Non-english speaking pilots

[Barnaby the Bear]

Just wanted to know what the requirement for pilots in Europe is with regards to speaking English.
I understood R/T should be in english.
Having just had the first Europeans of the year, who at best had unrecognisable English, and at worst no english at all.
At a busy aerodrome and surrounding area, it was a potentially lethal combination.:sad:

Also are pilots over the other side not taught circuit procedures, during training?

:*

[Draven]

Well, i do have to agree that Pilot's English ( And not only Pilot's ) in Europe apart from two or three countries is bad! I won't name places because i dont want to generate arguments and fights, im just pointing out a problem.

But yes R/T should be in english, but some countries in terms of GA do use their native language.

Regards
JP

[fourthreethree]

The problem as I see it is that the language used for communications between pilot and controller is not English itself but a standard phraseology which is based on the English language. Pilots training in country x where English is not a native language can learn all the ICAO standard phraseology they want but they cannot speak English, and as we all know too well ICAO sp does not cover every eventuality. There are times, usually during an unusual occurence or stressful situation where controllers, in particular native English speakers, will switch to English to try and get their message accross.

Yes it is a potentially dangerous situation. It is also a difficult point to bring across. I help with student controller training, and one of the biggest problems is telling English students to use ICAO sp whenever possible instead of gabbling English at the pilots.

And lets not pretend its only a problem from the pilots side. Ask a Brit pilot what the standard of English is like among controllers across the globe, even in parts of Europe.:oh:

[FWA NATCA]

Barnaby the Bear,

This problem is world wide, though you guys probably encounter more often.

The worse encounter with a non English speaking crew that I encountered was an Aero Mexican Crew. It took me about 10 minutes to figure out where they were on the airport, and about ten more minutes to figure out that they wanted to go to Las Vegas, (of course there was not a flight plan in the computer).

Knowing that this crew was going to be a problem (lucklily it was after midnight) I put in a flight plan Radar Vectors direct Las Vegas with a request altitude of FL310. It took about five more minutes to get the crew to understand the clearance.

After I fore warned the Center, they taxied out and departed, I climb them to FL310, and I switched them to the center frequency. They made it to their destination but each facility that worked them had problems communicating with them.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[priscilla]

Hey I've got a solution for you guys....everybody should speak french in any country...you won't have problems anymore with english then :hmm:

[chiglet]

priscilla
FYI we still drive on the left:ok:
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[Barnaby the Bear]

Priscilla, I am not suggesting its easy for everybody to speak a different language. I certainly can't (although when I am drunk, I have been told I do), and wish I could. But surely if you are going to fly to another country basic R/T and knowledge is essential.
:}

[eastern wiseguy]

Hi Mike......we could also include AMERICANS as being non english speakers too!!:ok:

[C172pilot]

But yes R/T should be in english, but some countries in terms of GA do use their native language.
May I disagree. As far as I've been told there are no rules about this. ICAO says nothing about which language should be used in R/T. Not only GA is using their native language but also most of the commerical traffic on the regional airports in for example Sweden.

I would like to draw your attension to that there are problems with speaking another language then the native language also. It might lead to more ambigious calls and a greater potential for misunderstanding. In abnormal situations this may become dangerous.

Having said that, I do understand your point about it beeing unpleasent to fly in an environment where you do not understand what the other aircraft around you are doing. I myself almost always use english on the R/T partly because of this, but I would like to contribute to your understanding why all can't do that.

C172pilot

[FlyingForFun]

Ask a Brit pilot what the standard of English is like among controllers across the globe, even in parts of EuropeAs a Brit private pilot who's just recently returned from a trip to Europe (France and Belgium, in fact) - my first time flying outside the English-speaking world, other than Le Touquet where everyone is English anyway - I found the controllers who I spoke to were all friendly and all spoke excellent English.

I did encounter three problems.

The first, there is no way around as far as I can see, and that was at an uncontrolled field. I read the standard calls off of a crib-sheet. My school-boy French was just about good enough to insert the correct runway number where appropriate. (Actually, it was school-girl French, since I kindly let my female PPL passenger make most of the calls!) I have no idea if anyone could undestand our accent, but I know we couldn't understand anything anyone else was saying.

