Can I file an IFR flight plan?

[OBK!]

I have PPL/IMC/Multi but I have never been sure on this. Can I file an IFR flightplan as long as I doing go through Class A and as long as what I DO go through is within my minima. E.g Class D...3000m.

Maybe a silly question. I feel I should already know but I have never been sure?

[rustle]

If they're (licences/ratings) valid, yes you can.

Not sure what you mean about "Class D 3000m" :confused:
(Sounds like you're confusing the reduced SVFR minima of 3km instead of 10km for vanilla PPL)

A vanilla PPL can file/fly IFR in the UK in F/G airspace (up to "F")

An IMC holder can do so up to Class D. (G/F/E/D) [in the UK]

An IR holder up to Class A. (All classes)

[Tinstaafl]

It's legal for a PPL to fly IFR without at least an IMC or IR? That seems a bit strange.

[welkyboy]

If you are flying at night, an IFR flight plan has to be filed, as there is no VFR at night in UK airspace.
I once had to file an IFR flight plan out of Manchester for a night flight to Jersey, and was given a special VFR clearance out of Manchesters zone and a special VFR entry into Jerseys Zone, the bit in between I was flying VMC but not VFR!! This was in the days when as long as you were not carrying passengers at night you didnt need a night rating either!!! Its a grey area. Most airfields in UK seem to accept VFR fpls any time of day or night but it sometimes takes a bit of explaining to the staff.:confused: :confused:

[FNG]

Irv explains this very well but I don't have my notes of his briefing to hand. If I am flying VFR, I am making certain promises about various things including my horizontal separation from cloud. If I am flying IFR, I am making different promises. As mentioned above, a vanilla PPL in the UK can fly under IFR in uncontrolled airspace. This is useful if barrel rolling around (but not into) small stray clouds. Tinstaafl's post suggests that these things may be different in NZ.

[rustle]

Tinstaafl

It's legal for a PPL to fly IFR without at least an IMC or IR? That seems a bit strange.

Yup.

In the UK, on a CAA/JAA PPL, you can file/fly IFR in VMC in Classes F & G.

I suspect this is mainly to get around the situation welkyboy describes - where there is no night VFR in the UK.

You can be a PPL with night rating/qualification (but no instrument rating/IMC) and be legal at night.

[OBK!]

with the 3000m thing i was talking about IMC...i think :O I read in the book that I can accept SVFR in Class D with an IMC rating, or something like that.

Another thing. If I file a VFR flight plan, this is telling ATC that I am gona remain VMC all the way? Vice versa, what if I file IFR flightplan and I am actually VMC?

What if I get into IMC conditions whilst flying a VFR flightplan? There is a way also of anticipating changing conditions during flight and putting it in to the flight plan? Seomthing X/Z for VFR to IFR or IFR to VFR ? Thanks in advance, and for all your answers so far.

[Tinstaafl]

Oh. I didn't think about UK 'non' Night VFR.

I'm used to Oz and the US where night VFR is available.

The rules there say only an instrumented rated pilot can file IFR.


Even though I now work in the UK I still find lots of odd UK rules that don't seem to make sense.


How does PPL flying at night OCTA & therefore IFR deal with the - reasonable - expectation that they operate IAW IFR? Condering they won't have studied them, let alone be trained in their application?

Oh. I didn't think about UK 'non' Night VFR.

I'm used to Oz and the US where night VFR is available.

The rules there say only an instrumented rated pilot can file IFR.


Even though I now work in the UK I still find lots of odd UK rules that don't seem to make sense.


How does PPL flying at night OCTA & therefore IFR deal with the - reasonable - expectation that they operate IAW IFR? Condering they won't have studied them, let alone be trained in their application?

It seems to me that the current system has PPLs at night calling themselves IFR but effectively operating VFR at night.

[Aussie Andy]

OBK! - "rules" such as VFR/IFR is one thing, and "conditions" such as VMC/IMC is another. and the relationship between these is not universally the same in different jurisdictions, hence the surprised responses form anyone not based in the UK whenever the subject of IFR in class G comes up (as it has on this forum many times in the past).

