Seething Formation Photo's!

[Aussie Andy]

On Saturday, myself and my good friend Adrian (aka 1013.25) took up formationfoto's offer to drag the trusty Piper Dakota G-ODAK over to the lovely Seething airfield, south-east of Norwich, for some air-to-air photos...

It was a magnificent experience! Just getting there was a treat - those that were out and about Saturday morning will know it was a bit windy! But the turbulence wasn't so bad and we had a pleasant flight with incredible visibility (for once!) from Wycombe via overhead Luton (after approx. six orbits holding short about 1/2 mile waiting for the landing Easyjets and watching them enjoy the x-wind!). And Adrian made a most entertaining and successful landing at Seething, given the conditions ;)

The photo session itself involved taking off after the camera ship (which had two other members of the Seething Photo Group aboard), and catching it up. then we went up above the clouds (makes a nicer background I'm told!) and into close formation. I have no previous experience of this, so formationfoto sitting alongside me in the r.h. seat handled our aircraft for the formation work. If you've never had the chance to experience this, then I'd recommend you do! The trip to Seething is worth it for this alone!

So plenty of photos were taken at various levels, and in turns, etc. And then it was time for us to return to Seething - and now my turn to make an "interesting" x-wind landing for the entertainment of all on board! :)

We were then presented with our complimentary photo-CD - which was ready before we departed for home via a stop at Cambdridge (which was nice too!).

I've put some of the photos on the web. Please note that these images are provided courtesy of and Copyright Seething photo team / PILOT Archive. HERE (http://community.webshots.com/user/andyhardyuk)

[Aussie Andy]

And here are some of my favourites:

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~ajhardy/flying/godak1.jpg

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~ajhardy/flying/godak2.jpg

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~ajhardy/flying/godak3.jpg

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~ajhardy/flying/godak4.jpg

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~ajhardy/flying/godak5.jpg

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~ajhardy/flying/godak6.jpg


... and this photo taken by my friend Suzanne after landing at Cambridge on the way home... I think I might have been trying to explain something about cross-wind landings!? ;)

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~ajhardy/flying/godak7.jpg

[knobbygb]

Looks like great fun. As a bit of a keen photographer I'd love to do somthing like that one day, but need to practice the basic flying skills a bit more first.

Formationfoto, any technical reason why all the shots are taken from the starboard side of the object a/c? I would have thought you could get a bit more variety by moving over to the other side for a bit. Is it to make sure you get your own photogenic mugshot on each one? ;) :p And just out of interest what camera kit/lenses do you use? I assume it's a digital SLR.

[formationfoto]

Normally we would put up two pilot / photographers so that we can get shots both sides but this wasn't possible on Saturday (we had two pilots but only one photogtrapher). Preference is to get some variety of shots using both sides - also means I am not grinning out of every photograph (although my collection of grins from different airframes is growing nicely!).

Kit is variously Canon D60 or Nikon D1X (in this case the Nikon). Both are extremely good digital SLRs. Selection of canon and Sigma lenses (in this case mostly a 28 - 70 zoom).

The tail of the C150 camera ship in the second shot on Andys faves has been airbrushed out in my version now.

[TheKentishFledgling]

Nice pics!

If you're interested, there are some more of formationfoto's photos here (http://www.eludlow.flyer.co.uk/atakz/) (the last 13 on that page!). The aeroplane is stiknruda's Pitts.

tKF

[Evo]

Looks like a fun day out, and great pictures, formationfoto - well done. :)

[Aussie Andy]

The tail of the C150 camera ship in the second shot on Andys faves has been airbrushed out in my version now.But I like seeing the tail in the shot - just goes to show we really were flying formation ;)

Thanks again ff,

[DamienB]

Normally we would put up two pilot / photographers so that we can get shots both sides but this wasn't possible on Saturday (we had two pilots but only one photogtrapher).

I hereby volunteer for backup photog position :D

[formationfoto]

Damian B - offer noted!
Actually we are keen to use a known team who work together closely for improved safety and speed so there isn't much opportunity to involve others. It can be quite interesting for pax in the target / subject aircraft though.

Anyone in East Anglia wanting to join in with the team (on the photographic rather than the formation flying side) with excellent flying skills and a good photographic eye I am always happy to talk to but not only is there no payment you have to pay your own flying costs - all for the fun of taking pictures and possibly getting them published (again without payment) in an aviation magazine.

[RotorHorn]

FF, any chance you could offer some simple pointers on formatoin flying?

I colleague has asked if I'll go flying with him and a few others to take some air-to-air photos of him whilst he's airborne. (I'll be in a R44 - don't think a R22 could keep up - and he's in a Warrior - whatever one of those is ;) ).

Any suggestions as to who does what?

