Large Airports/Controlled Airspace - Who lets you through?
The Original Whirly
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Large Airports/Controlled Airspace - Who lets you through?
I thought about making this a subject for a thread when I was planning a route from Gloucester to Oban for next Monday, for the start of our flying holiday. Gloucester - Carlisle, refuel; then straight to Oban. Ah, but Glasgow's in the way. Will they let us through their zone? I've no idea; never been anywhere near there. We can ask of course. But then we'll have to plan a route around them as well, or do it in the air. None of those are a big deal, but this is a holiday, not an RT test or nav ex, and it's a lot less hassle to plan one route, going round their zone, that's marginally longer. So, I thought...
Wouldn't it be useful to have a thread where people could post from their own knowledge and experience, about particular areas, airfields, zones etc.
OK, I'll start. I've always flown from airfields in Wales and the West Midlands, where we're lucky enough to have loads of uncontrolled airspace. So my experience is somewhat limited. But I've found that Birmingham will almost always let you through their zone. However, they may keep you waiting around first, so it's sometimes quicker to route around anyway. I've heard that Liverpool will usually let you through, though I've only once been that way myself. Manchester ATCOs, on the other hand, don't seem to know how to say anything except: "Remain clear of controlled airspace". A few years ago on a trip up North, Newcastle cleared us through before we even asked, and I've heard that this is not unusual. Actually, since we didn't know the area we'd planned to route around, but it seemed churlish to refuse their kind offer, so we rapidly re-planned that one, ie turned it into a straight line rather than a series of short legs.
That's about all I can think of. So...for a start...does anyone know about Glasgow?
Wouldn't it be useful to have a thread where people could post from their own knowledge and experience, about particular areas, airfields, zones etc.
OK, I'll start. I've always flown from airfields in Wales and the West Midlands, where we're lucky enough to have loads of uncontrolled airspace. So my experience is somewhat limited. But I've found that Birmingham will almost always let you through their zone. However, they may keep you waiting around first, so it's sometimes quicker to route around anyway. I've heard that Liverpool will usually let you through, though I've only once been that way myself. Manchester ATCOs, on the other hand, don't seem to know how to say anything except: "Remain clear of controlled airspace". A few years ago on a trip up North, Newcastle cleared us through before we even asked, and I've heard that this is not unusual. Actually, since we didn't know the area we'd planned to route around, but it seemed churlish to refuse their kind offer, so we rapidly re-planned that one, ie turned it into a straight line rather than a series of short legs.
That's about all I can think of. So...for a start...does anyone know about Glasgow?
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98% of the time you will get a clearance from Cardiff, as for Birmingham I would think its getting less and less likely you will get one as they are so busy unless you are transiting down there Western/Eastern sides.
Just be prepared to change altitudes, tracks etc and also advise on contact with ATC that you are able to do so. With some airfields it is probably quicker to plan to divert around them.
Just be prepared to change altitudes, tracks etc and also advise on contact with ATC that you are able to do so. With some airfields it is probably quicker to plan to divert around them.
Who let's you through
My experience in the south east is that Luton are the most friendly of people and will accomodate wherever they can - although they don't do a LARS anymore, Thames are pretty accomodating, I've been through their overhead via Canary Wharf at 2400 a time or two. Had to refuse being sent over London Bridge in a PA28 once though.
Solent (as has already been said) are fine. Farnborough provide the FIS for most of the area from Fairoaks south and west and always let you through their patch, Odiham, Blackbushe keep a sharp lookout at Lasham etc.
The only people I have never ever got a passage from are Essex Radar (Stansted) even one day offered to take an IFR and go over the top but nothing doing.
There is a long post somewhere about Heathrow (revitalised on the GA site about 3 weeks ago) (with a lot of good posts from the LHR ATC guys) who will allow corners to be cut from Fairoaks via Ascot and Burnham (subject to which way the wind's blowing).
My early days at Manchester (flying at Barton) they used to do a RIS (edit: it was more likely FIS) down the low level corridor but I believe these days it's best not to even call them. just keep in the corridor (assumedly with a 7000 squawk) and keep 1250 on QNH.
That's the limit of what I can remember at the minute.
