Hilarious RT procedures in the states

[Martin1234]

Can anyone explain to me why they have no discipline on the RT procedures in the states? Every tower seems to adapt its own practice and it's not unusal that you hear pilots chatting with the tower! Seriously, I couldn't care less of what the person in the tower had for breakfast, especially when it delays my call.

[TRF4EVR]

It's because we hate you and want you to go home and wind up your countrymen.

[FWA NATCA]

Martin1234,

You must be talking about contract towers. Seriously I doubt that the problem is as bad as you let on, because any good controller knows that excess phraselogy is a controllers worse enemy. Now only if we could get pilots phraselogy under control, that would truly be a miracle.

Mike R
NATCA FWA

[Martin1234]

TRF4EVR, what an attitude! First of all, you would probably be unemployed if it wasn't for all traffic made by European pilots, secondly and thankfully, I am back home!

I'm flying helicopters so I'm mostly speaking about smaller general aviation airports. However, I find that the ATC at international airports work professionally while some controllers at smaller airports might have an attitude like TRF4EVR.

As a pilot, you don't need a RT certificate in the states while they take the radio procedures more seriously in the rest of the world. What about you guys in the towers; is it easier to become a tower-man in the states?

[TRF4EVR]

Oh, pardon. I thought you were just winding us up, but if it was a serious question, please accept my unreserved apologies.

Allow me to make a humble attempt at answering your very earnest queries.

In order:

Can anyone explain to me why they have no discipline on the RT procedures in the states?

Becuase we all have bad "attitudes". Not just about jackoff foreigners cloaking their petty insults (towards the aviation system in which they inexplicably chose to learn) in the form of "questions". But also towards kittens, puppies, downtrodden foreigners, etc.

Every tower seems to adapt its own practice and it's not unusal that you hear pilots chatting with the tower!

Not really a question, but let's "give it a go" as you limeys would say.

Imagine, daring to communicate with the proletariat in the tower. Next thing you know, you're going to find the mechanics walking fewer than ten steps behind.

First of all, you would probably be unemployed if it wasn't for all traffic made by European pilots, secondly and thankfully, I am back home!

Erm, yeah, well, once again, not really a question. But here we go. Seeing as how my job is teaching people to fly Cessnas and unfortunately I'm not gifted enough to make it at a "300-hour wonder" pilot factory for disaffected Europeans, I'm having a hard time figuring out how my job is in jeoparady from the (admittedly humiliating) hypothetical loss of blowhards such as yourself. But that's probably just my "aw-shucks" backwoods lack of sophistication speaking.

secondly and thankfully, I am back home!

Hurry back.

I'm flying helicopters so I'm mostly speaking about smaller general aviation airports.

Ah, a Robinson Captain. Neat. If you ever consider changing to fixed wing, I'm sure you've got a career ahead of you at BA.

What about you guys in the towers; is it easier to become a tower-man in the states?

Like, me, the vast majority of silly provincial "tower-men" in the states probably haven't been boning up on the requirements to become an ATCO in the "big league" model of efficency that is the EU. Suffice it to say, though, that I'm sure the requirments are much greater over there, just like everything else.

Go suck a lemon. Or for those of you that prefer the King's English "get stuffed".

[Avman]

TRF4EVER is obviously another great American who attended George Bush's World Diplomacy Academy:mad: No wonder the country is rapidly going down the drain :\
Europe 4ever :cool: :ok:

[ferris]

That's the best come back you can come up with? TRF4EVR at least had the courtesy to put some time into his well thought-out insults. He is way ahead at the moment (despite the ordinary score from the russian judge).




Funniest post I have read for a while:ok:

[ghost-rider]

TRF4EVR

Although I should be supporting the Brits, must admit that was the best 'ram it' post I've read for ages ! :D
Hilarious. :ok:


Martin1234 Sorry, but you did ask for that ! :sad:
AVMAN Where's your sense of humour ?! :rolleyes:

[PPRuNe Radar]

Guess no one recognises tongue in cheek responses anymore.

I took the intention of TRF4EVR's initial response to be humourous.

Martin1234, the problem with tarring everyone with the same brush as you did with your question is that the vast majority who do things properly take it as an attack on them.

I have seen people infringe Controlled Airspace .. therefore why do ALL pilots do that ?

I have heard some truly awful RT from helicopter pilots ...therefore why is the RT of ALL helicopter pilots bad ??

