know is trying to catch pilots out - just agreeing with all except you that R/T is important if you want to do a complex or exact crossing. We will help when we can, but sometimes we are too busy and have little airspace (I dream of saying FL160!!)

cheers VA (I trust yr rtn leg was quicker last night??!)

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/1signrunaway.gif

[Whirlybird]

Flower,
I'm not at all an expert on this, but it's accepted to the point of being common knowledge among helicopter pilots, that if you want to fly the London Helicopter Routes your RT has to sound professional or they'll ask you to route around. Heathrow is really busy, and just can't cope with heli pilots who can't follow instructions quickly. And a Heathrow ATCO once told me in chat that he told an R44 to get out of the zone because "he didn't know what he was doing"...sounded like he was unsure on the RT. I know the London Heli-routes aren't typical, but there must be other places with that sort of workload, whojust haven't got the time to nurse people along. At least, I would have thought so.

[2Donkeys]

Add my vote to the professional RT believers' side.


2D


(Vintage ATCO and I had a lovely run back last night <1 hr.)

[Warped Factor]

flower,

I see others have said that if they don't transpond they don't ask for zone transit, why not if we can identify you what is the problem. (I believe it is a fellow ATCO who said that and perhaps he is aware of local difficulties there)

That was me.

There's no problem or local difficulties, I just try to use the radio as little as possible when flying, maybe because I use it all day when I'm at work :)

I know I can be turned or whatever to be identified for a zone transit, but if all the extra hassle on what is just a pleasant little jolly is only going to save me five or ten minutes, why bother? Just the way I see/do it.

----

When doing the day job there are only two things I think I probably consider when I get a call for zone transits or a request for a radar service outside CAS (non LARS unit), and they are volume of other traffic (primarily the paying customers) and my workload, and all situations are different.

Zone transits should be relatively straightforward if a little common sense is applied in the flight planning stages. I know it's Class D, (we're talking Gatwick here) but if you ask to route through a 5 mile final at 1,500ft it just isn't going to happen for reasons that have been covered on these fora and many others before. But a clearance won't be refused, it will be modified slightly from what was requested.

RIS outside CAS is dependent on many things, not the least of which is that neither of the units I do approach for are LARS units. That said at Gatwick we do provide FIS on demand and most will provide RIS if at all possible. RIS is a time consuming task though, both in terms of r/t usage and having to keep scanning for conflicting traffic. If busy with IFRs and sequencing it is not always possible to guarantee that one will be able to devote the necessary amount of time to the task (RIS). It's not acceptable to say you'll provide the RIS and then fail to call conflicting traffic because you didn't notice it as you were too busy doing something else. Bye bye licence, employment and probably freedom for a while in that scenario if anything goes wrong.

Also always worth bearing in mind is that for the main London airports (which are all non LARS units), providing services to VFR traffic at the lower levels outside (and inside) CAS is officially not a priority. We have standing instructions that such traffic is not to interfere with normal IFR airways traffic operating into and out of the airfields.

Not ideal from the GA point of view, but these are the rules we have to work within.

Enough rambling.

WF

p.s. r/t standards......it's usually obvious whether it is a nervous/new PPL or an older hand who for whatever reason is incapable of using the r/t proficiently. Both can be handled in an appropriate manner.

[Timothy]

Flower

Wow! what a lot of posts since yesterday evening.

I only wanted to point out that I asked questions, I didn't make allegations. :)

As I said on the other thread, I always fly in straight lines, regardless of airspace (exception being Manch), I fly quite a lot, and I am very, very rarely refused (I think three times in the last couple of years, twice at LCY and once at LUT). That is probably out of a total of several hundred requests.

If everyone had that record (let's say 98% success), threads such as these simply wouldn't exist.

Therefore the average success must be lower than mine. Why should it be? There are a number of possible explanations (the kit I fly - an Aztec - is a little faster than average; I fly more in the week than at weekends; I can accept IFR or VFR etc) but I still believe that the main factor is that I have been flying a long time (32 years) both as an amateur and a pro and have developed the "voice", know what I want and where I want to go and I know the buttons to press. My ATCO friends in the SE seem to agree.

But hey! If you let people through without regard to their apparent skill level or RT clarity more power to your elbow, I'm all for it!

W

[flower]

I had not wanted to post on this again as it seems that people vehemently disagree with me.
The helicopter routes within the Heathrow zone are complex and require a great deal of skill to follow, Whirly again the suggestion you gave to me was that the ATCO felt the Pilot hadn't understood what was required of him/her.
We have a gentlemen who flys out of my airfield who's piloting skills can not be questioned however his RT is atrocious. Two of our instructors based at Cardiff first language is not English and they can sound to those not used to them as not to hot on the RT.
Just 3 people who fly locally but other airfields would by your definition not allow them to transit whereas they are all excellent pilots.
99% of the time my RT is spot on , perfect then i get that one moment where my tongue sticks to my mouth and gibberish comes out, the Flight crews be they professional or GA must think they have an idiot controlling them at that time.
There is no doubt good RT is an asset and i think people should work very hard on it but as has been mentioned on more than one post both here in Private Flyers and the ATC forums it is well down the list of priorities.
Gut feeling is a wonderful tool, and one by which many controllers operate, the system in use at my unit by the majority of ATCOs is that the LARS crosser will have called up on the LARS frequency advised they are looking for zone transit . The LARS controller will at some point in time co-ordinate with the approach controller for a zone transit, by which time it would be fair to say a picture of the pilots skills may have been established, should there be any concerns maybe an alternative clearance will be given however someone with limited skills too probably requires the direct routing rather than the extended routing around the zone.
I have yet to to establish that poor RT skills go hand in hand with poor piloting skills.
RT should be worked at it isn't hard but if people with poor RT skills feel they will be penalized then the likelihood of them contacting an ATC unit diminishes and there skills may never improve.
Maybe I'm on a mission who knows but I say again I will not judge your piloting skills on your RT only on your piloting skills