Does the target ship flight S&L, and the camera ship move around him? How do you communicate if only one radio on board?

Its a potentially dangerous situation and I just want us to be going into this with our eyes open...

[jumpseater]

How do you ensure you dont get a reflection from the canopy of the aircraft you're in, in the shot? Can you use a polarising filter without getting the 'rainbow effect' showing?

[Aussie Andy]

RotorHorn Regarding formation flying: formationfoto is the expert, but my point-of-view is that this is not to be attempted unless proper training has been undertaken! I was amazed just sitting next to ff (he in r.h. seat) while he did it and am in no doubt that training is required to do this! To answer your question, the camera ship stays ahead and generally straight/level, and the target aircraft (with ff in it!) "formates" by coming alongside and slightly below. ff mentioned to me that he knows of somewhere that offers training for formation flying - perhaps he could mention here?

jumpseater - To avoid canopy reflectionsthe guy with the camera had his window open and hi head and camera out of the aircraft!

[LowNSlow]

Nice pics chaps and I will take up your offer of a photo session with the Auster one day ff :D

Andy, the BA colour scheme really suits the Dakota. Very neat.

[Aussie Andy]

LowNSlow I agree - I always feel very proud, in any of the BAFC (http://www.bafc.co.uk) aircraft as they look so great, and are maintained very well too!

Its fun to pull up outside a commercial terminal - e.g. Southend - where "real" BA flights are expected, you can see the worried expressions on waiting pax faces thinking "God, we're not going in that little thing are we!?" ;)

This even happened to us in Tours earlier this year where, while grabbing a bite to eat in the terminal, I overheard people saying "Glad we're going with Ryanair (or was it Easyjet?) as I don't fancy going back on BA as their aircraft are awfully tiny!!!" ;)

[formationfoto]

AA has answered a couple of the questions. I know this sounds a bit arrogant but I have a lot of practice at both standard formation flying and the slightly different skill required to try and position the target aircraft whilst thinking from the perspective and viewpoint of the cameraship. I think it would irresponsible of me to suggest it is easy or to entice others to try it by offering tips but if you can get some training it is good fun. There is a formation school held at North Weald for warbrid flyers a couple of times a year I think. Also there may be some training at Leicester as there is a Cessna formation team based at the flying club there who are extremely good given the machines they have to play with - I think the team leader participates in this forum.

After safety my two objectives are:
to get the aircraft into a position which shows it off well taking into account the light on the day, the available background, the shape, and the colour
to create as much variety as possible in position, action, and background.

I have shot from R22 and flown R22 for shooting from fixed wing. Rather a different proposition as my rotary formation skills are not as well honed. For me at least close formation was not an option as the position of the disc is less easy to judge than the relative position of wing and tailplane for instance.

I would always choose an opening window over a fixed perspex window for clarity of shot. If no option then internal reflections can be avoided by using a rubber lens hood or some other mechanism for keeping the internal light from reflecting on the perspex. Resting the lens on the aircraft is not a great idea as the vibration tends to soften the shot at the typical shutter speeds of 250th.

Lots of don'ts and 'musts'.
Don't formate unless you have been coached.
Don't formate until you are comfortable with the handling of the aircraft - and you understand the peformance and limitations of the other aircraft.
Don't formate with someone whos ability you are uncertain of.
Don't assume that anyone without experience can lead - you need someone who understands the implications of their actions.
Don't lose sight of the other aircraft unless you know that they are nowhere near.
Always agree the sortie
Always have an escape route
Always agree method of communication and if this fails abort
Don't continue if you are uncertain.
Don't don't don't try taking pictures (particularly in formation - either lose or close - at the same time as flying the aircraft.

Plenty more where they came from but hopefully enough to suggest that this is not an activity to be taken lightly despite the temptation to do so from the comments on this thread about how much fun it is.

If this sounds negative - it is meant to be. Better to be alive to have fun than killing yourself before the fun begins.

[FormationFlyer]

formationfoto - damn good advice m8.

I believe the cessna team (Foxtrot Formation Display team) you are talking about is actually based at Coventry (Coventry Flying School) and whilst the team leader doesnt frequent the forums the No 6 does :D

Best place for non-warbird formation training that I know of is on-track aviation: http://www.ontrackaviation.com

BTW..nice piccies!!!

Hope this helps,
FF

[formationfoto]

FF
well it is all the midlands isn't it!
Apologies slight loss of faculties, indeed I meant coventry and damned good team they / you are too.

All for making it clear that formation (with instruction) isn't just for those with access or funds to play with Harvard or Yak.

[Aerohack]

Maybe it's my deteriorating eyesight after 35 years of peering through Nikon viewfinders at aeroplanes, but not one of those Dakota pictures looks critically sharp to me. Maybe they're just low-rez versions of the originals?

