Flat landings/PPL examiners

[Thumpango]

I would appreciate any tips you may have to finally sort out my landings!..... and I also have a question about examiners.

I have a tendency to land slightly flat and I think this is because in my early stages I did balloon quite a lot and this makes me very cautious in bringing the column back. I always land on the back wheels but I don't always achieve the correct pitch up.
I flare in the right place and right height and can hold off but when can I confidently bring the column back and acheive the right pitch without fear that the plane will climb.

Please let me know what your technique is?

When I eventually get this cracked and the rest of the course(!)
I will take the GFT. Who will the examiner be. The CFI at my Flying school is an examiner, will she do it? Are all CFI's examiners?

Fairly basic stuff I am afraid, but your comments would be very welcome.

[AerBabe]

What aircraft are you learning in? And are you leaving some power on for the landing?

If your CFI hasn't flown with you in the last ... is it 10 hours? ... then she will do the test with you. Don't think all CFIs are examiners. Seems I raised more questions than I answered :o

[AfricanEagle]

When you are holding off (no power on) try bringing the column back when you start to feel the plane sink: major the sink, more you bring back the column.

Ciao

[slim_slag]

Not all instructors are examiners, in fact very few are. There are totally different requirements for the two.

Sounds like you are doing fine with your landings, practice makes perfect. Nail your approach speed and keep your eyes on the far end of the runway.

[BlueLine]

Flat landings are usually the result of an approach that is either too flat, too fast or a combination of the two. Sometimes, using less than land flap may be too blame. You should really get this sorted with an instructor as a matter of urgency. Flat landings lead to landing accidents!

You may take your test with any examiner you wish; usually clubs have their own examiner(s) that they like to use but, you are not compelled to use them. There are no specific qualifications for a CFI, its just a title, some are examiners, many are not.

[HelenD]

I still land a little flat in the PA28 but this is possibly due to the fact it is a heavyish aircraft for me, I do however get the odd landing that isnt that flat so i know i can do it. I was landing flat initially in the PA38 as well but with work I started flareing though as it is a lighter aircraft I have a tendancy to balloon.
I am begining to wonder if I will ever get solo in the PA28.

As for examiners not all CFI's are examiners and whether you will be examined by yours depends on how much flying you have done with them and how recently. Dont worry about examiners they are human and those I have come in contact with are very nice.

[Thumpango]

Thank you all for your comments, these have been very helpful and exactly what I was after.

I fly a PA28 and I find it just wants to keep on going, it seems quite happy to float along the runway for what seems an eternity!

I guess I might be trying to touchdown too soon.
My next lesson is this Monday and what I have picked up from these postings is to continue the holdoff as long as possible and pitch up when I detect the 'second' sink.
Bleeding the speed off takes much longer than I originally thought even with 75knts and power off over the numbers.

And if a slight balloon occurs, would you add a little power to rectify the situation and flare again? or abort and go around. Depends on runway length most likely.

As for Examiners, I am surprised that an examining CFI can test students from his/her own school, although from the students point of view this must be good I would have thought!

[andrewc]

Don't you want to be looking at 70 knots over the
numbers for a PA-28, the extra 5 knots is what is keeping
you floating,

-- Andrew

[Keef]

PA28s will float until you get them down to the right speed! It's all a matter of practice (repeat ad lib) until you know the right power settings, speeds, etc. If you approach fast, you WILL float for a long time.

Get the speed right for the version you're flying, and you can grease it on, nose high, with no bother, at the place on the runway YOU choose. My instructor would tell me which runway stripe to land on - and expect me to do that, every time. In the end, I learned to do that.

If it balloons, and until you're comfortable with the aircraft, go around and sort it out next time. The alternative could prove expensive.

[Tinker]

Lots of good advice already as far as I am concerned but to add to it get the trim spot on. In my opinion it can be quite hard to get balls on perfect but my guess is your best landings are when you could technicaly fly your final aproach hands off. The height judgement comes down to experience but flaring from a well trimmed approach is easy, it's the inital stage is the hard bit.
But in any case a flat landing beats bouncing down the runway or floating to the point where the runway gets unnervingly short. :D

[slim_slag]

Couple of figures have been thrown out for approach speed in a Warrior. I think they are still too high, though if that's what you want to do then go for it.