Neither assumption is true of course but unless you give a specific case then it is implied that it applies to the total group you are criticising.

I'm sure you get the drift.

Now, play nice everyone, or I'll take your toys out of the pram !!! ;)

[pilotpaul]

So what did the guy have for breakfast?

[ghost-rider]

Humble pie ?? ;)

[priscilla]

pilot paul :-) nice first post (-: :D

[My names Turkish]

Unfortunatly, due to maintainence on the site, the search engine is down. I was trying to reference some similar threads on this topic. There are some better threads on this that didnt digress into such silly silly "Lets have a go at the U.S" ****e, for want of a better word.

In the U.S standard R.T is not given the same emphasis as it is in the U.K. On the whole I find it to be more user friendly and generally conforms to the attitude towards flying over here. They make it a lot easier to just get on with it and not get bogged down with loads of extra complications as I feel they sometimes do in the U.K. I like to use proper R.T as I feel its an extra margin of safety. There have been accidents due to confusion, I dare someone to stand up and say theres not. So why would you not use it? For example, at my local field the Controllers brought in a new phrase "Position and hold". So picture me holding short and they say that. Does it mean stay in my position or position myself on the runway. It would be so stupid to have an accident over something which would be sorted by using a standard phrase.

Another point to note is that Europe still has a higher accident rate then the U.S

My final point which really reall irks me. I think some who live in the U.K underestimate how patriotic they are here in the U.S As a guest in their country I have quickly realized that to express an opinion that does not conform with the Masses is very unpopular indeed. For example to disagree with the War is almost a crime. Isint that what th U.S is about? Freedom of speech and opinion? Its the reason why, on threads such as these when someone has the "audacity" to suggest that there is room for improvement in some area of flying in the U.S, all the members from this side of the pond feel that its there patriotic duty to jump in and get all aggresive. Grow up guys. If you want to have a shouting match go elsewhere,cant you have the maturity to argue the post with intelligent comments and not insults. I can show you countless examples of childish remarks if need be.I agree on this post that you were tempted into it though.

( Having lit the fuse, he stands well back)

[28thJuly2001]

Methinks this is going to degenerate into a 'them V us' (us NOT YOU-ES) mud slinging match.
I eagerly await the next intelligent chapter.
28th,,

P.S. What's wrong with "Line Up and Wait?".... :ok:

[foghorn]

Plenty of UK vs US discussions (amongst others) going on in the Curernt Affairs forum...

[Huck]

I've never had a US controller tell me to "contact ze Brest...."

[West Coast]

The US controllers must be doing something right. According to ACI, In terms of operations in the preceeding 12 months leading up to March,03, 9 of the 10 busiest airports in the world are in the US. Of the top 30, 24 are in the US. The only non US airport to crack the top 10? sorry its in France, CDG at number 6. LHR comes in at number 13. VNY, a general aviation airport north of LAX, with no airline operations is a touch busier than LHR. In terms of passenger operations, yeah LHR is pretty busy. That speaks to the capabilites of the airport design and its landside operations abilities however.

Source: Airports council information.
http://www.airports.org

[Final 3 Greens]

Martin 1234

Can anyone explain to me why they have no discipline on the RT procedures in the states?

I've flown quite a lot in the states and it's true that their attitude seems more relaxed, but after some time I realised that they are very professional in getting the job done and the system works well in general.

Maybe you ought to go and get a certain part of your anatomy loosened ;)

AT least this is the ATC forum and no one has mentioned Boeings anfd 'buses yet :O

[Ralph Cramden]

In my opinion ATC in the US is far and away the best in the world. Europe is getting better but they have a long way to go in the efficient movement of air traffic. It wasn't all that long ago that when flying in Europe you had to have runway slots, departure slots, airway slots, arrival slots. You would finally get all your ducks in a row; hurtle into the air and be greeted by an erie quiet. Hardly any traffic! The Americans understand and use aviation better than any one else on the planet. Lighten up guys.

[Seba]

The US controllers must be doing something right. According to ACI, In terms of operations in the preceeding 12 months leading up to March,03, 9 of the 10 busiest airports in the world are in the US. Of the top 30, 24 are in the US. The only non US airport to crack the top 10? sorry its in France, CDG at number 6. LHR comes in at number 13

I'm sorry, but LHR only has two runways, 1 for TO and 1for landings, wich means 2,5 nm spacing on final for 1 runway,4 holds stacked up and often not enough staff, so actually you guys in the U.S get a lot of more luxury with your LAX and ATL,DTW,... with four runways. Not to say your job is much easier, but you gotta tell the facts.

