Can I file an IFR flight plan?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 524
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can I file an IFR flight plan?
I have PPL/IMC/Multi but I have never been sure on this. Can I file an IFR flightplan as long as I doing go through Class A and as long as what I DO go through is within my minima. E.g Class D...3000m.
Maybe a silly question. I feel I should already know but I have never been sure?
Maybe a silly question. I feel I should already know but I have never been sure?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If they're (licences/ratings) valid, yes you can.
Not sure what you mean about "Class D 3000m"
(Sounds like you're confusing the reduced SVFR minima of 3km instead of 10km for vanilla PPL)
A vanilla PPL can file/fly IFR in the UK in F/G airspace (up to "F")
An IMC holder can do so up to Class D. (G/F/E/D) [in the UK]
An IR holder up to Class A. (All classes)
Not sure what you mean about "Class D 3000m"
(Sounds like you're confusing the reduced SVFR minima of 3km instead of 10km for vanilla PPL)
A vanilla PPL can file/fly IFR in the UK in F/G airspace (up to "F")
An IMC holder can do so up to Class D. (G/F/E/D) [in the UK]
An IR holder up to Class A. (All classes)
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: EGJJ
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you are flying at night, an IFR flight plan has to be filed, as there is no VFR at night in UK airspace.
I once had to file an IFR flight plan out of Manchester for a night flight to Jersey, and was given a special VFR clearance out of Manchesters zone and a special VFR entry into Jerseys Zone, the bit in between I was flying VMC but not VFR!! This was in the days when as long as you were not carrying passengers at night you didnt need a night rating either!!! Its a grey area. Most airfields in UK seem to accept VFR fpls any time of day or night but it sometimes takes a bit of explaining to the staff.
I once had to file an IFR flight plan out of Manchester for a night flight to Jersey, and was given a special VFR clearance out of Manchesters zone and a special VFR entry into Jerseys Zone, the bit in between I was flying VMC but not VFR!! This was in the days when as long as you were not carrying passengers at night you didnt need a night rating either!!! Its a grey area. Most airfields in UK seem to accept VFR fpls any time of day or night but it sometimes takes a bit of explaining to the staff.
Not so N, but still FG
Join Date: May 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Irv explains this very well but I don't have my notes of his briefing to hand. If I am flying VFR, I am making certain promises about various things including my horizontal separation from cloud. If I am flying IFR, I am making different promises. As mentioned above, a vanilla PPL in the UK can fly under IFR in uncontrolled airspace. This is useful if barrel rolling around (but not into) small stray clouds. Tinstaafl's post suggests that these things may be different in NZ.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tinstaafl
It's legal for a PPL to fly IFR without at least an IMC or IR? That seems a bit strange.
Yup.
In the UK, on a CAA/JAA PPL, you can file/fly IFR in VMC in Classes F & G.
I suspect this is mainly to get around the situation welkyboy describes - where there is no night VFR in the UK.
You can be a PPL with night rating/qualification (but no instrument rating/IMC) and be legal at night.
It's legal for a PPL to fly IFR without at least an IMC or IR? That seems a bit strange.
Yup.
In the UK, on a CAA/JAA PPL, you can file/fly IFR in VMC in Classes F & G.
I suspect this is mainly to get around the situation welkyboy describes - where there is no night VFR in the UK.
You can be a PPL with night rating/qualification (but no instrument rating/IMC) and be legal at night.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 524
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
with the 3000m thing i was talking about IMC...i think 
I read in the book that I can accept SVFR in Class D with an IMC rating, or something like that.
Another thing. If I file a VFR flight plan, this is telling ATC that I am gona remain VMC all the way? Vice versa, what if I file IFR flightplan and I am actually VMC?
What if I get into IMC conditions whilst flying a VFR flightplan? There is a way also of anticipating changing conditions during flight and putting it in to the flight plan? Seomthing X/Z for VFR to IFR or IFR to VFR ? Thanks in advance, and for all your answers so far.
I read in the book that I can accept SVFR in Class D with an IMC rating, or something like that.Another thing. If I file a VFR flight plan, this is telling ATC that I am gona remain VMC all the way? Vice versa, what if I file IFR flightplan and I am actually VMC?
What if I get into IMC conditions whilst flying a VFR flightplan? There is a way also of anticipating changing conditions during flight and putting it in to the flight plan? Seomthing X/Z for VFR to IFR or IFR to VFR ? Thanks in advance, and for all your answers so far.
Oh. I didn't think about UK 'non' Night VFR.
I'm used to Oz and the US where night VFR is available.
The rules there say only an instrumented rated pilot can file IFR.
Even though I now work in the UK I still find lots of odd UK rules that don't seem to make sense.
How does PPL flying at night OCTA & therefore IFR deal with the - reasonable - expectation that they operate IAW IFR? Condering they won't have studied them, let alone be trained in their application?
Oh. I didn't think about UK 'non' Night VFR.