The next problem was one poor controller who had to repeat our cleared altitude four times before I understood him. Strange thing was that his English was excellent, and I understood every single word he said, except for the number before the word "thousand". Eventually got it sorted out, though.

And finally, there was the frequency which I contacted for clearance to cross a restricted area. After my initial call, I got back a load of French verbal diarrhoea. I looked at my passeger, and she gave me back a puzzled look. We tried again, and heard exactly the same again. That was when we realised that we were listening to a recorded message, so we "played" it back several times. I still don't understand what it said, but we got the word "fermer", which we both seem to remember means "closed", so we routed around the restricted area!

Oh yes, I nearly forgot the ATIS, which was in both French and English, but spoken so fast that I had to listen to it 3 times to get all the information!

I think 433 has actually summed the situation up very nicely, from the very limited experience I have from the pilot's viewpoint.

FFF
--------------

[JJflyer]

Yip being a non native English speaker I have run into some problems. Seems that the way I usedsay 3 is often confused with 2. Changed to the standard ICAO and no problems anymore.

I wholly agree that English should be the standard language for ALL commercial traffic and preferred language for private flying around the world.
Unfortunately demading English proficiency from all pilots would restrict a lot of recreational pilots from flying. This would be sad and take the state of GA in Europe even lower.

I have had a few problems with understanding French controllers, but same goes for some African ATC. Generally French have been very good, and have improved a lot in the last few years. ATIS broadcasts... well it seems that many controllers try to get the msg condensed in the shortest possible time:} a contest perhaps.

Cheers

JJ

[Barnaby the Bear]

I certainly wouldn't want to discourage any pilots (Well ok some people shouldn't be in the air). But on a very busy day with commercial traffic mixed in. Then to have non English speaking pilots call (unannounced). It made for some interesting moments (hopefully not to be repeated) in my still reletively short career as an ATCO. :}

[bluskis]

FFF
If an auto message says a restricted area is closed, I would, and have, taken that to mean the activity the area is protecting has closed down, for lunch,tea, weekend or whatever, hence the restriction is not in effect.

[forget]

Priscilla has a point on using French. There are only 47 words in the entire language. The only nation which couldn't come up with their own word for potato.

[ratt]

I regularly talk to pilots on navex's from cranfield and there are alot of foreign student pilots. (other training fields too but cranfield seems to have alot)

Their english is usually good but it can make for an interesting time trying to work out the name of the turning point as it is generally pronounced incoherently. We usually muddle through though and it can keep the job interesting when your maxed out. Thanks to the instructors too who chip in occasionally with a hint.

[priscilla]

FFF
Thanks for your report...
The restricted area auto message should have been recorded in english too. (it's compulsory) sorry!
I'll try to recored my ATIS a bit slowlier...but we have a fixed time to record it, so if there are a lot of informations to record, we have to speak faster..
I agree with JJflyer, if english is compulsory we'll lose a lot of our VFR pilots . But it's sure that being able to understand all the pilots messages would be far better....
I don't know if english level is better in French ATC now, but we have a lot of training, english teachers always reachable in ACC and some Aproach centers, we can go to UK to improve our level.
I think the French administration is doing good ...so it's our part of the job now!
We'll try to welcome you as well as we can (even you Forget! your username seems to be well chosen!)

:D

[mad_jock]

I used to fly out of Aachen in Germany.

I was always astounded how much english was spoken on German low level Information service. I don't know if it is the history of the Forces being over there. Some of the ATCO's where actuall quite cruel I thought to the german pilots who wern't to hot at English. After i came on freq the controller just said english only from now on. And when one poor sod was struggling he was told "you are training to be a commercial pilot get on with it".

And as for the cloggy ATC what with that woman with a Lancishire accent. I asked her when she moved over and apparently she lived in Burnley for a year on her year out.

I wish I was as good at languages as the cloggys :(

MJ

[redsnail]

After I moved to the UK and started flying around one of the hardest things I had to come to grips with was the different accents. I am flying to Holland, France, Belgium and Germany these days and it can be quite a challenge. Germany and Holland have excellent English speakers. The Dutch are really amazing. The french accents are a little bit harder to catch first go but I am improving. I am sure I have made a few controllers laugh as I attempt to pronounce their waypoints.
I have found that being more familiar with the area and knowing what to expect has really helped in understanding the r/t. I tend to use ICAO phraseology when in Europe than in the UK.

