Home-builds
So close, and yet so far!
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Home-builds
I'm hoping to buy (and build!) a home-build aeroplane sometime this year - and wondered if anyone had any recommendations / tips / whatever....
I guess I'm looking more for performance rather than price (within reason!) - and at the moment am thinking of waiting to take a look round at the PFA Rally (where I'll be working in ops - please make yourself known, if you fly in!) before making a decision - but any input from fellow PPRuNers would be much appreciated.
GF
I guess I'm looking more for performance rather than price (within reason!) - and at the moment am thinking of waiting to take a look round at the PFA Rally (where I'll be working in ops - please make yourself known, if you fly in!) before making a decision - but any input from fellow PPRuNers would be much appreciated.
GF
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Long job! Hundreds of hours...
Richard H built a Europa and has got its Permit to Fly. He seems happy...
You at the PFA Rally? Planning to go, probably the Friday.
Richard H built a Europa and has got its Permit to Fly. He seems happy...
You at the PFA Rally? Planning to go, probably the Friday.
So close, and yet so far!
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Yes, I figured it wouldn't be an overnight job - but after all these years I think I may have finally mastered the art of patience! (I hope 
) Besides - it was originally my partner's idea, and so there will be at least two of us 'on the job'! (I have a couple of willing friends, too...)
I didn't mean build this year though - just start building!
As for the PFA Rally - I'll be there every day, so do give me a shout as I'd hate to miss you! (Same goes for anyone else too - I'll let you have my mobile number if you want it)
GF
) Besides - it was originally my partner's idea, and so there will be at least two of us 'on the job'! (I have a couple of willing friends, too...)I didn't mean build this year though - just start building!
As for the PFA Rally - I'll be there every day, so do give me a shout as I'd hate to miss you! (Same goes for anyone else too - I'll let you have my mobile number if you want it)
GF
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Go for it! I've been delighted at some of the "homebuilts" I've seen, and the happy proud smiles on the owners' faces.
I did have your mobile number, but when I changed phones, the software blew out and lost some - incl yours. Canst PM it?
I did have your mobile number, but when I changed phones, the software blew out and lost some - incl yours. Canst PM it?
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You might start with using the EAA as a source of kits; advice, etc.
http://w3.one.net/~fhoward/eaa/
I suggest you find one with as much prefab assemblies as possible.
Good luck.
http://w3.one.net/~fhoward/eaa/
I suggest you find one with as much prefab assemblies as possible.
Good luck.
Also try the PFA at www.pfa.org.uk. The PFA has to approve any homebuilt to be constructed in the UK and a lot of the wonderful designs you can see elsewhere are NOT approved for the UK market. There is still a bewildering choice of aircraft out there though. You could also reduce your build time by buying a partially completed kit or a rebuild / restoration project.
When you start your build, you will have to be a member of the PFA to register the aircraft and also to get the various stages of the build approved by a PFA inspector.
The PFA Rally is a MUST DO for anybody wanting to build a kit or buy a vintage taildragger. All the major players in the UK kit market will be there and there will also be a lot of finished kits or the aforementioned vintage taildraggers with a " For Sale" sign hanging off the prop. There are quite a few people who enjoy the build process, fly the aircraft for 10 - 20 hours and then sell it to finance their next build project. Beats me why they do it but there's nowt so strange as folks
When you start your build, you will have to be a member of the PFA to register the aircraft and also to get the various stages of the build approved by a PFA inspector.
The PFA Rally is a MUST DO for anybody wanting to build a kit or buy a vintage taildragger. All the major players in the UK kit market will be there and there will also be a lot of finished kits or the aforementioned vintage taildraggers with a " For Sale" sign hanging off the prop. There are quite a few people who enjoy the build process, fly the aircraft for 10 - 20 hours and then sell it to finance their next build project. Beats me why they do it but there's nowt so strange as folks
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An earlier post on this topic was wrong. The PFA are not the only organisation that look after Homebuilts. The BMAA look after quite a number - infact its an increasing number - of machines. I understand that three notables in this are the Easy Raider, the Escapade and the Skyranger. www.slowflight.co.uk and www.flylight.co.uk (I think).
