Suitable aircraft to learn in

[NinjaBill]

Hi there all.

I am wanting to start my ppl soon, and have decided fo fly from Sherburn as it is only about 10 miles from my house. My question is regarding choosing which aircraft to fly in.

I have experience flying SLMGs with air cadets, and Sherburn have a robin 2160 that can be used. I Think that this may be the best aircraft for me to learn in, as it seems similar in some respects to the SLMGs that i am used to (control column, good visability) however i understand that it would be an unusual choice of training aircraft.

It costs about £5 more per hour to fly, but this is not a great issue. Could the aircrafts basic airobatic ability give it a lower primary stability, making it more difficult to fly, or is this not the case

What is everyones opinion. Do you think i would be best learning in this aircraft, or in a pa28/c150 which seem to be more popular choices.

NB

[tacpot]

I think the Robin 2160 would be an excellect aircraft for you to learn to fly in. You have correctly identified the similarities in the basic configuration of the aircraft (low wing, control column not a yoke, good vis etc.) that will mean that at least in you own mind you are not taking a step too far away from what you know.

The more popular choices of PA28/C150/C152 are not driven by customer popularity but by operator popularity! This popularity is (I suspect) mainly driven by commercial concerns.

The aerobatic capabilities of the aircraft will not make it difficult to fly, rather the opposite.

[Final 3 Greens]

NB

I did my first 10 hours on C150/2 and finished it on a PA28. A few hundred hours later I fly a Beagle Pup.

The C150/2 is a better trainer than the PA28 (which is just too docile), but I imagine that the Robin would be similar in some respects to the Pup.

Once you have got used to the crisper handling (which will feel very different to the SLMG), your flying will become more accurate and you will love it.

Whatever you choose, enjoy!

[Evo]

I fly the Robin 2160 - love it, and I think it would be an excellent training aeroplane. Wish i'd done my PPL on it! I don't think stability is a problem. It's a very flyable aeroplane. Only problem is that spamcans will seem a bit dull in comparison when you've got your PPL and want to take up more than one passenger :)

[Monocock]

I agree Evo, wish i'd had the chance to learn in a 2160.

It's like learning to drive in a MGF whilst others are learning in 1989 Nissan Micras (like I did!).

[DRJAD]

I fly both PA28s and R2160s from Sherburn, where I trained on PA28s - and did the R2160 conversion after gaining a licence.

True, the R2160 is great to fly, and does not seem over lively - just very responsive.

However, I would sound a note of practicality in training. Sherburn has 4 PA28-Cadets and 3 PA28-Warriors available for training. Has 2 R2160s for basic training and aerobatic training. I'd suspect that the availability of PA28s is much greater consequently, and will give you more flexibility.

[knobbygb]

I also fly Pa28's and 2160's out of Sherburn, having converted to the Robin recently.

The 2160 is indeed very nice to fly, although it's a bit more of a handful than the slower and more stable Pipers and Cessnas. Looking back to my basic training, I had my hands full handling the Pa28 in those first few hours and the Robin would have been even harder work. Depends what kind of person you are - if you like the 'in at the deep end' approach go for the Robin. It's nice, and as you say, £5/hr makes little difference.

If I was training again, I'd split my training between both types, with some C150 work thrown in too for good measure. That way I'd come out of it a more rounded pilot. Do the first stage of the course (to solo consolidation) in one type then experiment a bit with others.

As for availability, yes, the Pa28's are more usually used for training, but some do train on the Robins. Since converting I have found that Robins are easier to book at short notice because, although there are only two, less people use them. If you plan well ahead you should have no problems getting the bookings you require.

PM me and I'll happily chat in more detail if you want.

[Hersham Boy]

I was advised to learn in the cheapest, with a view to flying what I want once I passed. Seemed to make sense to me. C152 was the beast (mouse?) and some of the less pristene ones were perfectly good at catching you out in stalls etc. with some nasty wingdrops.

Not exactly an exciting a/c to fly but, then again, just flying is exciting, right? :)

Hersh

[FlyingForFun]

When I was hour-building, the school I hired from were training someone for his PPL on a Piper Super Cub. He passed his check-ride a week before I left.

I don't recall seeing "Tiger Moth" post on here for a little while, but he's doing his PPL on, you guessed it, a Tiger Moth, and soloed it a little while ago.

Basically, if you want to learn on a specific aircraft, then go for it. As long as it's a single-engine and doesn't have complexities like a variable-pitch prop, it shouldn't cause you any trouble as long as you have an instructor who's familiar with the type. The only things which might be a factor would be cost and availability. But as long as you understand that and go in with your eyes open, I don't see it being an issue.