DGG
Solent (as has already been said) are fine. Farnborough provide the FIS for most of the area from Fairoaks south and west and always let you through their patch, Odiham, Blackbushe keep a sharp lookout at Lasham etc.
The only people I have never ever got a passage from are Essex Radar (Stansted) even one day offered to take an IFR and go over the top but nothing doing.
There is a long post somewhere about Heathrow (revitalised on the GA site about 3 weeks ago) (with a lot of good posts from the LHR ATC guys) who will allow corners to be cut from Fairoaks via Ascot and Burnham (subject to which way the wind's blowing).
My early days at Manchester (flying at Barton) they used to do a RIS (edit: it was more likely FIS) down the low level corridor but I believe these days it's best not to even call them. just keep in the corridor (assumedly with a 7000 squawk) and keep 1250 on QNH.
That's the limit of what I can remember at the minute.
DGG
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In my experience, likelihood of a transit is directly related to how competent you sound when asking. Fluff your lines, and you'll be told to remain clear of controlled airspace!
In addition to the above mentioned sites, Brize Norton are unfailingly helpful and will always let you through if they can.
On this side of the channel (the sunny, South side ), half the controlled airspace seems to become uncontrolled at weekends and at lunchtime - which makes life much simpler! When they're open, though, the same applies - ask nicely and they'll let you through. I've never been refused a transit through Lyon's zone, and on occasion have been routed overhead Lyon airport, which is the busiest regional airport in France.
In addition to the above mentioned sites, Brize Norton are unfailingly helpful and will always let you through if they can.
On this side of the channel (the sunny, South side
), half the controlled airspace seems to become uncontrolled at weekends and at lunchtime - which makes life much simpler! When they're open, though, the same applies - ask nicely and they'll let you through. I've never been refused a transit through Lyon's zone, and on occasion have been routed overhead Lyon airport, which is the busiest regional airport in France.
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Fluffing your lines makes absolutely no difference whatsoever in gaining a transit trust me. I fluff my lines from time to time to.
The only thing we tend to do if you sound how can I put it not so aware is to warn other ATCOs on duty to keep a close watch on you, just to make sure you are keeping to the clearance issued.
The only thing we tend to do if you sound how can I put it not so aware is to warn other ATCOs on duty to keep a close watch on you, just to make sure you are keeping to the clearance issued.
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Most zones are very happy to let people cross. Stansted once had a dreadful reputation, and yet are now very happy to help unless traffic levels are obviously a burdon.
It is easier to list those who seem to find GA a problem.
Luton is now great, but around the time they dropped out of LARS, there were some definite political games being played and GA got a very poor deal for a few months.
Birmingham are pretty dreadful neither offering transits nor anything other than then occasional FIS.
I have always been pretty sure that RT plays a part in determining if a clearance is going to be offered - at least when traffic volumes are high. Your ATC licence is placed at risk by every plonker who screws up in your zone, and RT is an indicator of sorts when it comes to the pilot's familiarity with operating in and around controlled airspace. Stumbling over lines is perhaps less important than not reading back every single item of information given to you in a very slow John Major accent whilst getting basic items like QNH wrong
Charlie
It is easier to list those who seem to find GA a problem.
Luton is now great, but around the time they dropped out of LARS, there were some definite political games being played and GA got a very poor deal for a few months.
Birmingham are pretty dreadful neither offering transits nor anything other than then occasional FIS.
I have always been pretty sure that RT plays a part in determining if a clearance is going to be offered - at least when traffic volumes are high. Your ATC licence is placed at risk by every plonker who screws up in your zone, and RT is an indicator of sorts when it comes to the pilot's familiarity with operating in and around controlled airspace. Stumbling over lines is perhaps less important than not reading back every single item of information given to you in a very slow John Major accent whilst getting basic items like QNH wrong
Charlie
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To directly answer your query, Glasgow will let you through- even if you sound like a complete plonker, if you route a little to the east Edinburgh will also let you through, but sometimes with slightly more hassle.
Coming up the east side Newcastle/Teeside are excellent at giving transits.
Leeds/Bradford well yes but.
Birmingham not bad, ditto Liverpool.
Manchester - remain clear blah blah
Aberdeen - pretty good will almost always let you through.