In the perfect warrior landing, you stall a few inches above the ground. Therefore, the speed you should be crossing the threshold is a factor of stall speed in the configuration you are in. So a flapless landing is going to be faster than a full flap landing. Likewise, if you are heavy you will need to be faster over the threshold than if you are light.

You can calculate the speed when crossing the threshold using a simple rule, I use 1.3 times stall speed in that configuration. So find out Vs1 and Vs0, and work it out yourself. Comes in a lot less than even 70 knots.

Fix your fast approach, you will find it so much easier to fix your float.

thumpango

Here you go, this explains it far better than I ever could.

Landing (http://www.monmouth.com/~jsd/how/htm/landing.html)

Landing a plane is one of the few (IMO) totally unintuitive things in flying you have to master. You need to get the physics right first, then practice repeatedly until you get your sight picture worked out. It will come - but really make sure you nail your approach speed.

[Final 3 Greens]

Thumpango

In calm air I use 65kias/full flap short final on a PA28-181 (Archer) at gross - the "book" says 63, but the ASI ain't calibrated that finely! Gusting day or tricky x-wind I'll add 5kias, but no more.

The "warrior" wing is relatively efficient and will trade energy (i.e. airspeed) into distance, thus floating halfway down the runway.

Also, you are in ground effect from about 15 feet up (half the wingspan which is 35ft on a Warrior), so this aids and abets the floating.

Are you using full flap or flap 25 for landing? My flight school used 25 as standard doctrine, but I have always found full flaps to make for easier landings - less float, less apparent flare required due to the pitch down effect of full flaps and more drag ... although PA28 flaps are not as effective as say Cessna 15x/17x in this respect.

When I was s student going through the same feeligns that you are now, an experienced pilot told me to try not to land, i.e. keep the aeroplane flying in the flare as long as poss - this always helped me.

Obviously you need to be at the right height above the runway - 2-3 feet and then the a/c will gently sink on when ready.

Also, don't forget to transfer your focus to the end of the runway no later than just before crossing the threshold.

As other posters have said, just keep going everythign will be fine.

There used to be a lovely sign in a flying club ...... Learn to fly £100, learn to land £3500!

[QDMQDMQDM]

In my limited flying experience, it's definitely approach and over the hedge speed which dictates the quality or otherwise of the landing. Carrying just a bit too much speed increases the float exponentially. Conversely, you need to be very ready with a good dollop of power if coming in slow with full flaps and you hit a bit of sink or get a bit low.

Overall, I'd say one is more likely to crack up in the long-term by tending to carry more airspeed ('for safety's sake') than practicing coming in a bit slower. You may well find it is approach speed which is the problem.

QDM

[BEagle]

After a couple of expensive wheelbarrow incidents, we did a thorough review of approach and landing techniques in the PA28 Cherokee and Warrior II.

First the normal powered approach technique. After rolling out of the fianl turn, select FULL flap, adjust the pitch attitude and TRIM to the approach speed. Then aim precisely at the touchdown spot and 'point-and-power' all the way to the flare.

Now the speeds:

Cherokee 140C: Normal 70 mph, Flapless 75 mph, Glide 85 mph reducing to not less than 75 mph once full flap has been selected.

Warrior II: Normal 65 kts, Flapless 70 kts, Glide 75 kts reducing to not less than 70 kts once full flap has been selected.

These are MAX AUW APPROACH speeds derived from the POH, not 'Threshold' speeds. They are maintained all the way down to the flare, whereupon you stop looking at the IAS and concentrate on the landing. DO NOT add 5 kts for 3 people or more or add anything extra for strong winds, otherwise the ac will float - which you do NOT want to happen in a stiff crosswind.

Since adopting these new, lower speeds we have had no more landing problems. The guidance used to be to use the speeds as threshold speeds and to fly 10 kts/mph higher on the approach. It had also been recommended to add 1/3 of the wind above 15 kts and another 5 kts/mph if there were 3 or more on board. This just led to people trying to flare at 80-85, ballooning, bouncing and trying to contain an out of trim force as they tried to land - then running out of strength/patience and pitching the ac onto its nosewheel. It was utter bo££ocks resulting from heavy/jet aircraft techniques being applied incorrectly to light SEP aircraft.

[knobbygb]

I'm not as experienced as many (most) on here, but I must say I agree with the last few posters. The thing that really did it for me when learning to land was trying not to land the aircraft - as F3G says, i.e. the yoke should be right back in your chest with the stall warner blaring before anything touches the ground.