In fact I just wish I had bought a BMAA supported kit, rather than a PFA one, for my last build as the drag on an on and on for bits of paper, waiting for tech office bods to come back of holiday etc has been a nightmare. I also think that the BMAA is cheaper.
Next for me will be either the Escapade or the Skyranger...
In fact I just wish I had bought a BMAA supported kit, rather than a PFA one, for my last build as the drag on an on and on for bits of paper, waiting for tech office bods to come back of holiday etc has been a nightmare. I also think that the BMAA is cheaper.
Next for me will be either the Escapade or the Skyranger...
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things to do !
I wish you luck with this project but remember most kit aircraft do not get finnished but the people who started them.
To choose the best aircraft for you look at what is getting completed by the first owners , the Vans and europa spring to mind but others on the forum may have other ideas.
Then find yourself a PFA inspector and take him out for a beer or two , you will soon be told if he thinks that the kit you like is within your ability and you will find out what the snags are with the aircraft.
He will also tell you the best way to go about building the aircraft and put you in contact with other builders some of these may have jigs that you can use to make the task quicker.
To choose the best aircraft for you look at what is getting completed by the first owners , the Vans and europa spring to mind but others on the forum may have other ideas.
Then find yourself a PFA inspector and take him out for a beer or two , you will soon be told if he thinks that the kit you like is within your ability and you will find out what the snags are with the aircraft.
He will also tell you the best way to go about building the aircraft and put you in contact with other builders some of these may have jigs that you can use to make the task quicker.
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Bogeymann,
I don't think that any of the BMAA (microlight) aircraft can be used for hours that can be logged on your UK PPL(A) - that's why a PFA permit aircraft is of more interest to me.
I went down to the Microlight fare at Popham over the 4th/ 5th May and what I find strange is that the same aircraft can be built as a microlight or a group A. However, the microlight version will typically have a 3 blade prop, possibly be faster and have simpler ignition requirements.
I'm looking at buying a completed or repairable PFA type aircraft that I can use for hour building. I'll be going to Kemble as well!
I don't think that any of the BMAA (microlight) aircraft can be used for hours that can be logged on your UK PPL(A) - that's why a PFA permit aircraft is of more interest to me.
I went down to the Microlight fare at Popham over the 4th/ 5th May and what I find strange is that the same aircraft can be built as a microlight or a group A. However, the microlight version will typically have a 3 blade prop, possibly be faster and have simpler ignition requirements.
I'm looking at buying a completed or repairable PFA type aircraft that I can use for hour building. I'll be going to Kemble as well!
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Mikeo is obviously correct, but imho you have to ask yourself...
- Do I want to fly for fun?
- Do I want to gain meaningful flying experience?
- Do I want to be able to travel by air in my own aircraft?
- Do I want to hourbuild for a commercial license?
Only the last question necessarily requires something that isn't a microlight.
One or two useful links...
List of all PFA approved types (mostly homebuilts)
List of BMAA approved homebuilts
List of all BMAA approved types (mostly factory built or vintage)
US based bulletin board for homebuilders
P
N.B. Bogeyman - what is it you've built?
- Do I want to fly for fun?
- Do I want to gain meaningful flying experience?
- Do I want to be able to travel by air in my own aircraft?
- Do I want to hourbuild for a commercial license?
Only the last question necessarily requires something that isn't a microlight.
One or two useful links...
List of all PFA approved types (mostly homebuilts)
List of BMAA approved homebuilts
List of all BMAA approved types (mostly factory built or vintage)
US based bulletin board for homebuilders
P
N.B. Bogeyman - what is it you've built?
So close, and yet so far!
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Thanks for all the comments / advice / links - this really isn't a subject I've looked into before, and so it's very helpful to get some other opinions first! We're now looking forward to taking a good look at some of the kits available at the rally 
As for what we're looking for here... I would guess all except the hours-building would probably apply (particularly the 'having fun' bit), as I've more or less abandoned my dreams of 'going commercial' now. But not of moving to France someday - and having my own hangar/strip etc!
Hey - what's life, without dreams?
GF - and potential co-builder(s)
"She always did love a challenge!"
As for what we're looking for here... I would guess all except the hours-building would probably apply (particularly the 'having fun' bit), as I've more or less abandoned my dreams of 'going commercial' now. But not of moving to France someday - and having my own hangar/strip etc!
