Non-english speaking pilots
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Non-english speaking pilots
Just wanted to know what the requirement for pilots in Europe is with regards to speaking English.
I understood R/T should be in english.
Having just had the first Europeans of the year, who at best had unrecognisable English, and at worst no english at all.
At a busy aerodrome and surrounding area, it was a potentially lethal combination.
Also are pilots over the other side not taught circuit procedures, during training?
I understood R/T should be in english.
Having just had the first Europeans of the year, who at best had unrecognisable English, and at worst no english at all.
At a busy aerodrome and surrounding area, it was a potentially lethal combination.
Also are pilots over the other side not taught circuit procedures, during training?
Last edited by Barnaby the Bear; 14th Jul 2003 at 20:20.
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Well, i do have to agree that Pilot's English ( And not only Pilot's ) in Europe apart from two or three countries is bad! I won't name places because i dont want to generate arguments and fights, im just pointing out a problem.
But yes R/T should be in english, but some countries in terms of GA do use their native language.
Regards
JP
But yes R/T should be in english, but some countries in terms of GA do use their native language.
Regards
JP
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The problem as I see it is that the language used for communications between pilot and controller is not English itself but a standard phraseology which is based on the English language. Pilots training in country x where English is not a native language can learn all the ICAO standard phraseology they want but they cannot speak English, and as we all know too well ICAO sp does not cover every eventuality. There are times, usually during an unusual occurence or stressful situation where controllers, in particular native English speakers, will switch to English to try and get their message accross.
Yes it is a potentially dangerous situation. It is also a difficult point to bring across. I help with student controller training, and one of the biggest problems is telling English students to use ICAO sp whenever possible instead of gabbling English at the pilots.
And lets not pretend its only a problem from the pilots side. Ask a Brit pilot what the standard of English is like among controllers across the globe, even in parts of Europe.
Yes it is a potentially dangerous situation. It is also a difficult point to bring across. I help with student controller training, and one of the biggest problems is telling English students to use ICAO sp whenever possible instead of gabbling English at the pilots.
And lets not pretend its only a problem from the pilots side. Ask a Brit pilot what the standard of English is like among controllers across the globe, even in parts of Europe.
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Barnaby the Bear,
This problem is world wide, though you guys probably encounter more often.
The worse encounter with a non English speaking crew that I encountered was an Aero Mexican Crew. It took me about 10 minutes to figure out where they were on the airport, and about ten more minutes to figure out that they wanted to go to Las Vegas, (of course there was not a flight plan in the computer).
Knowing that this crew was going to be a problem (lucklily it was after midnight) I put in a flight plan Radar Vectors direct Las Vegas with a request altitude of FL310. It took about five more minutes to get the crew to understand the clearance.
After I fore warned the Center, they taxied out and departed, I climb them to FL310, and I switched them to the center frequency. They made it to their destination but each facility that worked them had problems communicating with them.
Mike
NATCA FWA
This problem is world wide, though you guys probably encounter more often.
The worse encounter with a non English speaking crew that I encountered was an Aero Mexican Crew. It took me about 10 minutes to figure out where they were on the airport, and about ten more minutes to figure out that they wanted to go to Las Vegas, (of course there was not a flight plan in the computer).
Knowing that this crew was going to be a problem (lucklily it was after midnight) I put in a flight plan Radar Vectors direct Las Vegas with a request altitude of FL310. It took about five more minutes to get the crew to understand the clearance.
After I fore warned the Center, they taxied out and departed, I climb them to FL310, and I switched them to the center frequency. They made it to their destination but each facility that worked them had problems communicating with them.
Mike
NATCA FWA
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Priscilla, I am not suggesting its easy for everybody to speak a different language. I certainly can't (although when I am drunk, I have been told I do), and wish I could. But surely if you are going to fly to another country basic R/T and knowledge is essential.
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But yes R/T should be in english, but some countries in terms of GA do use their native language.
I would like to draw your attension to that there are problems with speaking another language then the native language also. It might lead to more ambigious calls and a greater potential for misunderstanding. In abnormal situations this may become dangerous.