I did my first ever nosewheel-first landing the other day and the reason was that I didn't fly a stabilised approach - too high, then a little low and fast and most importantly, too fast over the threashold. It always amazes me just how slow the warrior can fly before stalling.

As others have said, full flap is a huge help - it provides loads of drag and not much extra lift. It's really noticable just how long the speed takes to bleed off with only 25 degrees. Obviously we practice without, but I don't see why full 40 deg flap shouldn't be standard.

[englishal]

In addition to what the other learned people have advised....

You could try trimming slightly nose up on the approach. By this I mean so you need a bit of forward force on the control column to maintain the glide path, this will help you in the flare. Once you have mastered the art of flaring, then you can remove this nose up trim....

Its a technique often advised for bigger aircraft (eg a multi), where when you chop the power, becasue of the big airbrakes on the wing (props), the nose tends to drop...

Good luck !

EA;)

[Thumpango]

Many thanks to you all for your contribution to help my landings.
There is now more comprehensive information on landing in this thread than I have seen in any textbook or been taught!.
I hope this also helps others who are fine tuning their landing proceedure.

Having read all your posts I now recognise that my problems are:

1) Speed too high over the threshold

I stabilise the approach speed at 75knts with full flap (flying school requires this). I do find that trimming to a very slight forward pressure does help when it comes to the flare as the column naturally wants to go in the direction I should be moving it in.
I have been closing the throttle as I come over the numbers, I think I will try trickling the throttle off slightly earlier.

2) Not fully completing the flare

Earlier balloning experiences have made me reluctant to pull back. I now appreciate that I need to keep increasing that angle of attack gently as I detect sink.

Wow, I don't have any excuse for messing up in the lesson tomorrow! I will let you know how this works out

Slim_Slag: thank you for the Landing doc !






:)

[BEagle]

Thumpango, why on Earth does your flying school require you to fly so fast on the approach? Tell them to re-examine the Pilot Operating Handbook for the Warrior.

If you fly too fast on the approach, you will have difficulty in landing because the aeroplane will be out of trim. You have to manage that out of trim force, as well as finessing the flare - and that is MUCH more difficult if the approach speed was excessive.

Your comments about pre-loading the control column thus 'allowing the column to move in the direction you should be moving it in the flare' are indicative of developing a personal technique to cope with flying the ac far too fast on the approach. Perhaps you should go elsewhere to a school which teaches you to fly aeroplanes as the designer intended?

No wonder you're having difficulty in learning to land the aeroplane! Not your fault - it's definitely theirs!!

[slim_slag]

I stabilise the approach speed at 75knts with full flap (flying school requires this).

As BEagle says, this is nuts.

I have been closing the throttle as I come over the numbers, I think I will try trickling the throttle off slightly earlier.

When you get round to flying proper planes :) you will go to idle abeam the numbers. Even in spam cans I always close the throttle when the landing is assured, which can be anywhere really, but that is considered an old-fashioned technique in these new and interesting times :) Your flying school really likes you to come in fast, it really is a very bad habit.

Yeh BEagle, you are right in that all these additions/subtractions to approach speed are unnecessary. If it's not gusty I just say 63 knots with full flaps - but it's noticeable how just an extra person can affect the flare. As for when you measure the speed, I use the threshold because that is when I last look at the panel. I have no idea what speed I am doing after that, my eyes are definitely outside. In fact, I might not look at the panel at all, pitch attitude tells the story. Sounds like your place has the right idea though.

If you really want to be an accomplished lander, master a taildragger beast.

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Thumpango

Little to add to what has already been said, except to say that absolutely the best way I know of consistently landing a Warrior properly is to have some lessons in a taildragger until you can consistently land one of those properly!

I didn't realise quite how mediocre my landings could be until my first bounces in a taildragger....:rolleyes:

[Thumpango]

BEagle and Slim_Slag,

thank you for this. I will question why so high a speed on approach with my school, this is what I have been taught from the start for the Warrior, along with climb at 80, cruise at 100, decend base at 80.

You are all in agreement that 75knts is higher than you would expect.

Umm, got me wondering now.

HelenD- what approach speed do you use? (adjacent school!)

[HelenD]

I use the same approach speeds as you Thumpandgo though on base we get to 75 kts and trim but I dont think the speeds I use is causing my problems. I have trouble pulling back gradually in the flare and this is possibly due to lack of strength. Before I managed to keep my airspeed at 75kts it somtimes dropped to 70 kts and the instructor reminded me about airspeed. As for the POH after a conversation I had post reading it I will never go near the book again.