[Aussie Andy]

Aerohack: Be fair mate! Last Saturday was pretty bl**dy windy! There was a fair bit of rough air to deal with... you try it! ;)

[Aerohack]

Well, AussieAndy, I have tried it. Indeed, I have been photographing aircraft professionally for the past 35 years, and I know only too well how difficult (and potentially dangerous) air-to-air sessions can be even in the most benign conditions. Nonetheless, unsharp photos go in my bin, whatever the reason.

[Aussie Andy]

Well you can't put these in your bin can you!? No-one's asking you to publish them... sheesh! :rolleyes:

The point is it was a fun days flying... get over yourself mate!

[Aerohack]

Hey, I wasn't rubbishing these pictures and no offence intended. My enquiry was genuine. They look slightly 'soft' on my screen, and I just wondered if they'd been degraded by posting on the web. I'm delighted you had a good time and have some memorable pictures of the occasion. As I said, it's never as easy as those who haven't tried it imagine. Sometimes, coming with anything from an air-to-air sortie is an achievement in itself. The session I remember best was one on which, despite very careful briefing about our rendezvous point, we never saw the target aircraft again until it landed back.

[Aussie Andy]

None taken....

The photos here (and at http://www.users.waitrose.com/~ajhardy/flying/) are low-res renditions of the orginal hi-res images.

To see the high res images, go to http://community.webshots.com/user/andyhardyuk - these are also low-res, buit each image has a link below it to the original hi-res version, e.g. http://community.webshots.com/storage/1/v4/1/21/2/53612102LgWOPN_fs.jpg

Cheers :)

[Aerohack]

Andy, you've confirmed what I suspected, that the low-rez images just take some of the sharpness off, but it's certainly there on the high-rez files. Incidentally, that abortive sortie I mentioned began (and ended with not a frame shot) at BAFC's base at Booker, but it was so long ago that I think it was still called Airways Aero Association then!
Jumpseater:Jumpseater: another useful tip for avoiding reflections if you have to shoot through a canopy or window is to avoid wearing a light coloured shirt or jacket - definitely not the occasion for proving your washing powder's whiter-than-white capability. A piece of black cloth draped around you, in the fashion of Victorian studio photographers, can also be a help. Tinted windows, on the other hand, are no help at all...

[Aussie Andy]

The invoices still say "Airways Aero Association"!

[Aerohack]

H'm. Maybe they'll go all retro one of these days and paint one of the current fleet in the quasi-BOAC colours that the AAA Chipmunks and Austers used to wear...

[formationfoto]

Aerohack
The guys involved in this don't claim to be pro photographers just enthusiasts for both flying and photography.

I know there are vary able pros out there who get ace shots all the time and this team are not pretending to be anywhere near as good as them. If only we could achieve results similar to that Spitfire cover!

As long as Aussie Andy doesn't want to put them in the bin then objective of the exercise is achieved.

Not being defensive for me but the other guys put in a lot of effort at their own cost and I get a bit protective about their efforts being knocked (even if only gently!). Some of the pics they have done are certainly sub standard to those you and your fellow pros deliver but then a slightly soft air to air shot of an aircraft is probably better then none at all for most of the guys we have given complimentary CDs to.

The dark jacket advice is very sound. I have seen people wearing high vis vests trying to take a picture through glass / perspex! it certianly demonstrates the ability of the vest to be seen!.

[Aerohack]

formationfoto Truth is, Ian, even the best pros don't get ace shots all the time — they cleverly just don't show you the duff ones! Perhaps only the likes of the late Charles E Brown made every shot pay off, but then he was working with one-shot-at-a-time large-format cameras and often had the luxury of cruising around for as long as it took to find that perfect cloudscape. Not so easy when you've got 15 minutes hanging out of the door of a 172 on a dull February day (bin there, dun that, many times, and didn't get ace shots!). High-rez shots of the Dakota to which Andy directed me show none of that softness, which was obviously the result of compressing for the website.

[formationfoto]

The secret is out......
You get good shots by throwing the bad ones away! - Mike thanks I feel a bit better about the guys attempts now. Hanging out of a 172 with the wind blowing around and some idiot trying to get you to lean right out is certainly character forming - why do you think I try and sit in the subject a/c?.

I'm just off to do some throwing out.

[Aerohack]

In my youth (or at least when I was a lot younger and even more foolish) I used to ride sideways, legs out, in a doorless 172 with just a lapstrap, to shoot offshore powerboats. Stopped that after the occasion when a LASA 60 just ahead suddenly plopped into the sea after an engine failure. Got my attention very quickly, that!