[Whirlybird]

flower,

I hope I didn't sound vehement; I didn't intend to be...but I occasionally get accused of it so I'll make that clear anyway. ;)

The London Heli-Routes do require a certain amount of skill to follow...they're not that hard if you slow down and you have the relevant map. However, they don't necessarily require good RT skills. As you've said, the two don't necessarily go together...especially in the case where the pilot's first language is not English - good example of yours. Yet most of the helicopter pilots and instructors I know seem to agree that your first radio call must be good, or Heathrow won't let you in the zone. The example I gave before was perhaps not a good one; the problem could have been piloting skills not RT. But I'm just wondering if:

a) The London Heli-Routes are a special case, for access and RT fluency required
b) All of us heli pilots have got it wrong as to what's required (not unheard of ;) )
c) Heathrow are of course really busy, and maybe the same thing could happen in other zones if they're really busy.

I'm not arguing with you; I'd just like to know. And I think it's absolutely fantastic, and as it should be, that you personally give people clearances if you can, regardless of their RT standards. I'm just not yet convinced that all your colleagues do the same.

[foghorn]

I've crossed many a CTR/CTA in Southern and North-East England, most frequently Luton and Solent, I've only ever been rejected once and that was by Solent, however it was the usual gin-clear summer weekend scenario with every man and his dog calling for CTR crossing, so was probably a workload-related refusal.

[Warped Factor]

Re the London Zone heli-routes.

R/T quality was never an issue for me, what was a major issue, because of the proximity of the routes to Heathrow traffic, was how accurately they were flown both lateraly and vertically.

When flying the routes you are usually being watched by a controller who's prime function is to control a/c flying these routes and their vicinity so transgressions will be picked up very quickly.

I don't think you'd be refused access because your r/t wasn't 100% perfect, but if once in you prove you can't fly the routes accurately don't be surprised if you are invited to leave the zone by the shortest possible routeing.

A number of incidents of heli's following the A4 instead of the M4 eventually led to that part of H2 being closed permanently.

It's nothing personal in such cases, it's a flight safety issue.

WF.

[Mr Wolfie]

Flower,

As a very new PPL and one of those who recently took up your kind offer (through PPRUNE) of a day with Cardiff ATC, I am happy to say that you and your colleagues have helped to reduce my "fear" of cocking up when asking for clearances, by letting us to see the friendly and helpful faces behind the "stern" voices on the radio. Your posts on this thread also reinforce the fact that most ATC'ers are there to help and oblige low hours PPL's such as myself as much as possible. Many, many thanks for this.

However, I have to say that I still find myself sitting in the other camp - > Bad R/T = "Remain clear of Controlled Airspace". Firstly, its down to human nature. But secondly, have a look at Section 10 of the CAA Safety Sense leaflet on Radiotelephony. This contains the following quote plus a couple of examples of both good and bad R/T.

" A radio call
delivered in a professional manner
will be treated accordingly, whereas,
a poorly structured and hesitant call
will probably lead the controller to
question the pilot’s ability to
understand and follow instructions.
If there is any doubt, the ATCO will
not issue a clearance to transit
controlled airspace without adequate
separation from other traffic."

The good example of RT in the leaflet gets a clearance, the bad example gets a "Remain Clear of CAS".

Safety Sense leaflet available here- http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/224/ssl22.pdf

So sorry Flower, but even the CAA seems to think you should be turning bumbling idiots (such as myself) down.:hmm:

Mr. W:)

[IO540]

Mr Wolfie

The good example of RT in the leaflet gets a clearance, the bad example gets a "Remain Clear of CAS".

I agree with this. I was sitting in the back of a plane last year when the pilot (an ATPL flying BA 747s) completely casually asked Gatwick for an overhead transit at a few thousand feet, and got it. It was fun looking down at the Gatwick runway.

The other day I flew 2 miles outside of a Class A CTA (10nm dia circle) and they told me I was infringing it. I knew exactly where I was (GPS, DME to their ILS, and later just to drive the point home I got a radar range from them!!) and knew this was untrue, so after landing I phoned up the very ATCO; he told me they get so many "VFR pilots" busting their CTA that they tell them they are infringing even when they are not!! Sadly I have to say that with the navigation techniques taught in the PPL this comes as no suprise - but that's another subject!

[Port Strobe]

Glasgow shouldn't be a problem at all in my experience, flown through numerous times going to Cumbernauld mainly (from Prestwick) and I've never been refused entry so far, sometimes in a non transponder equipped a/c in addition to fluffing lines! :O I'm sure if you ask them nicely they'll let you through or at worst ask you to orbit for a few mins if a bit of traffic crops up. Good luck with the trip.