Good luck - and have fun!

FFF
---------------

[MLS-12D]

As long as it's a single-engine and doesn't have complexities like a variable-pitch prop, it shouldn't cause you any trouble Even a variable pitch prop doesn't necessarily rule out an airplane for ab initio training; at least, the DA20-A1 (http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/diamond-katana) has one, and it doesn't seem to pose much of a problem for most students (although personally I'm not a fan of the aircraft).

[Lowtimer]

Don't have a source to hand but I once was told by an airline training captain that at one stage ab-initio Lufthansa students were required to solo the Bonanza in around 6 hours from scratch, or get washed out. The RAF at one point also taught ab initio on the Jet Provost, though they subsequently reintroduced a pre-primary phase on SEP types.

So feel free to train on the Robin, and do some spinning and basic aeros while you're at it.

[IO540-C4D5D]

NinjaBill

Ask yourself WHY you are learning to fly.

If just as a personal challenge, or to prove to your mates down the pub that you can do it, go for a C150/C152 - it is perhaps the easiest plane to LAND due to the absence of ground effect (every plane is easy to FLY although some e.g. a Tomahawk are too unstable to mess about with a chart in the cockpit etc).

If you want to fly seriously afterwards though, then ask yourself what you might want to fly then. Look around at your local field for shares for sale, or even planes for sale. (I doubt you will do much flying on hourly-billed self fly hire; very few people do due to the huge cost of a decent trip somewhere and the impossibility of going away with it for a week etc)

If you think you can afford to buy into a PA28 group for example then (assuming the group plane is on a Public Transport CofA) buy into it now (**) and do your PPL in it. Same if you want to buy a plane - assuming you are reasonably intelligent the foregoing is IMHO true even if you want to fly something quite complex. The huge advantage of learning in what you will fly eventually is that when you've got your PPL you already have some 50-70 hours on type and you know it inside out.

(**) before buying into a group, ask around re any problems with existing members, and discreetly get an experienced pilot / engineer to give you a discreet view on the plane. Don't ask an instructor in your school for his view - OF COURSE he wants you to rent his by the hour.

I've been around this block well and truly....

[HelenD]

IO540-C4D5D you say every plane is easy to FLY although some e.g. a Tomahawk are too unstable to mess about with a chart in the cockpit etc I diddnt find it any worse than a PA28 when I was learning. I have a soft spot for the Tommohawk (PA38) and would recomend it for learning in as it lets you know when you get things wrong.

[witchdoctor]

I learned to fly initially on a Bulldog, and subsequently began again some years later on a PA28. The Warrior was a fat lazy dollop with a stupid and undignified entry/exit compared to the Bulldog, which had lovely crisp handling allowing for really accurate flying, and a bubble canopy for a fabulous view (which is one of the major pleasures of flying anyway).

If money isn't an issue (and £5 ph isn't exactly a fortune), go for the much better handling and more enjoyable aircraft. I don't think you'll ever regret it.

[deanofs]

Hi

Also learning at Sherburn having been at Leeds before.

Everything previously mentioned applies, eg the number of PA28's but also although the Robin is a fiver more per hour over the 45 + hours that equals £225 which in my book would be better for more lessons etc. Great club and super people, look forward to seeing you there sometime. Contact me if you want to

I flew C172 and C152 at Leeds and also had a go in a Robin, personally I like the PA28s and certainly low wing is much eaier in the circuit.

Cheers

[IO540-C4D5D]

HelenD

I have about 25 hrs on the Terrorhawk and yes it does let you know when you have stalled - the resulting instant plummet with a wing drop, done from 5000ft and left to fully develop, beats any fairground ride! It's a fun plane but if I was aiming to learn in the one I am likely to fly afterwards I would not choose the PA38 because

a) it is going to be a lot more tiring to fly on longer trips than a PA28 (the elevator trim is absolute c**p)

b) very few of them around outside a few schools so self fly hire availability is generally not good (they only made them for about two years c. 1980, stopped because too many people got killed in them)

I also have 40 hrs in a C152 and 60 hrs in a PA28-161/181 and would say all three fly entirely differently. Which is not to disagree with you as to the relative reaction of a new student to the different types.

But, when learning, one should consider what is available to fly post-PPL locally. No problem not to - you just waste a lot more money :O

[paulo]

Ford Cortinas vs. a BMW or an Audi... The Robin isn't a Ferrari, but Pierre's aircraft are sweet and neat. They fly nice and 'tight' with - in the 2160 at least - visibility that has been likened to being in a heli. Lovely aircraft. I trained in Warriors - never going back, just upside down, vertical up, vertical down... :-)

[foxmoth]

Another way of looking at these aorcraft is that the Robin is a Flying machine, the Cessnas and Pa28s are machines designed to go from A to B with minimum interference from the driver - if you want to learn to FLY rather than just drive an aircraft go for the Robin.