[Thumpango]

Thank you Helen,

well that IS interesting, you use 75knts as well.

Maybe it is so there is no way we will ever get near the stall on finals if we are a bit slack in maintaining the speed.

It's certainly not helping us on the landing though, that's for sure, as witnessed by the comments above.

[slim_slag]

Helen

I have trouble pulling back gradually in the flare and this is possibly due to lack of strength.

If you trimmed for 63 knots on long final and set up for your stabilised approach, this would not be such a problem. If you trim on base, for 75 knots, and do not retrim, then you will definitely be fighting the trim tab as you described. Nothing to do with strength, there are plenty of weak people landing warriors perfectly.

Although I have never actually looked, I suspect you are flying at around 40-45kts IAS when you actually properly land a warrior. Thats a lot of force against the trim if the plane is set for 75knts IAS. (IAS not too accurate at high AOA of course) You should be in trim all the way down final. In some planes, light twins for instance, you may even be trimming in the roundout.

Wait until you fly something like a 182, if you are not trimmed properly on final in one of those, you will really be fighting to pull back in the flare. Learn how to fly properly and you will not have to relearn bad habits.

I never learned how to land properly until I flew a supercub. Even now I still screw it up.

Maybe it is so there is no way we will ever get near the stall on finals if we are a bit slack in maintaining the speed.

Well if that is the reason, it's a very bad one.

[BlueLine]

Most landing accidents are caused by landing too fast. The approach speed is 33% above the stall speed, so there is no need to add more. To do so increases your risk of a landing accident! A CAA examiner will expect you to land at the speed indicated in the aircraft manual. I would expect:

For a PA 28-140 - 70 mph with Full Flap

For a PA28-161/180 - 65 Kts with Full Flap

[Evo7]

I will question why so high a speed on approach with my school, this is what I have been taught from the start for the Warrior, along with climb at 80, cruise at 100, decend base at 80.


Climb is 1kt above Vy (best rate of climb) for the PA-28-161, which is what I've been taught. However, I trim for 70kts on base and keep that until I cross the threshold, at which point I ease back to 65kts for the flare. Works well for me. If I get it wrong and arrive at 70kts it floats like mad - 5 more on top of that cannot help at all. Maybe they think you can get away with it when you've got 1700m of runway to play with :)

When I was first briefed about landing the beast I was told that a stabilized 65kts on final was 'ideal' but they factor in a 5kt safety factor to account for the inability of students to get speed right (and I'm as guilty as any there) - better to come over the hedge a bit fast than stall it on short final.

[BEagle]

If you learn the 'point-and-power' technique, you will be scanning your speed constantly throughout the approach until you begin the flare. Continuous and prompt attention to touchdown point and appraoch speed are the keys to success - and it's SO easy to teach and for the student to learn.

I will NOT allow any student to solo until they can fly an accurate approach speed at the POH speeds - as stated above. No need to 'factor in 5 kts' - that's just acceptance of poor standards.

As a fellow UK Flight Examiner, I concur with BlueLine.

[Thumpango]

Ok, well I have a problem here.

My CFI (CAA Examiner) insists on nailing 75knts final approach.
PA28-161 Warrior

I shall question this tomorrow when I go for my lesson, but whatever the reason, it is not making good landings easy.

Both schools at EGHI teach this approach speed, are any of the instructors reading this thread?:confused:

[Thumpango]

Seems to have all gone quiet, was it something I said?

[englishal]

My CFI (CAA Examiner) insists on nailing 75knts final approach.

Every UK instructor I have flown with insists on 75kts approach speed too.

Anyway, doesn't make much difference, its what you do with it at the end that counts. When or if you progress to instruments, you'll fly the ILS at 100kts or (possibly 90 depending) with one stage of flap, pop out at minimums, wack in all the flap and touch down just as nicely.

Cheers
EA:)

[FlyingForFun]

Thumpango,

I hope all the good advice here helps your landings today! I think it's great that you're so aware of what's going on so early on. Many instructors I've spoken to have told me that they never really understood how to land an aeroplane until they did their CPL - as long as you can land safely, you'll pass your skills test. But accident statistics seem to show that if "safely" includes not wrecking your nose-gear, then it's important to learn to flare properly!

