Home-builds

[Girl Flyday]

I'm hoping to buy (and build!) a home-build aeroplane sometime this year - and wondered if anyone had any recommendations / tips / whatever....

I guess I'm looking more for performance rather than price (within reason!) - and at the moment am thinking of waiting to take a look round at the PFA Rally (where I'll be working in ops - please make yourself known, if you fly in!) before making a decision - but any input from fellow PPRuNers would be much appreciated.

GF

[Keef]

Long job! Hundreds of hours...

Richard H built a Europa and has got its Permit to Fly. He seems happy...

You at the PFA Rally? Planning to go, probably the Friday.

[Girl Flyday]

Yes, I figured it wouldn't be an overnight job - but after all these years I think I may have finally mastered the art of patience! (I hope ;) ) Besides - it was originally my partner's idea, and so there will be at least two of us 'on the job'! (I have a couple of willing friends, too...)

I didn't mean build this year though - just start building! :eek:

As for the PFA Rally - I'll be there every day, so do give me a shout as I'd hate to miss you! (Same goes for anyone else too - I'll let you have my mobile number if you want it)

GF :ok:

[Keef]

Go for it! I've been delighted at some of the "homebuilts" I've seen, and the happy proud smiles on the owners' faces.

I did have your mobile number, but when I changed phones, the software blew out and lost some - incl yours. Canst PM it?

[I. M. Esperto]

You might start with using the EAA as a source of kits; advice, etc.

http://w3.one.net/~fhoward/eaa/

I suggest you find one with as much prefab assemblies as possible.

Good luck.

[LowNSlow]

Also try the PFA at www.pfa.org.uk. The PFA has to approve any homebuilt to be constructed in the UK and a lot of the wonderful designs you can see elsewhere are NOT approved for the UK market. There is still a bewildering choice of aircraft out there though. You could also reduce your build time by buying a partially completed kit or a rebuild / restoration project.

When you start your build, you will have to be a member of the PFA to register the aircraft and also to get the various stages of the build approved by a PFA inspector.

The PFA Rally is a MUST DO for anybody wanting to build a kit or buy a vintage taildragger. All the major players in the UK kit market will be there and there will also be a lot of finished kits or the aforementioned vintage taildraggers with a " For Sale" sign hanging off the prop. There are quite a few people who enjoy the build process, fly the aircraft for 10 - 20 hours and then sell it to finance their next build project. Beats me why they do it but there's nowt so strange as folks ;)

[I. M. Esperto]

Trade - A - Plane

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/index.shtml

This is a great source.

[Keef]

Methinks GF is a PFA member already (and more).

[Bogeymann]

An earlier post on this topic was wrong. The PFA are not the only organisation that look after Homebuilts. The BMAA look after quite a number - infact its an increasing number - of machines. I understand that three notables in this are the Easy Raider, the Escapade and the Skyranger. www.slowflight.co.uk and www.flylight.co.uk (I think).

In fact I just wish I had bought a BMAA supported kit, rather than a PFA one, for my last build as the drag on an on and on for bits of paper, waiting for tech office bods to come back of holiday etc has been a nightmare. I also think that the BMAA is cheaper.

Next for me will be either the Escapade or the Skyranger...

[A and C]

I wish you luck with this project but remember most kit aircraft do not get finnished but the people who started them.

To choose the best aircraft for you look at what is getting completed by the first owners , the Vans and europa spring to mind but others on the forum may have other ideas.

Then find yourself a PFA inspector and take him out for a beer or two , you will soon be told if he thinks that the kit you like is within your ability and you will find out what the snags are with the aircraft.
He will also tell you the best way to go about building the aircraft and put you in contact with other builders some of these may have jigs that you can use to make the task quicker.

[mikeo]

Bogeymann,

I don't think that any of the BMAA (microlight) aircraft can be used for hours that can be logged on your UK PPL(A) - that's why a PFA permit aircraft is of more interest to me.

I went down to the Microlight fare at Popham over the 4th/ 5th May and what I find strange is that the same aircraft can be built as a microlight or a group A. However, the microlight version will typically have a 3 blade prop, possibly be faster and have simpler ignition requirements.

I'm looking at buying a completed or repairable PFA type aircraft that I can use for hour building. I'll be going to Kemble as well!

:cool:

[Pilotage]

Mikeo is obviously correct, but imho you have to ask yourself...