As has been mentioned above, I think you would find Irv Lee very helpful at resolving some of your confusion on this stuff. Irv is a respected instructor and columnist (UK Flyer magazine and elsewhere). He runs fabulous "PPL Masterclass seminars" - see the link here (http://www.higherplane.flyer.co.uk/seminars.htm) - which I can personally recommend, and which are very good for helping see through the fog of all these confusing and apparently contradictory rules and regulations!

See also his Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.higherplane.flyer.co.uk/faq.htm) web page - this includes a section about Class D, SVFR, Night VFR, when non-IR rated UK PPLs might want to fly IFR, and more. for example, I quote from Irv's page:IFR is probably one of the most misunderstood concepts for UK pilots as the term IFR is used differently in the UK to other countries...

Hope this helps - and take my advice: try one of Irv's seminars... you'll learn a lot, and have a nice day out (usually uses a pub as the venue, so you'll enjoy a couple of pints too!)

andy

[rustle]

OBK!

Firstly, 3000m viz does not IMC make :)

A vanilla PPL can SVFR through class A with 10kms viz. (Heathrow zone is a common route, or the Channel Isles)

PPL with IMC can do so also obviously, but the min viz is reduced to 3km ( =3000m)


It's quite possible that you file IFR but are actually in VMC. One describes the rules you follow (IF-Rules) and one describes the weather (VM-Conditions)


Flight plans Y (Yankee) or Z (Zulu) are the ones where you expect to change RULES during the course of the flight (irrespective of met conditions)

Flight plans filed X (X-ray) are for eXams, and are usually only filed when you're flying your IRT or renewal...

[OBK!]

Ahh Isee

I could file an IFR flight plan to Le Touqeut on a clear day. This means I have told ATC I am using instruments, but I will be in VMC conditions. Vice versa. I could file a VFR flight plan, meaning I am looking outside, but it could almost be IMC. Therefore could I change fltplan to IFR? I would I have to divert?

[Aussie Andy]

Again: see http://www.higherplane.flyer.co.uk/faq.htm !!!

Hope this HELPS!

Andy :D

[18greens]

Just curious.

If someone without an IR (or a lapsed IR ) filed and flew in class A airways, who would know?

[bluskis]

They would would they not?

[Aussie Andy]

Maybe not until an incident took place, say an MOR or an airprox were filed, or an accident occured and an insurance adjuster and or AAIB investigated and discovered this.

But I think in practice it is possible that ATC might suspect something was not kosher, and then track you back to your home airfield, or call around other ATC units until they find out who you are. For example, I have met someone (who had an lapsed IR at the time) who wasn't paying enough attention and (stupidly!) climbed into Class A on the way out of the UK to the continent. They were working London Information at the time. Pretty soon (minutes) the radar controller concerned got onto London Info, asked if they had some prat at roughly position xxx, and then a message was passed asking him to confirm his position and level - and he was busted.

So, best play by the rules, eh!

Andy :cool:

[FlyingForFun]

I could file an IFR flight plan to Le Touqeut on a clear day. This means I have told ATC I am using instruments, but I will be in VMC conditionsAlmost right, but not quite.

IFR/VFR are sets of rules. For example, under IFR, you have to be 1000' above the ground except for departure and arrival. Under VFR, you have to be 1000' vertically/1500m horizontally from any clouds if you're above 3000'.

If you file IFR, you are accepting those rules. You must remain an appropriate height above the ground. But you may get a lot closer to clouds than you can if you are VFR. If your license allows it, you can go right into the clouds, but if you don't have an IR/IMC rating then your license will restrict you to staying clear of clouds even under IFR.

As for "using instruments", ATC don't really care what you use, so long as you can fly and navigate accurately. You can use a VOR to navigate VFR (although it should be backed up by visual navigation if possible). But when in VMC, you must always look out the window, whether you're IFR or VFR. Remember, in Class D, even if you are IFR, ATC will not separate you from VFR traffic - it's your responsibility to keep your eyes open, regardless of flight rules!

Why can't they make these things simple?