Hey - what's life, without dreams?
GF - and potential co-builder(s)
"She always did love a challenge!"
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GF,
May I suggest that you do not restrict yourself to kits?
I built mine from plans and this allowed me to source the material from the best/cheapest/lowest lead-time suppliers.
As it is a non CofA aeroplane it is amazing which places suddenly become aircraft part stockists...
B&Q
Maplins
Radio Spares
Demon Tweeks
to name but a few.
You also have the flexibility to make very subtle changes that obviously do not require PFA approval - such as rearranging the instrument panel. The kit may come with a specific panel layout which when you try to alter it requires you to buy a longer tacho drive cable or may need a 90degree tacho drive adaptor - more expense!
May I suggest that you do not restrict yourself to kits?
I built mine from plans and this allowed me to source the material from the best/cheapest/lowest lead-time suppliers.
As it is a non CofA aeroplane it is amazing which places suddenly become aircraft part stockists...
B&Q
Maplins
Radio Spares
Demon Tweeks
to name but a few.
You also have the flexibility to make very subtle changes that obviously do not require PFA approval - such as rearranging the instrument panel. The kit may come with a specific panel layout which when you try to alter it requires you to buy a longer tacho drive cable or may need a 90degree tacho drive adaptor - more expense!
So close, and yet so far!
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Stik - thank you for displaying such touching faith in my (or our!) abilities But yes, it's certainly worth looking into! Where would you suggest as a source of plans? (It's not something that's ever crossed my mind before!)
GF
But yes, it's certainly worth looking into! Where would you suggest as a source of plans? (It's not something that's ever crossed my mind before!)GF
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There is a thread elsewhere on PPRuNe discussing the merits of two of the most popular kits, the Composite Europa, and the metal Vans RV series. Might be a good idea to chat up some owners and cadge a flight, and ask them why they chose a particular model.
CC
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Plans
GF - best bet is to look at the PFA website.
You really do need to decide what sort of aeroplane that you and your cohorts actually want to build.
Do you have a copy of Aircraft Spruce & Specialty's catalogue?
I have an old one that you may have. It gives details of EAA approved kits/plans in the front. Many are also PFA approved.
The only valuable advice I had when starting out on my build was,
Do something every single day to your project and it will soon be finished.
"Do something" encompasses all activity; be it make something, bolting something on, prime/paint something, order something, study the plans, sit in it and dream! If you start letting the days go by, they become weeks, months and the next thing that you'll do is advertise it in the back of PF as an unfinished project!
Do not underestimate the amount of work involved. People probably think that I exagerate when I say I spent 10 man days just masking the fuselage and wings in preparation for spraying the three colours onto my aeroplane - it takes time to do it properly.
There is also a strange dichotomy between build time and quailty. You will very quickly decide what is acceptable to you - sure, it will be safe and functional but could you make it any better?
Workshop.
Where are you going to make this aeroplane?
Do not underestimate how important the quality and comfort of your workshop is. Frankly, if mine had not been at home, then I'd never have had the discipline to travel to the project and it would have been another one of those projects that is advertised regularly in the back of PF.
It needs to be warm and light and large enough to comfortably work on the large components - fuselage and one piece wing being the largest. If it is large enough to rig the aircraft even better. I had to rig my biplane in my workshop to make several components.
I also managed to do all my engine runs and taxi/brake tests before it ever saw an aerodrome.
Find a PFA inspector who is prepared to help you. Easier said than done! I ended up using a chap in Nottingham - a 320 mile round trip that I made several times a year - often towing a trailer packed with aeroplane!
If you want more detail PM me with 'phone number and I'll bell you.
My last words are - do not set out on this avenue thinking that you will end up with an inexpensive aeroplane to fly. Only do this if you actually want to build an aeroplane
Stik
You really do need to decide what sort of aeroplane that you and your cohorts actually want to build.
Do you have a copy of Aircraft Spruce & Specialty's catalogue?
I have an old one that you may have. It gives details of EAA approved kits/plans in the front. Many are also PFA approved.
The only valuable advice I had when starting out on my build was,
Do something every single day to your project and it will soon be finished.
"Do something" encompasses all activity; be it make something, bolting something on, prime/paint something, order something, study the plans, sit in it and dream! If you start letting the days go by, they become weeks, months and the next thing that you'll do is advertise it in the back of PF as an unfinished project!