The MATZs Leuchars and Lossiemouth tend to be OK unless htere is an exercise on, or unless their gliders or piston trainers are around at the weekend and then you get 'cleared MATZ penetration at 3000' dugh....
Enjoy the serious scenery and don't get downwind of the hills!
Coming up the east side Newcastle/Teeside are excellent at giving transits.
Leeds/Bradford well yes but.
Birmingham not bad, ditto Liverpool.
Manchester - remain clear blah blah
Aberdeen - pretty good will almost always let you through.
The MATZs Leuchars and Lossiemouth tend to be OK unless htere is an exercise on, or unless their gliders or piston trainers are around at the weekend and then you get 'cleared MATZ penetration at 3000' dugh....
Enjoy the serious scenery and don't get downwind of the hills!
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East Midlands are usually no problem - you can route through via the entry/exit lanes to the east of the field, traffic permitting. If they're busy you may have to wait or go a little further east.
Leeds OK too - I've twice been invited throug their zone when I didn't even want to - I think they were bored
As for Manchester, no experience actually up in the air, but I live just under the eastern extremity of the CTR and we get perhaps four or five light aircraft a week going low overhead, most transitting, but the odd one obviously just sightseeing. This seems to be only when 06 in use.
Whirly, do you find that there is more/less chance of getting a clearance in a rotary? Does the ability to hover and wait for a gap in the traffic make any difference?
Leeds OK too - I've twice been invited throug their zone when I didn't even want to - I think they were bored
As for Manchester, no experience actually up in the air, but I live just under the eastern extremity of the CTR and we get perhaps four or five light aircraft a week going low overhead, most transitting, but the odd one obviously just sightseeing. This seems to be only when 06 in use.
Whirly, do you find that there is more/less chance of getting a clearance in a rotary? Does the ability to hover and wait for a gap in the traffic make any difference?
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Whirly - relating to your trip (I won't start the debate on Solent, who have previously on more than one occasion kept me on standby, orbiting just inside EGHH zone, for 10's of minutes to let their single item IFR traffic depart 
), attached is my 1.5p worth.
From experience, Edinburgh have never refused me entry, but may ask for altered routings / altitudes to stay clear of IFR traffic - you may occasionally need to orbit at the zone boundary while you try to get a word in edgeways or get a progressive clearance through the zone if you want to fly through the overhead. EDI ATC are *very* helpful generally and will try to give you a 'tourist clearance' direct over the City Centre when traffic permits - that's always a good one and I always cross my fingers if anyone asks questions about Rule 5
Glasgow has never been a problem (well, on the once I've been in their airspace!).
Dundee has never been a problem (well, on the once I've been in their airspace!).
Benbecula were very helpful on the two occasions I've been in their airspace.
As gasax says, Leuchars will try to give clearance into their MATZ whenever possible, but there is is a lot of fast jet activity on some days which can give you a sore neck trying to find the traffic!!
Further South:
Carlisle were very helpful when I made a precautionary landing due wx on my way down to Sherburn. I was more or less given a 'come in any direction you want from whichever entry point you choose, land if possible on tarmac and try to give a finals call' type clearance!! Whilst being totally certain of my position but unfamiliar with the field and not having originally planned to land there, that saved a bit of workload planning the circuit!
Newcastle were quite pleasant when I transitted alongside their zone (entry not required).
Teeside - refer to Newcastle comments.
Leeds Bradford were very helpful when I transitted their zone on my way to Sherburn, despite handling a lot of traffic.
), attached is my 1.5p worth.From experience, Edinburgh have never refused me entry, but may ask for altered routings / altitudes to stay clear of IFR traffic - you may occasionally need to orbit at the zone boundary while you try to get a word in edgeways or get a progressive clearance through the zone if you want to fly through the overhead. EDI ATC are *very* helpful generally and will try to give you a 'tourist clearance' direct over the City Centre when traffic permits - that's always a good one and I always cross my fingers if anyone asks questions about Rule 5
Glasgow has never been a problem (well, on the once I've been in their airspace!).
Dundee has never been a problem (well, on the once I've been in their airspace!).
Benbecula were very helpful on the two occasions I've been in their airspace.