FFF
--------------

[Edit] Oops, got carried away with myself there - that wasn't even the reason for me posting! The thing I was originally going to say, before getting side-tracked, was a way of remembering the Y and Z codes. (Not that you need to remember them, you can look them up, but I needed to learn them for the ATPL exams, and this is what we were taught.)

IFR to VFR is Y - remember "IVY"
VFR to IFR is Z - remember "VIZ"

[18greens]

Aussie Andy,

I totally agree , play by the rules for insurance safety etc. and I would never dream of breaking them.

Its just that whever I file and fly ifr no-one checks to see if you have an IR much less whether it is valid.

[rustle]

OBK!

Ahh Isee

I could file an IFR flight plan to Le Touqeut on a clear day.

No, you could not.

Based on your original post I have PPL/IMC/Multi but I have never been sure on this... you do not have an IR, so you cannot file/fly IFR outside the UK whatever the Met conditions.

Best you could file/fly would be IFR to the FIR boundary, then VFR to LFAT - but I suspect you already knew that.

[Spitoon]

Just going back to the night time question, in the UK and outside controlled airspace, Rules 29 and 30 apply. If you distill these rules down, they say if you fly below 3000 ft, stay clear of cloud and in sight of the surface, then you are complying with the IFR. And that's how lots of flights are conducted visually at night in the UK.

To be fair, it gets a bit more complex inside controlled airspace - but mainly for the controller!

[englishal]

What about the channel islands then? Normally I'll file IFR, and submit an IFR flight plan, as everyone I have talked to recommends. However as mentioned in this post, SVFR minima for IMC holder is 3000m. Now entering the Channel Islands CTR you are permitted into the class A on a SVFR clearance. So what happens if you are in IMC? You are prohibited from entering the zone under SVFR as you're in IMC on an IFR flight plan, but your rating [IMC] prohibits IFR flight in Class A airspace.....?

Cheers
EA:D

[PhilD]

So you have to go somewhere else. France is off-limits in IMC, so no choice but to turn back to the UK.

[englishal]

Last I knew, the Channel Islands were part of Great Britain :D

[rustle]

EA

I am a bit confused...:confused:

I don't follow this: "Normally I'll file IFR, and submit an IFR flight plan..." then this "...entering the Channel Islands CTR you are permitted into the class A on a SVFR clearance"

If you've filed IFR and are flying in accordance with IFR then why are you suddenly SVFR when you get to the Channel Islands?

I thought you had an IR?

[englishal]

I've got the FAA IR and the IMC by virtue. The IMC rating doesn't allow flight in accordance with IFR in class A airspace as you know, so I'm just wondering how someone with an IMC can file IFR to the channel islands and enter the zone in IMC [conditions]. I can see how a VFR flight can be allowed in under a SVFR clearance.

When I did my first x-channel checkout several years ago the instructor recommended filing IFR with an IMC rating.

Cheers
EA:D

[2Donkeys]

Englishal

Your posting wrt the Channel Islands is correct.

Because the Channel islands Zone is Class A, you are not permitted to fly under IFR in the zone. This is outside the privileges of an IMC rating.

However, as you say, you can enter on a SVFR clearance - but you must respect the SVFR weather minima. This means that if entering the CI zone would place you in IMC, or in visual conditions below SVFR minima, then you may not enter the zone at all.

Your FPL has precious little to do with this. If you filed an IFR-only flight plan, all the way to the channel islands, then you were never going to be able to execute on it once you passed south of 50N (ORTAC or similar). This is because, regardless of the weather conditions you can't enter the zone IFR. Whilst it is a marginal point, you should have filed a composite plan.

Since you will be arriving from outside controlled airspace, there is a fair chance in any case, that the Jersey Zone controllers will ask you to confirm the type of zone entry you require, regardless of your flight plan. This is probably because the majority of IR holders approach the zone in Airway N866, where there should be no doubt as to their qualifications...

[englishal]

Thanks for the clarification 2D. I thought this was the case but a number of instructors I have spoken with said it was ok to file IFR all the way with an IMC rating.

Cheers
EA:D

[2Donkeys]

a number of instructors I have spoken with said it was ok to file IFR all the way with an IMC rating.