- Do I want to fly for fun?
- Do I want to gain meaningful flying experience?
- Do I want to be able to travel by air in my own aircraft?
- Do I want to hourbuild for a commercial license?

Only the last question necessarily requires something that isn't a microlight.

One or two useful links...

List of all PFA approved types (mostly homebuilts) (http://www.pfa.org.uk/aircraft_technical/accepted_aircraft/index.asp)

List of BMAA approved homebuilts (http://www.bmaa.org/hads.htm)

List of all BMAA approved types (mostly factory built or vintage) (http://www.bmaa.org/021_1.pdf)

US based bulletin board for homebuilders (http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/index.php)

P

N.B. Bogeyman - what is it you've built?

[Girl Flyday]

Thanks for all the comments / advice / links - this really isn't a subject I've looked into before, and so it's very helpful to get some other opinions first! We're now looking forward to taking a good look at some of the kits available at the rally :)

As for what we're looking for here... I would guess all except the hours-building would probably apply (particularly the 'having fun' bit), as I've more or less abandoned my dreams of 'going commercial' now. But not of moving to France someday - and having my own hangar/strip etc!

Hey - what's life, without dreams? ;)

GF - and potential co-builder(s)

"She always did love a challenge!"

[stiknruda]

GF,

May I suggest that you do not restrict yourself to kits?

I built mine from plans and this allowed me to source the material from the best/cheapest/lowest lead-time suppliers.

As it is a non CofA aeroplane it is amazing which places suddenly become aircraft part stockists...

B&Q
Maplins
Radio Spares
Demon Tweeks



to name but a few.

You also have the flexibility to make very subtle changes that obviously do not require PFA approval - such as rearranging the instrument panel. The kit may come with a specific panel layout which when you try to alter it requires you to buy a longer tacho drive cable or may need a 90degree tacho drive adaptor - more expense!

[Girl Flyday]

Stik - thank you for displaying such touching faith in my (or our!) abilities ;) But yes, it's certainly worth looking into! Where would you suggest as a source of plans? (It's not something that's ever crossed my mind before!)

GF :ok:

[Crossedcontrols]

There is a thread elsewhere on PPRuNe discussing the merits of two of the most popular kits, the Composite Europa, and the metal Vans RV series. Might be a good idea to chat up some owners and cadge a flight, and ask them why they chose a particular model.

CC

[stiknruda]

GF - best bet is to look at the PFA website.

You really do need to decide what sort of aeroplane that you and your cohorts actually want to build.

Do you have a copy of Aircraft Spruce & Specialty's catalogue?

I have an old one that you may have. It gives details of EAA approved kits/plans in the front. Many are also PFA approved.


The only valuable advice I had when starting out on my build was,

Do something every single day to your project and it will soon be finished.

"Do something" encompasses all activity; be it make something, bolting something on, prime/paint something, order something, study the plans, sit in it and dream! If you start letting the days go by, they become weeks, months and the next thing that you'll do is advertise it in the back of PF as an unfinished project!

Do not underestimate the amount of work involved. People probably think that I exagerate when I say I spent 10 man days just masking the fuselage and wings in preparation for spraying the three colours onto my aeroplane - it takes time to do it properly.

There is also a strange dichotomy between build time and quailty. You will very quickly decide what is acceptable to you - sure, it will be safe and functional but could you make it any better?

Workshop.

Where are you going to make this aeroplane?

Do not underestimate how important the quality and comfort of your workshop is. Frankly, if mine had not been at home, then I'd never have had the discipline to travel to the project and it would have been another one of those projects that is advertised regularly in the back of PF.

It needs to be warm and light and large enough to comfortably work on the large components - fuselage and one piece wing being the largest. If it is large enough to rig the aircraft even better. I had to rig my biplane in my workshop to make several components.

I also managed to do all my engine runs and taxi/brake tests before it ever saw an aerodrome.

Find a PFA inspector who is prepared to help you. Easier said than done! I ended up using a chap in Nottingham - a 320 mile round trip that I made several times a year - often towing a trailer packed with aeroplane!

If you want more detail PM me with 'phone number and I'll bell you.

My last words are - do not set out on this avenue thinking that you will end up with an inexpensive aeroplane to fly. Only do this if you actually want to build an aeroplane

Stik

[Genghis the Engineer]

Apart from his forgetting that lots of homebuilts go through the BMAA, and one or two through CAA direct - Stiknruda speaks much sense. Especially, in my opinion, about workshops.