As gasax says, Leuchars will try to give clearance into their MATZ whenever possible, but there is is a lot of fast jet activity on some days which can give you a sore neck trying to find the traffic!!
Further South:
Carlisle were very helpful when I made a precautionary landing due wx on my way down to Sherburn. I was more or less given a 'come in any direction you want from whichever entry point you choose, land if possible on tarmac and try to give a finals call' type clearance!!
Whilst being totally certain of my position but unfamiliar with the field and not having originally planned to land there, that saved a bit of workload planning the circuit!Newcastle were quite pleasant when I transitted alongside their zone (entry not required).
Teeside - refer to Newcastle comments.
Leeds Bradford were very helpful when I transitted their zone on my way to Sherburn, despite handling a lot of traffic.
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Flower,
Just wondering - if bad RT makes no difference to a clearance but you keep a closer eye on the fluffers, do the competent sounding ones get left more to their own devices when receiving a service?
Reason I was wondering was because I accidentally managed what I felt was some fairly good radio work on a sunny Saturday around Brize recently and suspected I was left alone so they could concentrate on the foreign sounding guy that kept saying say again, etc. This is not a complaint! I like being left to my own devices and wasn't expecting much of a service at all on such a day anyway. Just wondering if unofficially this is how it works.
Just wondering - if bad RT makes no difference to a clearance but you keep a closer eye on the fluffers, do the competent sounding ones get left more to their own devices when receiving a service?
Reason I was wondering was because I accidentally
managed what I felt was some fairly good radio work on a sunny Saturday around Brize recently and suspected I was left alone so they could concentrate on the foreign sounding guy that kept saying say again, etc. This is not a complaint! I like being left to my own devices and wasn't expecting much of a service at all on such a day anyway. Just wondering if unofficially this is how it works.
Flower, I disagree re RTF. It is human nature to take the easy option and confident/competant RTF is FAR more likely to result in ATC service or a non-standard request being granted than some muppet giving their life story for half an hour. Yes we all fluff our lines sometimes and a missing piece of information may result in an extra radio exchange, but nobody really minds that.
On the other hand the slow/life story scenario will be more likely to get ROCAS FIS (remain outside controlled airspace, Flight information service). Mabee not fair, but thats life.
Going IFR will not help you to get transit/direct track in itself, but picking an appropriate level may. Obviously not really an option in SE England, but possibly a help elsewhere in the UK.
I have sat next to ATCOs saying that they will not provide a service to tiddlers because they don't pay the wages, but (I hope) they are rare and most will help if they possibly can.
On the other hand the slow/life story scenario will be more likely to get ROCAS FIS (remain outside controlled airspace, Flight information service). Mabee not fair, but thats life.
Going IFR will not help you to get transit/direct track in itself, but picking an appropriate level may. Obviously not really an option in SE England, but possibly a help elsewhere in the UK.
I have sat next to ATCOs saying that they will not provide a service to tiddlers because they don't pay the wages, but (I hope) they are rare and most will help if they possibly can.
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Usually flying a non transponder equipped a/c I never bother asking to transit zones, doesn't take much extra time to go around.
Doing the day job this morning though I happily cleared a number of non revenue earning customers, both fixed and rotary, flying at the lower levels through Gatwick CAS.
Even gave some radar services outside the zone for no extra charge
WF.
Doing the day job this morning though I happily cleared a number of non revenue earning customers, both fixed and rotary, flying at the lower levels through Gatwick CAS.
Even gave some radar services outside the zone for no extra charge
WF.
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Dan Dare,
I cannot under any circumstance refuse someone a clearance through Class D airspace because there RT is not up to scratch, it is quite frankly more than my job is worth. I can refuse because the zone is to busy etc but not because someone isn't to hot with the radio.
Do you get treated differently , how can i treat you differently as I said, the only thing we do is issue very specific instructions and possibly keep an extra eye on them , that is human nature.
As for ATCOs saying those things about GA I would hope they are firmly in the minority, however some units are not there to provide certain air traffic services and will possibly only provide the bare minimum such as an alerting service. Each unit is funded differently and some do not get paid to offer a service to GA.