Personally, I didn't learn to flare until I did a tail-dragger check-out. You'd better flare properly in a tail-dragger if you're doing a 3-point landing, or else you'll be going straight back up into the air after the main wheels touch, far worse than any bounce you've experienced in a tricycle! If you really want to learn to fly properly, get yourself a few lessons in something with a tail-wheel - the skills you'll learn will transfer straight back onto the Warrior, and your landings will be so much better you'll wonder how you managed before!

Apart from that, though, just follow the advice on this thread, and you'll be fine. It takes a while to learn when to pull the yoke back, and how fast. Stick with it. Keep being critical of your landings, but not so critical you ruin the enjoyment, and you'll get there soon! :)

FFF
----------------

[knobbygb]

Thump, have you tried posting on the instructors forum? Get them to have a look at this thread. You'll probably not get a concensus, but it'll be interesting.

Let us know how todays lesson goes. I'd be interested to know why they insist on the higher speed. As you say, I assume it's a 'safety factor' but I also agree that this is the wrong way to teach - I've always been pushed to get every part of the flight correct from the first time and this method seems to work, for me at least. I do agree that a float is better than a stall on short final, but why accept either?

[Thumpango]

Well, bit disappointing today, lesson cancelled due to xwind gusting 17knts!

Anyway, I have rebooked the lesson for tomorrow- watch this space, I can't wait! I know exactly what I am going to try this time thanks to the answers on this thread. I will also take up FFF's suggestion and put a link on the Instructors forum (thank you).

Beagle, if you read this can you drop me an email please?

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

The CFI at my flying club told me 70kts (PA28-161) when solo. I kept finding that I was floating a long way before touchdown (not good on a relatively short runway!). One of the other instructors said I should try 65kts; it worked a treat.
However, I was flying on Saturday, had a peachy landing at Kemble (nice bacon butty!) but on return was faced with 15kts straight across the RW with no headwind/tailwind component. One could say that the landing was somewhat interesting. I was wondering if a different approach speed may have helped?

BEagle, I'ld like to try your point-and-power technique; could you explain/e-mail?

PS. Got my PPL, but definitely still willing to learn.

[BEagle]

You'll find a healthy debate on the 'point-and-power' technique on the instructors' forum.

But basically:

Roll out of final turn at the normal point.
Select full flap, adjust attitude to achieve approach speed, trim to maintain that speed.
NOW TRANSFER YOUR ATTENTION TO THE TOUCHDOWN AREA and choose a specific point on the runway to aim at.
Point an imaginary spot on the windscreen at your chosen aiming point and keep it firmly 'on target' by use of the aircraft primary controls.
Glance at the ASI - if approach speed is correct, leave the power set. If it is low, gently increase power by about 50 rpm;if high, reduce by about 50 rpm. Look back at your aiming point - has it moved? If so, point the ac back at it.
Repeat the cycle 'Touchdown point - speed - power. Touchdown point - speed - power' all the way down the approach until the flare. Then gently close the throttle fully and apply sufficient back pressure to reduce the descent rate to zero, look at the far end of the runway and allow the ac to sink the last 1/2 mm onto the runway....

Thumpango if you wish to e-mail me, you can find the address under 'profile'.

[Aerobatic Flyer]

For "point and power", try reading this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61963) in the instructor's forum.

Basically you pick an aiming point which will be a short distance from your intended touchdown point (distance depending on headwind component). You keep that point in a fixed point on the windscreen (not seeming to move up or down) using the elevators, and use the throttle to ensure you maintain the correct approach speed.

As BEagle says, it's a piece of cake and - in my much more limited experience - ensures you consistently land just where you want to.

As for the Warrior approach speed in a crosswind, 65kts on short final with a "wing down", "point and power" approach seems to give the right result pretty consistently - and I'm not any kind of an ace pilot.:)

Looks like I was writing my message just as BEagle posted his.....:rolleyes:

[slim_slag]

Well, bit disappointing today, lesson cancelled due to xwind gusting 17knts!

I'd be extremely disapointed. Max demonstrated crosswind component in a warrior is, believe it or not, 17knts!