[HelenD]

IO540-C4D5D what you have said is very true. Must admit I would have never flown the PA38 if I had not gone to Inverness. I was quite anxious about them because of the stories I heard. Thankfully I was taught how nice they were and have a love of them now. Their only disadvantage is that they only have 2 seats. Having spent some time on them I went back to the PA28 at my south coast school and finally got solo on that. I have also tried the C172 but diddnt get on too well because of the electric flaps. Once I have more confidence and ability I will give the C172 another go. I have decided I will mainly stick to the PA28 but will fly a PA38 when ever I can as its both cheaper and more fun. I am taking the plunge soon and going to have a go at spinning the PA38.

[BlueRobin]

Really is a no-brainer. Robin has a stick 'n' rudder. Excellent visibility for aircraft avoidance, PFLs and steep turns.

Less cilivilised next to a Warrior but who cares? You'll be a better, more exclusive pilot for having learnt on the Robin.

You can alway "convert" onto the other types later on if needs be.



-BR-
*biased* ;-)

[IO540-C4D5D]

HelenD

Is the PA38 certified for spinning?????????????

If I was into aerobatics I would go up in a real aerobatic plane, with a REAL aerobatic instructor. It's a whole different game.

In normal flying you won't ever get anywhere near a spin - except on the turn from base to final and if you stall/spin there you are probably finished anyway (too low).

[HelenD]

Yes the PA38 is cleared for spinning but only in a clean configuration. As for instructors I will go up with one who regulary spins the PA38. I certainly wouldn't dream of spinning a PA38 with an instructor who normally only flys warriors or cessnas.

[PA38]

Get your instructor to spin the PA38 and watch the tail... you will NEVER spin another:eek:

[IO540-C4D5D]

I've spoken to a few people who have seen it waggle wildly from side to side... none have actually come off yet though.

[stiknruda]

Ninjabill,

Suggest that you forget all the hysteria regarding Tomahawk spinning and revisit the original question...

Last time I was at Sherburn - about a month ago for some aerobatic critique in my Pitts, I noticed a delightful CAP10B.

IIRC the hourly rental for that seemed very reasonable and I would suggest that you do at least some of your trg in that so that when it comes to skills-test time you could take your exam in the tailwheel aeroplane therby absolving you of the need to do an endorsement post PPL.

Stik

[FNG]

I agree with those who've said: train in the best aeroplane available. Stik's idea of using the Cap 10 is a good one, even though I'm biased. David Robson's aerobatics books reckons that it's the ideal training aircraft (and not just for aeros). The French Airforce thought so too. See also similar comments in the latest edition of Flyer. The advertised rates for the Sherburn Cap 10 are really good. I would say: go for that or the Robin, or a bit of both. There is no need to train on the usual tincans if there are more interesting choices available. When I dd the PPL, I avoided all the London Cessna/Piper schools and learned on Beagle Pups and a Bulldog. Much more fun, and the option of a loop or a roll to conclude a lesson was a bonus.

[NinjaBill]

Thanks for all your advice.

I took the plunge and had my first trial flight on monday, and found the aircraft very nice to fly. I was expecting it to be slightly unstable, as the wings were quire alot shorter than the 50 odd ft i am used to, and im not sure that my instructor was too keen on my gliderpilot-esq desire to fly towards the bottoms of the biggest darkest cu thatwere around because the rate of climb looked like it ould be about 6 - 8 kts greater there.

Im now just waiting until payday to buy my first block of hours, so i can start my training properly

Hopefully ill see you all around some day.

NB

[mad_jock]

:D

Bloody glider pilot converstions, its always fun teaching them.

Be gentle with the instructor, don't try and hoof the rudder pedal to stops everytime you bank. A wee squeeze will do.

And when doing PFL's don't do that dive it down to ground effect then try and bunny hop over the fence trick.

Glad you enjoyed it.

MJ

[sean1]

Started my training on a TB 9 then changed to C172.
The Socata was a dream to fly and very sensitive during flare.
The C 172 gave me good lookout instincts, very easy to land,but ours had a tendency to drop a wing during 'approach to landing 'stall. Once again good practice/experience.

After PPL have flown Tomahawk and Piper Archer.

DId some circuits at Point Cook with the PA 38.Not a pretty sight I imagined ,as could not get the 'Flare' technique right.
The Archer was very stable even in gusty conditions and my favourite.