Do not underestimate the amount of work involved. People probably think that I exagerate when I say I spent 10 man days just masking the fuselage and wings in preparation for spraying the three colours onto my aeroplane - it takes time to do it properly.
There is also a strange dichotomy between build time and quailty. You will very quickly decide what is acceptable to you - sure, it will be safe and functional but could you make it any better?
Workshop.
Where are you going to make this aeroplane?
Do not underestimate how important the quality and comfort of your workshop is. Frankly, if mine had not been at home, then I'd never have had the discipline to travel to the project and it would have been another one of those projects that is advertised regularly in the back of PF.
It needs to be warm and light and large enough to comfortably work on the large components - fuselage and one piece wing being the largest. If it is large enough to rig the aircraft even better. I had to rig my biplane in my workshop to make several components.
I also managed to do all my engine runs and taxi/brake tests before it ever saw an aerodrome.
Find a PFA inspector who is prepared to help you. Easier said than done! I ended up using a chap in Nottingham - a 320 mile round trip that I made several times a year - often towing a trailer packed with aeroplane!
If you want more detail PM me with 'phone number and I'll bell you.
My last words are - do not set out on this avenue thinking that you will end up with an inexpensive aeroplane to fly. Only do this if you actually want to build an aeroplane
Stik
Apart from his forgetting that lots of homebuilts go through the BMAA, and one or two through CAA direct - Stiknruda speaks much sense. Especially, in my opinion, about workshops.
Incidentally I believe that the fastest fast-build kits on sale in the UK (things like the Rans, X'Air, Sky Ranger) are taking around 400 man (person!)-hours to complete. I've also seen it shown that "amateur-build" labour on aeroplanes takes 3-5 times as many hours to do any given job than skilled labour.
G
Incidentally I believe that the fastest fast-build kits on sale in the UK (things like the Rans, X'Air, Sky Ranger) are taking around 400 man (person!)-hours to complete. I've also seen it shown that "amateur-build" labour on aeroplanes takes 3-5 times as many hours to do any given job than skilled labour.
G
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Building from plans has a number of advantages to my mind:
1. The build can be spread of a number of years and therefore the cost to build can be spread so as to keep it very low (until the powerplant has to be purchased, but you can save a bit each year for this as well.)
2. There is no danger of the kit manufacturer going out of business during the build.
3. You will have all the skills to repair the aircraft if it should be damaged.
4. You can potentially delay the point at which you require large workshop facilities, by building up sub-assemblies just to the point where they will still fit your workshop.
The down-sides are the length of time it takes, and the potential to increase the the cost/complexity of tools you need to complete the build. But the build is going to take a long time whichever way you do it, and tools can be begged/borrowed/hired. In the same way that you have more options for suppliers of aicraft materials, you also have more options for getting more complex work done.
1. The build can be spread of a number of years and therefore the cost to build can be spread so as to keep it very low (until the powerplant has to be purchased, but you can save a bit each year for this as well.)
2. There is no danger of the kit manufacturer going out of business during the build.
3. You will have all the skills to repair the aircraft if it should be damaged.
4. You can potentially delay the point at which you require large workshop facilities, by building up sub-assemblies just to the point where they will still fit your workshop.
The down-sides are the length of time it takes, and the potential to increase the the cost/complexity of tools you need to complete the build. But the build is going to take a long time whichever way you do it, and tools can be begged/borrowed/hired. In the same way that you have more options for suppliers of aicraft materials, you also have more options for getting more complex work done.
Last edited by tacpot; 14th May 2003 at 22:58.
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Mate of mine is marketing the Bearhawk aeroplane in the States.
Yesterday, I received a brochure. It looks pretty good and the perf stats seem reasonable - so if you are looking for a 4 seat tube and fabric Super Super Cub, it may be worth exploring.
There is a Bearhawk website out there somewhere, am sure a Google search will find it.
Stik
Yesterday, I received a brochure. It looks pretty good and the perf stats seem reasonable - so if you are looking for a 4 seat tube and fabric Super Super Cub, it may be worth exploring.
There is a Bearhawk website out there somewhere, am sure a Google search will find it.
Stik