[quoteMy final point which really reall irks me. I think some who live in the U.K underestimate how patriotic they are here in the U.S As a guest in their country I have quickly realized that to express an opinion that does not conform with the Masses is very unpopular indeed. For example to disagree with the War is almost a crime. Isint that what th U.S is about? Freedom of speech and opinion? Its the reason why, on threads such as these when someone has the "audacity" to suggest that there is room for improvement in some area of flying in the U.S, all the members from this side of the pond feel that its there patriotic duty to jump in and get all aggresive. Grow up guys. If you want to have a shouting match go elsewhere,cant you have the maturity to argue the post with intelligent comments and not insults. I can show you countless examples of childish remarks if need be.I agree on this post that you were tempted into it though.]

Well, I'm a European who likes the U.S. really a lot, but these are some wise words, now if only the Americans would understand them :)

[West Coast]

My point is to show that US controllers work alot of traffic, alot of it. The inference about them somehow not being up to whatever standards the original poster sets is absurd. I imagine he/she is a student who has no perspective on the overall picture.

If the post had specific suggestions or questions, asked in a proper manner, it surely would have been responded to in kind.

[TRF4EVR]

Well said West Coast. (also, Ralph, Final3Greens, ferris, ghostrider, and even Turkish, to a limited extent)

But, to Turkish, who in a very reasoned manner suggested that it was the Amerikans that started this slagging match, I refer you to the original post. Point me to the constructive part and I'll gladly aplogize.

As for "the war" and "American Nationalism", I'm at best ambivalent about our involvement in the middle east, and neither I, nor anyone I associate with sees a dissenting opinion as "treason", as long as it is expressed in a civil and intelligent manner.

And really. If you want to have a good natured slagging match with your yankee brethern, teach your heavy man some grammar.

P.S. Boeings are better than busses!

Just kidding. Maybe. ;)

[Martin1234]

Even though I wrote my initial posts in a provocative way, to get attention and to start a discussion, I did expect more mature replies. It sure answered its purpose but the way I got responded strengthened my case.

I would be more than happy if Europe would change over its JAR and implement the FARs, and the list goes on. Just because I allegedly don't like something specific about the states doesn't automatically make me a terrorist, or maybe I am wrong?

I got the impression that they aren't very procedural on the radio in the states. It more feels like as you were talking on the phone and I don't feel comfortable with that nor that I don't need to read back the instructions I receive.

This is more of a statement and yes, I do exaggerate for illustrational purposes. I might have found ATCO's Achilles' heel of those in the states that take their profession seriously. However, I would appreciate if someone that is experienced in this matter could evolve the subject, preferrably in a serious way.

[iawix]

Imagine, daring to communicate with the proletariat in the tower. Next thing you know, you're going to find the mechanics walking fewer than ten steps behind.

Hang on a minute, that post made me want to run up and down my street waving an American flag. Hilarious! :D

[javelin]

Agree about the reply about slots. The number of times we get airbourne in Europe with no slot and then run into congestion - what is that all about ?

Compared to Europe ATC, USA ATC is clearer, simpler and more practical IMHO. You seldom get multiple instructions - I could offer a suggestion as to why but won't - and the best bit - THEY CAN SEE WEATHER !

Also you don't get minutes of unintelligable French, not being sure when to break in, unless you are working Montreal that is :ok:

[priscilla]

Javelin said US ATC is clearer, simpler...
I don't know for the rest of Europe, but In France we make things more and more complicated. When we think about a new procedure we always spend hours anticipating all kinds of technical failures...it makes ATC rules heavier to use...but perhaps more safely..?

As an exemple we cannot give a radar heading for departure, we have to give a full description of it, in case of airplane radio failure.(to join cruising level or holding pattern)...and so on...

Sure I agree we have to make it clearer and simpler....US ATC seems to be safe...even when technical problems occur...even without having spent hours thinking of them :-)

Airbuses are so lovely...(Girl technical opinion ) :)

[strafer]

I'm a proud Englishman, but TRF4EVR is well ahead on points here Martin1234. He's the Matt Groening to your Syd Little :O

[Martin1234]

strafer, the problem is that everyone makes it a European against US war when I specifically pointed out the radio procedures!