I cannot under any circumstance refuse someone a clearance through Class D airspace because there RT is not up to scratch, it is quite frankly more than my job is worth. I can refuse because the zone is to busy etc but not because someone isn't to hot with the radio.
Do you get treated differently , how can i treat you differently as I said, the only thing we do is issue very specific instructions and possibly keep an extra eye on them , that is human nature.
As for ATCOs saying those things about GA I would hope they are firmly in the minority, however some units are not there to provide certain air traffic services and will possibly only provide the bare minimum such as an alerting service. Each unit is funded differently and some do not get paid to offer a service to GA.
The Original Whirly
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knobby,
I wouldn't have thought flying a helicopter made any difference. We can't really hover safely at height (too much risk of vortex ring, and takes lots of power) so we tend to orbit like everyone else if asked to hold. OTOH, all the heli pilots I know reckon getting clearance through Birmingham's zone is easy, and flower , who should know, said it isn't. But I haven't tried recently, so if they're getting busier maybe that's what's made the difference.
I wouldn't have thought flying a helicopter made any difference. We can't really hover safely at height (too much risk of vortex ring, and takes lots of power) so we tend to orbit like everyone else if asked to hold. OTOH, all the heli pilots I know reckon getting clearance through Birmingham's zone is easy, and flower , who should know, said it isn't. But I haven't tried recently, so if they're getting busier maybe that's what's made the difference.
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Clearances
For what it's worth - UK ATC with only one exception is the best there is. Professional, helpful, and caring (and no I am not ATC I am a pilot). The exception in 20 years or so of flying has become Essex. It is perhaps just perception but the service to GA seems to have gone down and down to the extent of perhaps being dangerous. An example - we were transitting northwards and had been kept fairly high by the last radar giving us RIS when we then had to free call Essex. No problem except that we were by then good VMC on top and we called Essex for a service - no service keep clear of controlled airspace etc. We then asked for a brief RIS to decend to VMC below. Response "I can see nothing to affect, remain clear of controlled airspace at all times"
The moral - just leave Essex alone
The moral - just leave Essex alone
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During one of my later lessons we planned to route through Luton's zone. Whilst on frequency and waiting our turn we listened to another pilot making the request. His R/T was non standard and he gave a very vague route - the ATCO asked several times for clarification of his intended route - and when he failed to get a satisfactory answer he gave an exhasperated sounding "G-xx, you are NOT cleared through the zone, remain outside controlled airspace."
We quietly gave up our plan and routed around his zone.
I guess that's a little more then "fluffing your lines" but it did seem that sounding competent could make the difference.
Ali
We quietly gave up our plan and routed around his zone.
I guess that's a little more then "fluffing your lines" but it did seem that sounding competent could make the difference.
Ali
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Whirlssssss,
Oban is lovely this time of year, good choice
You shouldn't have a problem getting through Glasgow's airspace, they are generally helpful.
PS Circiut basher, stop telling peeps we great at edi, or they will all wanna come through and you will find yourself going round the zone
PPS .... wits rule 5??????
Oban is lovely this time of year, good choice
You shouldn't have a problem getting through Glasgow's airspace, they are generally helpful.
PS Circiut basher, stop telling peeps we great at edi, or they will all wanna come through and you will find yourself going round the zone
PPS .... wits rule 5??????
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Some years ago, Essex had a reputation for refusing transits (and did so to me a few times). More recently, I've had nothing but friendly, helpful responses from them.
If it's going to take me a couple of minutes more to route round CAS, I don't bother to call. If it's a long detour, I do. That seems to work fine every time.
Flower knows better than I do - but I've found that a confident, clear, straightforward call and request will get what's asked for, and a long rambling vague one will more likely get the polite refusal.
One that did surprise me - asking for "LARS" will almost always get a "say service requested" - so I ask for RIS (or RAS if under IFR) and that seems to work fine.
If it's going to take me a couple of minutes more to route round CAS, I don't bother to call. If it's a long detour, I do. That seems to work fine every time.
Flower knows better than I do - but I've found that a confident, clear, straightforward call and request will get what's asked for, and a long rambling vague one will more likely get the polite refusal.
One that did surprise me - asking for "LARS" will almost always get a "say service requested" - so I ask for RIS (or RAS if under IFR) and that seems to work fine.