Incidentally I believe that the fastest fast-build kits on sale in the UK (things like the Rans, X'Air, Sky Ranger) are taking around 400 man (person!)-hours to complete. I've also seen it shown that "amateur-build" labour on aeroplanes takes 3-5 times as many hours to do any given job than skilled labour.

G

[tacpot]

Building from plans has a number of advantages to my mind:

1. The build can be spread of a number of years and therefore the cost to build can be spread so as to keep it very low (until the powerplant has to be purchased, but you can save a bit each year for this as well.)

2. There is no danger of the kit manufacturer going out of business during the build.

3. You will have all the skills to repair the aircraft if it should be damaged.

4. You can potentially delay the point at which you require large workshop facilities, by building up sub-assemblies just to the point where they will still fit your workshop.

The down-sides are the length of time it takes, and the potential to increase the the cost/complexity of tools you need to complete the build. But the build is going to take a long time whichever way you do it, and tools can be begged/borrowed/hired. In the same way that you have more options for suppliers of aicraft materials, you also have more options for getting more complex work done.

[stiknruda]

Mate of mine is marketing the Bearhawk aeroplane in the States.

Yesterday, I received a brochure. It looks pretty good and the perf stats seem reasonable - so if you are looking for a 4 seat tube and fabric Super Super Cub, it may be worth exploring.

There is a Bearhawk website out there somewhere, am sure a Google search will find it.

Stik

[Windy Militant]

GF as an addition to all the sound advice can I suggest a couple more ideas
First get along to your Local PFA strut or group. Most of them will welcome new faces, and homebuilders as a rule are usually more than keen to show off their toys. This will give you an idea about different construction methods and what will suit you best.

Secondly after you have decided on what you think might be a suitable type get friendly with someone who's already flying one and go for a couple of flights with them. Share costs if you have to, but what can seem to be a delight on a ten minute test jolly might not be so wonderful after a couple of hours.

Also figure in ground costs in your planning "Hot Ships" will need longer runways so Parking/Hangerage will be higher than if you build a strip hopper.

Third and most important HAVE FUN!:ok:

[stiknruda]

GF

Whilst looking for something else I came across this:-

http://www.airbum.com/articles.html

Budd has an 11 article series telling you all that you need to know about home building.

I'll let you into a secret, I know Budd pretty well, if you forget all the American hype/spin he is a pretty down to earth guy and generally talks a lot of sense.

Enjoy

Stik

[Girl Flyday]

Many thanks again for all the helpful advice and links - looks like I have plenty of reading to do when I get home tonight!

GF

[ChrisVJ]

About buying.
1. Match the plane's abilities to your expectations. Build a sensible plane first time round.
2. If there is even the tingiest smidgeon of doubt about financial securtiy of manufacturer buy the whole plane except engine and instruments in one hit. Have them crate it on the loading dock before you forward the main payment.
3. Buy the instruments last. Some of the manufacturers cheat on the warranty and do it from date of sale. You don't want them out of warranty before you even test them!
4. If you are a 'wannafly' rather than a 'wannabuild' get the most built kit you can. (EG you can buy an RV with wings built and tanks installed and tested for anly about 3500 US extra. Almost Nothing in GBP!
5. Almost nothing in aviation is cheap. Some kits work out expensive when all is done but those who say a kit is NEVER a cheaper way into a plane are just plain wrong.
6. Join the Inet group for your plane. (I would not build a plane without a group's support.)
7. Allow approx double manufacturer's quoted hours to completion.
8. Budget 10 to 15% for over runs, then work hard at containing cost early on. Remember you will be making important purchases, instruments and avionics near the sharp end of your budget.

About building.
1. While you are waiting build a nice rolling toolchest/parts storage/catalogue system etc. Will Save hundreds of hours.
2. Work within seconds of your armchair. Far too easy to put off a 20 min drive as 'not worth it.'
3. When friends say, "Oh just ask if you need help" ENGAGE THEM ALL. Give them regular times, Learn to work and direct but also make it social too. It is awful being half way through in the hard slog bit and not having help or social contact and lots of them really would like to help. (I was told by several afterwards that they were really upset I did not call them.)
5. Get the manual while you are waiting and work out every possible move.
6. Build every day. A two day 'rest' quickly becomes a couple of months with nothing done.

I think it is a bit like having babies or building a house. The day you finish you'll never do it again. Six months later you can't wait to start the next one.

Been there, done it, love it.