I am sure one or two controllers take the mickey out of my Aussie accent too. :E

[Draven]

Oh Yes Redsnail,

I love the aussie accent :E

g'day mate :ok:

JP

-----
Draven < -------- > Flying Kangaroo

[foghorn]

ratt

Well that's more our problem for having seriously non-phonetic place names!

Many non-Brit native English speakers struggle with them, never mind non-native English speakers!. Hell, many Brits also have problems - Cranfield is a good case in point, having Olney (silent L) as a VRP and Flitwick (silent W) not far away...

[Point Seven]

What about making all the Jocks speak English too?:ok:

P7

[mad_jock]

Aye right. point7 :)

we will get Aye in CAP413 yet.

MJ

[DC10RealMan]

I believe that English is one of three languages approved by ICAO, the others being French and Spanish.

[Jerricho]

*pointing at Point 7*

Enough of that me old mucker, or I'll tell Jets what you're saying about him!

[PorcoRosso]

I am flying all across europe for my job, and so far, I found ATC in English OK, except in Italia and Spain ....

Forget : We have a special word for Potato : Pommes de terres or Patate, the last one could also be used to describe an idiot.

[priscilla]

DC10RealMan, there are 6 ICAO official languages:
English, Russian, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese and French!

[DC10RealMan]

Thank you Priscilla!. I knew that someone would know the answer.

[TheFox]

DC10RealMan, there are 6 ICAO official languages:
English, Russian, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese and French!


Those are for documention, for r/t it is the native language of the country and if people cannot comunicate in that, then ICAO. But remember this is only ICAO's rule.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Being based in the UAE(dubai,abu dhabi etc) we get more than our fair share of ex aeroflot crates flying for non descript "airlines" that change name every time the roubles run out.

From personal experience while their english is bad at least they try. I'd take one of these guys over an Air France who thinks his english is perfect speaks a million miles an hour and gets the entire readback wrong.

Also I would take Vladimir and his mates over Chuck Chunder from the U S of A who because his country owns the world precludes him from using those pink things stuck to the side of his head, until at least the third call to him, and also precludes him from reading back anything other than a drawled "Roger" or "Wilco".

Also can anyone confirm that in Russia the R/T is all done in Russian cos that would describe the odd STAR clearance readback in Ruski (which by the way I think I understood more than the subsequent English readback).

[TheFox]

Funnly enough just read an article in todays pilot that state that since all r/t in Russia is in russian then you have to speak the language or you are not alowed to go solo, still try to figure out how they deal with international flights.:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Fancy Navigator]

Ah Ah!! Another example of narrow mindedness throughout this thread....
Well.... It is a shame that in other countries, they speak a different language! How dare they!!
Everybody should speak English, but the brits are not very good at learning other languages, to say the least!!;)
So instead of criticising the French or the Spanish controllers and their accents, maybe some of you should try to learn these languages.... I am sure the controllers would laugh:p
Cheers:)

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Fancy Navigator, the point of the thread is that in the countrys we work in (ie. most of the world) English is the required language to be used in R/T. The argument is that if these foreign pilots are to fly into airspace where English is a requirement then it is imperitave for safety that they speak English adequately. Your post seemed to have missed the point all together.

[Scott Voigt]

AirNoService;

Probably you get the roger or wilco is because in the US, execept for hold short and clearances, none others need to be read back other than an acknowlegement with call sign and roger or wilco.


As to not listening, yeah that is indeed a problem. Seem to be busy working on the next bid schedule or the stock quotes.

regards

Scott

[priscilla]

the subject was non-english speaking pilots...I presume there is a big difference between professionnal airliners pilots and non professionnal IFR or VFR pilots...Do you have problems with both of them?
is it just because of a funny pronounciation, or very different R/T ?

[Barnaby the Bear]

The pilots that prompted the thread were GA VFR. I was concerned that pilots flew to a country with little or no vocabulary. And little regard for procedures.
But it doe's, and has raised the issue of the language problem all over.
As I said before. I don't pretend that speaking another language is easy. And I wish I learnt another language. But Surely flying through foreign airspace and not being able to speak the lingo is like having no radio at all? :\
Lets just say there were several aircraft. Only one of the aircraft spoke English. The others could not speak a word that was remotely recognisable.