Having said that, I do understand your point about it beeing unpleasent to fly in an environment where you do not understand what the other aircraft around you are doing. I myself almost always use english on the R/T partly because of this, but I would like to contribute to your understanding why all can't do that.
C172pilot
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Ask a Brit pilot what the standard of English is like among controllers across the globe, even in parts of Europe
I did encounter three problems.
The first, there is no way around as far as I can see, and that was at an uncontrolled field. I read the standard calls off of a crib-sheet. My school-boy French was just about good enough to insert the correct runway number where appropriate. (Actually, it was school-girl French, since I kindly let my female PPL passenger make most of the calls!) I have no idea if anyone could undestand our accent, but I know we couldn't understand anything anyone else was saying.
The next problem was one poor controller who had to repeat our cleared altitude four times before I understood him. Strange thing was that his English was excellent, and I understood every single word he said, except for the number before the word "thousand". Eventually got it sorted out, though.
And finally, there was the frequency which I contacted for clearance to cross a restricted area. After my initial call, I got back a load of French verbal diarrhoea. I looked at my passeger, and she gave me back a puzzled look. We tried again, and heard exactly the same again. That was when we realised that we were listening to a recorded message, so we "played" it back several times. I still don't understand what it said, but we got the word "fermer", which we both seem to remember means "closed", so we routed around the restricted area!
Oh yes, I nearly forgot the ATIS, which was in both French and English, but spoken so fast that I had to listen to it 3 times to get all the information!
I think 433 has actually summed the situation up very nicely, from the very limited experience I have from the pilot's viewpoint.
FFF
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Languages
Yip being a non native English speaker I have run into some problems. Seems that the way I usedsay 3 is often confused with 2. Changed to the standard ICAO and no problems anymore.
I wholly agree that English should be the standard language for ALL commercial traffic and preferred language for private flying around the world.
Unfortunately demading English proficiency from all pilots would restrict a lot of recreational pilots from flying. This would be sad and take the state of GA in Europe even lower.
I have had a few problems with understanding French controllers, but same goes for some African ATC. Generally French have been very good, and have improved a lot in the last few years. ATIS broadcasts... well it seems that many controllers try to get the msg condensed in the shortest possible time a contest perhaps.
Cheers
JJ
I wholly agree that English should be the standard language for ALL commercial traffic and preferred language for private flying around the world.
Unfortunately demading English proficiency from all pilots would restrict a lot of recreational pilots from flying. This would be sad and take the state of GA in Europe even lower.
I have had a few problems with understanding French controllers, but same goes for some African ATC. Generally French have been very good, and have improved a lot in the last few years. ATIS broadcasts... well it seems that many controllers try to get the msg condensed in the shortest possible time
a contest perhaps.Cheers
JJ
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I certainly wouldn't want to discourage any pilots (Well ok some people shouldn't be in the air). But on a very busy day with commercial traffic mixed in. Then to have non English speaking pilots call (unannounced). It made for some interesting moments (hopefully not to be repeated) in my still reletively short career as an ATCO.
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FFF
If an auto message says a restricted area is closed, I would, and have, taken that to mean the activity the area is protecting has closed down, for lunch,tea, weekend or whatever, hence the restriction is not in effect.
If an auto message says a restricted area is closed, I would, and have, taken that to mean the activity the area is protecting has closed down, for lunch,tea, weekend or whatever, hence the restriction is not in effect.
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Priscilla has a point on using French. There are only 47 words in the entire language. The only nation which couldn't come up with their own word for potato.
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I regularly talk to pilots on navex's from cranfield and there are alot of foreign student pilots. (other training fields too but cranfield seems to have alot)
Their english is usually good but it can make for an interesting time trying to work out the name of the turning point as it is generally pronounced incoherently. We usually muddle through though and it can keep the job interesting when your maxed out. Thanks to the instructors too who chip in occasionally with a hint.