Just because I mentioned the radio procedures doesn't mean anything else. The aviation industry in general is more efficient in the states.

To the best of my knowledge, TRF4EVR hasn't made a single point in regards to the radio procedures. Too many people here assume that I automatically attack the aviation industry in the states just because I don't like their radio procedures!

Stop assuming and start a new thread if you want to discuss "aviation industry in general, USA against Europe" or whatever you feel like.

[My names Turkish]

I agree on this post that you were tempted into it though.]

But, to Turkish, who in a very reasoned manner suggested that it was the Amerikans that started this slagging match, I refer you to the original post.

I never said that the first comment was reasonable, but you would have been better off to ignore the bit you thought to be sarcastic and rather than stoop to a lower level, make your point properly and win the argument like an adult.

The point I was trying to make was that on some threads there are some guys from the U.S who act like such morons. They think that using patriotism is an excuse for acting like rednecks. There was a thread where a guy asked a reasonable question about moving to Europe fro example. He wasnt complaining about the states, just said he needed a change. Comments such as "We dont need you" "Dont let your door hit you in the butt on the way out" and other such moronic comments. I just havent seen that sort of attitude in any other country and it amuses and intrests me.

The US vs UK rt thing is one of those little rivalries that will always be there. I think its a big shock for people to come from the strict and uniform procedures of the U.K to the more relaxed and less standard. There are some things that they could do better though. They have a high rate of runway incursion here in the U.S. In the UK you have to get a clearance to cross ANY runway, inactive or not. This is a better procedure than in the U.S and leads to less mistakes. But for some reason they wont introduce it in the U.S. As regards people chatting, I think there is a time and a place. Certainly not during the day. Imagine someone with an engine failure waiting to key the mike to make a Mayday call, and Berts telling frank about his Hash browns. Having a nice chat with controllers late at night when the freq is quiet is enjoyable. Its good to know that they are only human too.

[laidbak]

'..nor that I don't need to read back the instructions I receive.."

Not true.

A cursory examination of the FAR/AIM (which I'm sure you're familiar with,being an obvious paragon of procedure etc.) provides mandated procedure for readbacks etcetera.

Try not reading back an IFR clearance, or a hold short instruction, etcetera etcetera and see what happens.

Your post is jingoistic bs, pure and simple. I've experienced both styles of 'comms', in the UK (then RAF) and in the US (present - local 'podunk' airports and major airports /control centers).

Courtesy/friendliness, like a smile, costs nothing, and if it doesn't interfere with operations, is appropriate.

This whinge would definitely appear to be a manifestation of us/them egotism, inappropriate stiff upper lip-idness, 2X4 up the butt.

[Final 3 Greens]

Martin 1234

because I don't like their radio procedures!

That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with them, in the US.

Sounds like you're suffering form 'culture shock', a well recognised affliction in my line of business.

F3G

[Scott Voigt]

Turkish;

First off, <G> folks around here don't need any reason to act redneck. It's no act <G>....:p

Secondly, the US has been looking into changing FAR 129 about the crossing of runways. However, a study done using the NASA ASRS reports and other FAA reports shows that changing the rule would not make an appreciable difference. Most of the folks who get on runways that shouldn't didn't even know that they were on a runway or were on a runway that they had been instructed to remain clear of... The numbers just don't show it. As to the high number of incursions, well, you have to look at a couple of things. One is that we REPORT all of them. Secondly, we have just a wee bit more airports than y'all do <G>. Shoot, just in the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex we probably have almost as many airports as most of Scotland... Last count, we had close to 100 airports in the metro area... Yes that includes grass <G>....

regards

Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Tech chairman

[Martin1234]

Final 3 Greens, it's very true that there must not be anything wrong with it just because it doesn't appeal to me.

[Final 3 Greens]

Martin 1234

I didn't mean the last post to sound so terse as it reads today -sorry for that.

Culture shock is potentially very dangerous as it impacts on one's judgement making capability by distraction or disorientation.

So even though the US procedures are 'ok', if you don't feel ok with them, then there is a real problem for you, which is what I meant to say in the last post, but failed to get across.

It took me quite a few flights, some good advice and lot's of studying of a book (think it was called Capt Carlson's guide or something similar) to 'get the picture and cope with the local variations :O