I'm used to Oz and the US where night VFR is available.
The rules there say only an instrumented rated pilot can file IFR.
Even though I now work in the UK I still find lots of odd UK rules that don't seem to make sense.
How does PPL flying at night OCTA & therefore IFR deal with the - reasonable - expectation that they operate IAW IFR? Condering they won't have studied them, let alone be trained in their application?
It seems to me that the current system has PPLs at night calling themselves IFR but effectively operating VFR at night.
I'm used to Oz and the US where night VFR is available.
The rules there say only an instrumented rated pilot can file IFR.
Even though I now work in the UK I still find lots of odd UK rules that don't seem to make sense.
How does PPL flying at night OCTA & therefore IFR deal with the - reasonable - expectation that they operate IAW IFR? Condering they won't have studied them, let alone be trained in their application?
Oh. I didn't think about UK 'non' Night VFR.
I'm used to Oz and the US where night VFR is available.
The rules there say only an instrumented rated pilot can file IFR.
Even though I now work in the UK I still find lots of odd UK rules that don't seem to make sense.
How does PPL flying at night OCTA & therefore IFR deal with the - reasonable - expectation that they operate IAW IFR? Condering they won't have studied them, let alone be trained in their application?
It seems to me that the current system has PPLs at night calling themselves IFR but effectively operating VFR at night.
PPruNaholic!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Buckinghamshire
Age: 61
Posts: 1,615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OBK! - "rules" such as VFR/IFR is one thing, and "conditions" such as VMC/IMC is another. and the relationship between these is not universally the same in different jurisdictions, hence the surprised responses form anyone not based in the UK whenever the subject of IFR in class G comes up (as it has on this forum many times in the past).
As has been mentioned above, I think you would find Irv Lee very helpful at resolving some of your confusion on this stuff. Irv is a respected instructor and columnist (UK Flyer magazine and elsewhere). He runs fabulous "PPL Masterclass seminars" - see the link here - which I can personally recommend, and which are very good for helping see through the fog of all these confusing and apparently contradictory rules and regulations!
See also his Frequently Asked Questions web page - this includes a section about Class D, SVFR, Night VFR, when non-IR rated UK PPLs might want to fly IFR, and more. for example, I quote from Irv's page:
Hope this helps - and take my advice: try one of Irv's seminars... you'll learn a lot, and have a nice day out (usually uses a pub as the venue, so you'll enjoy a couple of pints too!)
andy
As has been mentioned above, I think you would find Irv Lee very helpful at resolving some of your confusion on this stuff. Irv is a respected instructor and columnist (UK Flyer magazine and elsewhere). He runs fabulous "PPL Masterclass seminars" - see the link here - which I can personally recommend, and which are very good for helping see through the fog of all these confusing and apparently contradictory rules and regulations!
See also his Frequently Asked Questions web page - this includes a section about Class D, SVFR, Night VFR, when non-IR rated UK PPLs might want to fly IFR, and more. for example, I quote from Irv's page:
IFR is probably one of the most misunderstood concepts for UK pilots as the term IFR is used differently in the UK to other countries...
andy
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OBK!
Firstly, 3000m viz does not IMC make
A vanilla PPL can SVFR through class A with 10kms viz. (Heathrow zone is a common route, or the Channel Isles)
PPL with IMC can do so also obviously, but the min viz is reduced to 3km ( =3000m)
It's quite possible that you file IFR but are actually in VMC. One describes the rules you follow (IF-Rules) and one describes the weather (VM-Conditions)
Flight plans Y (Yankee) or Z (Zulu) are the ones where you expect to change RULES during the course of the flight (irrespective of met conditions)
Flight plans filed X (X-ray) are for eXams, and are usually only filed when you're flying your IRT or renewal...
Firstly, 3000m viz does not IMC make
A vanilla PPL can SVFR through class A with 10kms viz. (Heathrow zone is a common route, or the Channel Isles)
PPL with IMC can do so also obviously, but the min viz is reduced to 3km ( =3000m)
It's quite possible that you file IFR but are actually in VMC. One describes the rules you follow (IF-Rules) and one describes the weather (VM-Conditions)
Flight plans Y (Yankee) or Z (Zulu) are the ones where you expect to change RULES during the course of the flight (irrespective of met conditions)
Flight plans filed X (X-ray) are for eXams, and are usually only filed when you're flying your IRT or renewal...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 524
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahh Isee
I could file an IFR flight plan to Le Touqeut on a clear day. This means I have told ATC I am using instruments, but I will be in VMC conditions. Vice versa. I could file a VFR flight plan, meaning I am looking outside, but it could almost be IMC. Therefore could I change fltplan to IFR? I would I have to divert?
I could file an IFR flight plan to Le Touqeut on a clear day. This means I have told ATC I am using instruments, but I will be in VMC conditions. Vice versa. I could file a VFR flight plan, meaning I am looking outside, but it could almost be IMC. Therefore could I change fltplan to IFR? I would I have to divert?