You can file it... but you can't fly it :D

Worth adding, in case this is what is confusing them, that to fly under IFR in Class A airspace requires the pilot to hold an IR, regardless of the weather conditions.

This is not one of those lumps of airspace (such as class G) where anybody can be IFR (even without an IMC), providing they stay clear of clouds.

Regards

[Jepp]

Also........if you are IMC rated and you file an IFR flight plan, wont you be given a SID as part of your initial clearance, to which you cannot comply because the SID will take you to an Airway (class A ) ???????

[Aussie Andy]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there are SIDs that don't necessarily take you into Class A - e.g. departing out of Shoreham? Maybe I'm wrong...

[2Donkeys]

Jepp and Andy

Most SIDs are designed to take the aircraft from the runway, to some of the more common airways entry points for the airfield concerned. For example, in the case of Jersey, the northerly SIDs tend to focus on ORTAC on N866.

If you file IFR (leaving aside legalities for a moment), and the Route you file on the plan makes it pretty clear that you are not taking an airways routing, then you will not be cleared via a SID.

Some airfields (such as Biggin) have non-airways SIDs which will not take you into controlled airspace. Shoreham does not publish any such departures that I can see. They are a convenience for ATCOs and are often employed at fields where the tower will hand you to a dedicated departure facility (such as Biggin Tower to Thames Radar in the case of EGKB).

In all cases, it is your responsibility as the pilot to decline any clearance you might receive that you are not legally able to accept, so if a mistake is made by ATC, and you are assumed to be Instrument Rated, it is your job to clarify the position.

regards

[DFC]

A Flight Plan is a message from the pilot to Air Traffic Services stating the intentions of that pilot. Nothing more and nothing less.

Unless told otherwise, ATS will assume that a pilot is operating in accordance with and will continue to operate in accordance with the flight plan.

If a flight is in VMC then regardless of flight rules, the pilot is responsible for maintaining an adequate lookout and complying with all the rules of the air including those for the avoidance of collisions.

IFR is simply a list of rules that can be conmplied with.
VFR is another set of rules that can be complied with.

If we had 8/8 blue weather then it would never make any overall difference which rules we followed in the FIR.

As an exercise, get out the instrument flight rules and compare them to a flight made in good weather at a reasonable height under VFR. One will probably find that most if not all the IFR rules were complied with also....i.e. height, quadrantal level etc.

VFR flight rules require an aircraft to remain in VMC and depending on height and speed, as well as the class of airspace, the VMC minima change.

Special VFR flight is a clearance to operate in a control zone which is Class A, or in IMC, or at night and is at the discretion of ATC.

Note that I said a special VFR clearance can be obtained to operate in IMC.

However, being IMC does not mean being in cloud or in very poor visibility.

Being IMC means being in a position where the weather minima are less than VMC requirements.

A pilot's licence authorises the pilot to fly with certain restrictions. In the case of the basic PPL, some of the requirements are that they can not operate in less than VMC at any time except on a Special VFR clearance when the visibility is at least 10Km.

Furthermore, a basic PPL can not operate in circumstances which require compliance with IFR. The important word here is "require".

With a night qualification, a pilot may operate when IFR is a requirement such as night provided that VMC and airspace minima are complied with (JAR-FCL).

Remember in relation to say a class D zone, VMC has both a visibility requirement and a distance from cloud requirement. One may come across an overcast at 1500ft above the surface with unlimited visibility beneath. In that case, a pilot entering at 1000ft would be in IMC (less than VFR minima) and thus would require a Special VFR clearance. Most people are well aware for the visibility but forget the clearance from cloud requirements!!

Gaining an IMC rating removes some of the licence restrictions from the PPL within the UK and gaining an IR removes further restrictions.

So to summarise, a Flight Plan is how you pass on your intentions. Thus if you don't have an IR, you will not intend to fly IFR in Class A airspace.

IFR and VFR are simply a set of rules.

Licenses have restrictions which must be complied with at all times.

Finally, Use the remarks section of a flight plan to explain exactly what you want......eg. "RMK/IFR to 50N then request SVFR entry"

Regards,

DFC