[jumpseater]

Good tip re the dark clothing and not wearing hi-vis! the simple things are sometimes those easiest to miss!, I asked the question as only having done air to ground with the door off (R22), I was looking for the easy/top tip answer!, thanks!.

And yep youre only as good as the last picture you took!, so my file 13in is frequently full, and Mrs js asking why are you throwing these out?, if I get as many as 25% 'merchantable quality' per film I'm happy, and I'm not even a pro snapper!

[EastMids]

Aerhack / all,

Reference the slightly soft photos... I agree. However, be aware that the Canon D60, whilst being an excellent digital SLR, does produce slightly soft images out of the camera - trust me, I know! This is not a problem, but rather it is just how most DSLRs work. Five minutes of careful work with Photoshop will have most Canon D60 images that on first look appear soft looking stunning. My immediate reaction to several of those images before I even saw the remarks about them being slightly soft was that they could do with a bit of careful unsharp mask work in Photoshop.

What doesn't help is that the low res versions show some signs of jpeg compression (saved at lower than maximum quality, presumably to reduce file sizes and transmission times) and this can also lead to a small loss in clarity.

Nice photos... I suspect that many if not all of them could be nipped and tucked a bit with just a small amount of effort and no one would make any adverse comment whatsoever about them.

Andy

[formationfoto]

Eastmids
Not sure what processing AusAnd did with the pics before posting them here. He was given the CD of the download straight from the camera whereas before they go into our archive they recieve some very basic tidying up in photoshop / paintshop pro. Before use on the web or in the mag they receive further photoshop work. The camera is used in best JPEG mode rather than raw for most of the work unless we are trying to create a potential cover or full page shot. these were in fact taken with the D1X rather than the D60. The other photographetr on the team uses the D60. I think my preference (partly because it is cheaper) is the D60 - it produces slightly better pics I think - but subjective.

[Aerohack]

Jumpseater: Do reassure Mrs JS that 25% merchantable quality is a pretty good batting average, and does not reflect (no high-viz pun intended there!) on your ability as a photographer. When shooting subjects that can't be closely controlled as they can in a studio set-up, most pros tend to 'shotgun' and pick out the best later. Film is still the cheapest element in photography, and especially so with air-to-air where you have a couple of expensive aeroplanes poling around. I can tell you from personal acquaintance that some of the most talented aviation photographers, whose work is used by the major general aviation manufacturers, will happily run off 40 or more rolls of Kodachrome on a single air-to-air shoot. It has nothing to do with lack of technical ability, simply good insurance when you look at the cost of launching, say, a Citation and a B-25 camera ship for several hours. Formationfoto: quite brave of your team to burn CDs straight off the camera without any editing! 30-odd years ago when I was seeking freelance work in Fleet Street I was quite dismayed when the picture editor of a now long-defunct national tabloid skimmed quickly through my portfolio of immaculately printed, carefully retouched 15 X 12s, but spent a long time poring over my contact sheets. He was looking to see how my mind and eye had been working behind the viewfinder, not how clever I'd been in the darkroom afterwards.

[Aussie Andy]

What a palaver (http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=palaver) ! ;)

It seems these images inspire more photographical than aeronautical discussion! No, I know thats not fair as we discussed the formation flying part as well, but as a "point-and-click" photographer, I guess I just can't keep up with the ins-and-outs of the photographical debate this has become! :D

But seeing as you asked, the original large format pictures were just stuck into webshots.com (so my family at home in Australia can see them) and it automatically (and probably not very carefully!) shrinks them to more easily web-viewable size.

Now, can we get back to flying!? (just kidding) ;)

[stiknruda]

Sunday 3/11 mid afternoon - just finishing off a bit of welding and thinking of going flying when the sound of multiple aero-engines caused me to wander outside.

There was a 3 ship stonking overhead at circa 800' - formation lead was a yellow smoke equipped tailwheel (Extra) - I recognised the Mooney but didn't know what the white bird was.

So because the smoke went on as you saw me, I guess that was you FF? I pushed the Pitts out but by the time I was airborne you'd all £*cked off!:(

Practiced multiple rolls and hesitation rolls until it became too dark to carry on safely!

Will bring the Pushpak over for some photos v soon.:D

Stik

[formationfoto]

Stik
You will have to be quicker next time!
The Extra was Denny on the way back to Little Staughton after flying some competition winners at Seething. The Mooney was Brian and the other a/c was an Arrow which arrived with Denny. Also in the group (but not in the formation) was a Jet Ranger. Sadly I was on the ground but was flying the 172 target a/c for photos earlier in the morning. By the way Denny is looking for an S2B for a future formation act - aware of any?.

AusAnd
Aviation bores are tedious, photo bores even more so, aviation photo bores the worst of the lot. Sadly I think that means I need to get a life quickly before I bore myself to death!