[ratt]

foghorn

well put. we do have enough trouble as brits pronouncing towns and villages.

The best advice I can give to any flyers is to use easily pronounced major towns (or preferably airfields as they are on the radar map) with simple names and give a radial/distance.

For initial ident it is alot easier to find someone who is 15miles NW of Cambridge than it is to find someone who reports 'turning overhead Steeple Gidding'

[Jerricho]

Or the ever famous "Ten Mike".........

[rej]

Lets not get too carried away with non-english speaking pilots not knowing what or how to say things.
Only the other day I was witness to the following R/T exchange:

Zone controller: "G- .., entering XXXXXXX controlled airspace, maintain Victor Mike Charlie"

Pilot: "G-.., err sorry I do not understand what you mean, can you help me?"

Now if that is not scary I don't know what is.

[contact_tower]

I have worked in Sweden, and the use of swedish in RT is a big problem, and the CAA is trying to do something about it. It's the GA pilots that are reluctant to change.

Here we often get a lot of german and swiss GA flights enorute to visit the north cape in the summer months. The germans is a nightmare, they have on occations flown in formation of up to 8 aircraft, where only the "lead" spoke english.

Now, that got quite interesting! :D

[rej]

It happens a lot.

I was a controller at a now-disbanded area radar unit during the days when our eastern-block friends first started to come to UK airshows. A pair of aircraft in Class A airspace, one english speaking pilot, formation goes IMC, lost-wingman, pairs split ............ NIGHTMARE.

Thats what makes controlling fun !!!

[WestWind1950]

@contact_tower

Funny that, since no one is allowed to fly outside of Germany unless they have passed and received the Engllish radio licence or have a passenger on board who has it. Just having a leader with the proper licence is not enough... maybe, after such an experience or after troubles, their papers should be thoroughly checked at their next landing. Then maybe the word would spread that, yes, you better have the proper authorization! (of course, still doesn't mean they can properly speak English even if they have the licence....)

I flew to the North Cap once in a formation of 2 aircraft. On my aircraft were 2 other pilots and neither had the English licence. One spoke English quite well, I never had to correct him, the other kept his mouth shut and we did his radio work. In the other plane the one pilot spoke also no English, his partner thought she could. Well, during our pause in Bergen they changed runway directions.... we had been parked at different areas and as my plane taxied to the proper holding, suddenly an aircraft taxied toward us! They were repeatedly told on the radio, in clear English, to turn around.... no reaction. I realised it was our friends aircraft, grapped the mike and told them in German to turn around! They finally did! :} After that, my aircraft remained "leader"....

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

[skydriller]

Ive been in France a couple of years, so my french is now pretty good. When I visit smaller aerodromes (and some larger ones where there is alot of GA) that I know should have an English speaking controller, I use English on intial contact, this way the controller knows Im English. Then when approaching/in the circuit I use French so that any local guys know what Im doing aswell, if appropriate I may say something like ‘Fxxxx, vent arriere, downwind 28’ and use both languages, especially if I hear another voice on frequency. I started doing this after a transit of Bordeaux Merignac CTR/TMA where the busy controller was talking to myself in English and another GA transit guy in French and checking with each of us in our respective languages that we both knew of each others positions!! . I dont know if this is good practice or not, but I think it helps situational awareness for all involved and on more than a couple of occasions I have been thanked for doing it. Anyone care to comment, especially if you are french?

Regards, SD.

BTW - Priscilla, have to agree with FFF that the only problem I have had understanding English over here is on ATIS – ntsofastplese!!! All controllers seem to speak very good proceedural English.

[Kalium Chloride]

ICAO says nothing about which language should be used in R/T.


Actually that's not true. ICAO's always recommended that R/T should be in either the "ground station" language or English if requested. And I came across this the other day, which appears timely (my emphasis added):



ICAO sets out minimum language proficiency standards
David Kaminski-Morrow, London (09Apr03)


ICAO has adopted key changes to its aeronautical telecommunications standards which introduce a requirement for pilots, air traffic controllers and other personnel to achieve a specified level of language proficiency for air/ground radio communication.