Their english is usually good but it can make for an interesting time trying to work out the name of the turning point as it is generally pronounced incoherently. We usually muddle through though and it can keep the job interesting when your maxed out. Thanks to the instructors too who chip in occasionally with a hint.
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FFF
Thanks for your report...
The restricted area auto message should have been recorded in english too. (it's compulsory) sorry!
I'll try to recored my ATIS a bit slowlier...but we have a fixed time to record it, so if there are a lot of informations to record, we have to speak faster..
I agree with JJflyer, if english is compulsory we'll lose a lot of our VFR pilots . But it's sure that being able to understand all the pilots messages would be far better....
I don't know if english level is better in French ATC now, but we have a lot of training, english teachers always reachable in ACC and some Aproach centers, we can go to UK to improve our level.
I think the French administration is doing good ...so it's our part of the job now!
We'll try to welcome you as well as we can (even you Forget! your username seems to be well chosen!)
Thanks for your report...
The restricted area auto message should have been recorded in english too. (it's compulsory) sorry!
I'll try to recored my ATIS a bit slowlier...but we have a fixed time to record it, so if there are a lot of informations to record, we have to speak faster..
I agree with JJflyer, if english is compulsory we'll lose a lot of our VFR pilots . But it's sure that being able to understand all the pilots messages would be far better....
I don't know if english level is better in French ATC now, but we have a lot of training, english teachers always reachable in ACC and some Aproach centers, we can go to UK to improve our level.
I think the French administration is doing good ...so it's our part of the job now!
We'll try to welcome you as well as we can (even you Forget! your username seems to be well chosen!)
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I used to fly out of Aachen in Germany.
I was always astounded how much english was spoken on German low level Information service. I don't know if it is the history of the Forces being over there. Some of the ATCO's where actuall quite cruel I thought to the german pilots who wern't to hot at English. After i came on freq the controller just said english only from now on. And when one poor sod was struggling he was told "you are training to be a commercial pilot get on with it".
And as for the cloggy ATC what with that woman with a Lancishire accent. I asked her when she moved over and apparently she lived in Burnley for a year on her year out.
I wish I was as good at languages as the cloggys
MJ
I was always astounded how much english was spoken on German low level Information service. I don't know if it is the history of the Forces being over there. Some of the ATCO's where actuall quite cruel I thought to the german pilots who wern't to hot at English. After i came on freq the controller just said english only from now on. And when one poor sod was struggling he was told "you are training to be a commercial pilot get on with it".
And as for the cloggy ATC what with that woman with a Lancishire accent. I asked her when she moved over and apparently she lived in Burnley for a year on her year out.
I wish I was as good at languages as the cloggys
MJ
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After I moved to the UK and started flying around one of the hardest things I had to come to grips with was the different accents. I am flying to Holland, France, Belgium and Germany these days and it can be quite a challenge. Germany and Holland have excellent English speakers. The Dutch are really amazing. The french accents are a little bit harder to catch first go but I am improving. I am sure I have made a few controllers laugh as I attempt to pronounce their waypoints.
I have found that being more familiar with the area and knowing what to expect has really helped in understanding the r/t. I tend to use ICAO phraseology when in Europe than in the UK.
I am sure one or two controllers take the mickey out of my Aussie accent too.
I have found that being more familiar with the area and knowing what to expect has really helped in understanding the r/t. I tend to use ICAO phraseology when in Europe than in the UK.
I am sure one or two controllers take the mickey out of my Aussie accent too.
I say there boy
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Well that's more our problem for having seriously non-phonetic place names!
Many non-Brit native English speakers struggle with them, never mind non-native English speakers!. Hell, many Brits also have problems - Cranfield is a good case in point, having Olney (silent L) as a VRP and Flitwick (silent W) not far away...
Well that's more our problem for having seriously non-phonetic place names!
Many non-Brit native English speakers struggle with them, never mind non-native English speakers!. Hell, many Brits also have problems - Cranfield is a good case in point, having Olney (silent L) as a VRP and Flitwick (silent W) not far away...