PPruNaholic!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Buckinghamshire
Age: 61
Posts: 1,615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PPruNaholic!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Buckinghamshire
Age: 61
Posts: 1,615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe not until an incident took place, say an MOR or an airprox were filed, or an accident occured and an insurance adjuster and or AAIB investigated and discovered this.
But I think in practice it is possible that ATC might suspect something was not kosher, and then track you back to your home airfield, or call around other ATC units until they find out who you are. For example, I have met someone (who had an lapsed IR at the time) who wasn't paying enough attention and (stupidly!) climbed into Class A on the way out of the UK to the continent. They were working London Information at the time. Pretty soon (minutes) the radar controller concerned got onto London Info, asked if they had some prat at roughly position xxx, and then a message was passed asking him to confirm his position and level - and he was busted.
So, best play by the rules, eh!
Andy
But I think in practice it is possible that ATC might suspect something was not kosher, and then track you back to your home airfield, or call around other ATC units until they find out who you are. For example, I have met someone (who had an lapsed IR at the time) who wasn't paying enough attention and (stupidly!) climbed into Class A on the way out of the UK to the continent. They were working London Information at the time. Pretty soon (minutes) the radar controller concerned got onto London Info, asked if they had some prat at roughly position xxx, and then a message was passed asking him to confirm his position and level - and he was busted.
So, best play by the rules, eh!
Andy
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I could file an IFR flight plan to Le Touqeut on a clear day. This means I have told ATC I am using instruments, but I will be in VMC conditions
IFR/VFR are sets of rules. For example, under IFR, you have to be 1000' above the ground except for departure and arrival. Under VFR, you have to be 1000' vertically/1500m horizontally from any clouds if you're above 3000'.
If you file IFR, you are accepting those rules. You must remain an appropriate height above the ground. But you may get a lot closer to clouds than you can if you are VFR. If your license allows it, you can go right into the clouds, but if you don't have an IR/IMC rating then your license will restrict you to staying clear of clouds even under IFR.
As for "using instruments", ATC don't really care what you use, so long as you can fly and navigate accurately. You can use a VOR to navigate VFR (although it should be backed up by visual navigation if possible). But when in VMC, you must always look out the window, whether you're IFR or VFR. Remember, in Class D, even if you are IFR, ATC will not separate you from VFR traffic - it's your responsibility to keep your eyes open, regardless of flight rules!
Why can't they make these things simple?
FFF
--------------
[Edit] Oops, got carried away with myself there - that wasn't even the reason for me posting! The thing I was originally going to say, before getting side-tracked, was a way of remembering the Y and Z codes. (Not that you need to remember them, you can look them up, but I needed to learn them for the ATPL exams, and this is what we were taught.)
IFR to VFR is Y - remember "IVY"
VFR to IFR is Z - remember "VIZ"
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,006
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aussie Andy,
I totally agree , play by the rules for insurance safety etc. and I would never dream of breaking them.
Its just that whever I file and fly ifr no-one checks to see if you have an IR much less whether it is valid.
I totally agree , play by the rules for insurance safety etc. and I would never dream of breaking them.
Its just that whever I file and fly ifr no-one checks to see if you have an IR much less whether it is valid.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OBK!
Ahh Isee
I could file an IFR flight plan to Le Touqeut on a clear day.
No, you could not.
Based on your original post I have PPL/IMC/Multi but I have never been sure on this... you do not have an IR, so you cannot file/fly IFR outside the UK whatever the Met conditions.
Best you could file/fly would be IFR to the FIR boundary, then VFR to LFAT - but I suspect you already knew that.
Ahh Isee
I could file an IFR flight plan to Le Touqeut on a clear day.
No, you could not.
Based on your original post I have PPL/IMC/Multi but I have never been sure on this... you do not have an IR, so you cannot file/fly IFR outside the UK whatever the Met conditions.
Best you could file/fly would be IFR to the FIR boundary, then VFR to LFAT - but I suspect you already knew that.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just going back to the night time question, in the UK and outside controlled airspace, Rules 29 and 30 apply. If you distill these rules down, they say if you fly below 3000 ft, stay clear of cloud and in sight of the surface, then you are complying with the IFR. And that's how lots of flights are conducted visually at night in the UK.
To be fair, it gets a bit more complex inside controlled airspace - but mainly for the controller!
To be fair, it gets a bit more complex inside controlled airspace - but mainly for the controller!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about the channel islands then? Normally I'll file IFR, and submit an IFR flight plan, as everyone I have talked to recommends. However as mentioned in this post, SVFR minima for IMC holder is 3000m. Now entering the Channel Islands CTR you are permitted into the class A on a SVFR clearance. So what happens if you are in IMC? You are prohibited from entering the zone under SVFR as you're in IMC on an IFR flight plan, but your rating [IMC] prohibits IFR flight in Class A airspace.....?
Cheers
EA
Cheers
EA