The principal amendments to ICAO Annex 1 and Annex 10 strengthen previous recommendations by formally establishing that English – or an agreed common language – shall be used for communication by ground control centres and that English shall be available upon request from aircraft.

They also state that ICAO standardised phraseology shall be used in all situations for which it has been specified, and that plain language shall be used only when standardised phraseology cannot serve.

But the amendments also set out a crucial six-level scale of language proficiency which is designed to allow a specific determination of an individual’s ability to communicate clearly while using air/ground radio.

Personnel who cannot achieve proficiency beyond the first three of these levels – defined as ‘pre-elementary’, ‘elementary’, and ‘pre-operational’ – would fall below the minimum ICAO standards required for radiotelephony.

Individuals achieving the fourth level of proficiency, the ‘operational’ level, would meet the minimum requirement and there are two higher levels of achievable proficiency, defined as ‘extended’ and ‘expert’.

Language proficiency for each of the six levels is, in turn, assessed according to six particular categories of language: pronunciation, grammatical structure, vocabulary, fluency, comprehension and interaction. To achieve ICAO’s minimum ‘operational’ level, an individual would have to meet the following criteria:

* Pronunciation – pronunciation, stress, rhythm and intonation are influenced by the individual’s first language or regional variation but this only sometimes interferes with ease of understanding.

* Structure – basic grammatical structures and sentence patterns are used creatively and are usually well-controlled. Errors might occur, particularly in unusual or unexpected circumstances, but rarely interfere with meaning.

* Vocabulary – range and accuracy are usually sufficient to communicate effectively on common, concrete and work-related topics. Can often paraphrase successfully when lacking vocabulary in unusual or unexpected circumstances.

* Fluency – produces stretches of language at an appropriate tempo. There might be an occasional loss of fluency on transition from rehearsed or formulaic speech to spontaneous interaction but this does not prevent effective communication. Can make limited use of discourse markers or connectors. Fillers are not distracting.

* Comprehension – mostly accurate on common, concrete and work-related topics when the accent or variety used is sufficiently intelligible for an international community of users. When the speaker is confronted with a linguistic or situational complication or an unexpected turn of events, comprehension might be slower or require clarification strategies.

* Interaction – responses are usually immediate, appropriate and informative. Initiates and maintains exchanges even when dealing with an unexpected turn of events. Deals adequately with apparent misunderstandings by checking, confirming or clarifying.

ICAO linguistics specialist Elizabeth Mathews, who has played a key role in pushing through the amendments, describes the changes as “the first global language policy”.

In addition to the Annex 1 and Annex 10 amendments the language revision includes parallel changes to Annexes 6 and 11 which impose a responsibility on airlines and air traffic management providers to ensure that staff meet the necessary standards.


Source: Air Transport Intelligence news

[priscilla]

In France, all ATCs had to take a special test to determine their english ICAO level (out of 6). People under 4/6 have to do a special training (100 hours then 50 hours of english lessons!)
I still don't know if we'll have again this test later...
SKydriller, I would say it's wonderfull if you can speak both french and english....even if the frequency is busy you can make it short, or just report your position in french too if the ATC informed you of a converging traffic (with a french pilot).
I promise again, will speak slowlier when recording ATIS :-)

[Barnaby the Bear]

I have just watched the program on BBC2 'Crowded skies'. It was interesting to see that the only incident documented on the program that was the fault of ATC,was partially a language problem. I realise you could argue why didn't the minority (the english pilots) speak French. But surely it helps to highlight the need for a single language in Aviation.:}

[Scott Voigt]

Priscilla;

I was able to chat with a few French controllers at the Oshkosh airshow this last week. All of them had very good english, so if this is any indication of most of you, I don't see that you should have any problems with the non french speakers...

regards

Scott

[av8boy]

Scott,

How'd the French controllers feel about YOUR English? :D

Dave ;)

[Scott Voigt]

Dave;

They didn't seem to have much problem with it, but I only work in Texas and don't have a real bad drawl <G>. I've only been here a bit over 20 years and am not a native yet. I still have some Californian in me <BG>...

Scott