You missed a great learning opportunity. I hope you don't get to see a crosswind like that for the first time when you are on your own. I assume your instructor is up to that sort of crosswind himself of course :)

PS I went and rented a warrior today, first time I'd flown one in six months. Tried coming in at 75knts over the threshold and floated halfway down the runway. Then I included the ASI in my scan up to the beginning of the flare, and booger me, I bounced it! Just goes to show your eyes should be outside and not inside when you are close to the ground (well, mine should be outside :)). On my 63 knt approaches, which were very nice indeed, I was a maverick and reduced power to idle abeam the numbers and I did not stall, spin, crash or even - perish the thought - have to add power at any stage before landing.

I think it's smart to ensure a student can demonstrate a stabilised approach at +- 5 knts before solo. I also think a student should be able to fly the pattern/circuit with the airspeed indicator covered (and be +- 5knts of all appropriate airspeeds) before he gets signed off for checkride. Well, that's what I used to do, but I have these ideas from the old days. I wonder how people ever learned how fly back then :D Not everybody wants to be an airline pilot, and students should understand pitch attitude before they understand the ASI.

[In-Cog-neeto]

Lots of useful stuff so far, pick the one that works for you!

Do not confuse approach speed with threashold speed, the two are different.

As a matter of interest a 10% increase in threashold speed will result in a 21% increase in landing distance!

Also, do not 'force' the a/c to land, it will land when there is no lift left to hold it up! :D This is of course the reason for matching elevator input to rate of sink in the hold off.

Warriors may have nose wheels but you should aim to land on the back two every time.

Lastly there is only ONE correct flap setting for landing, and that is 'landing flap' (MAX in other words!)

Enjoy :D

ICN:)

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I had a lot of trouble landing when I was at your stage, and had this cured by an observant instructor, who suggested I sit on a cushion. Onya Nick!
Here's some tips from someone with a few thousand hours of teaching people to land various types of Cherokees.

1. Follow the POH, the guys that wrote it know best, and that is what the insurance company will go by when deciding whether or not you have been negligent or just unlucky in the event of a landing accident. 65 kts is the correct approach speed with full flap in the Warrior.

2. Where to focus...about 10deg above the horizon is good once you are over the numbers. Right through the touch and go. Humans have huge amounts of peripheral vision which you can use to judge height and speed. Don't focus onto the runway or you simply can't judge these things.

3. Don't chase the needles, learn to do the approach by the attitude and feel of the controls, and then use the ASI to confirm that you are trimmed correctly. Then one day if a bee decides to commit suicide in your pitot tube you will have no worries.

4. In the flare forget the ASI, use enough back pressure to keep the gap between the nose and the end of the runway constant. Focus up! About 2 inches workes for me at my height, but this varies with individuals. You are not raising the nose rather than lowering the tail, think back to stalling and the gradual back movement of the control column. That's what you are aiming to achieve when you land. And that is where correct seat height is essential, in my case I couldn't maintain that gap because all I could see in the flare was a facefull of instruments, and I'm not that little, 5 foot 8. One cushion saved my career when I was ready to give up!

5. Don't try too hard. Let the aeroplane land in its own good time. Many students try to "force" it onto the ground, often this is accompanied by a rapid relaxation of the back pressure when the wheels touch the ground (a big no-no). If there's not much runway left, go around.

6. Keep it straight with rudder.

7. Keep it straight and keep the focus up.

8. Keep it straight. It's just as easy to land on the centrline than anywhere else on the runway, and much safer.

9. Keep that focus up right through the touch and go.

10. Applying power in the flare can lead to a marked yaw left. and can take the inexperienced unawares. Not needed in the Warrior. Ever noticed that people always run off the runway to the left in aircraft with props that rotate clockwise from cockpit? Keep it straight!

11. Watch the experts. Seagulls are easy to observe because they seem to land in slow motion. In the absence of seagulls, ducks make good flying instructors too.

Good luck!

[tacpot]

T&G

Recommend you discuss your approach with the instrcutor before you get in the air. Finals is not the time to have an arguement about the wisdom of using POH/FM speeds vs the schools preferred speeds. Agree with your instructor what speeds you will fly the approach before going out to the a/c.

Best wishes

[Thumpango]

Ok this how it went today.

Long discussion with my instructor about final approach speed. Luckily this was in the briefing room before we t/o due to the circuit being busy. When we located the POH (!) lo and behold recommended final approach speed is 63knts, although curiously the manual says trim to 70knts on approach. Do they mean 63knts over the threshold then?
Anyway, the schools policy as dictated by CFI is 75knts so that is what we agree to do, (we can't do anything else really!)

Still evening, calm and excellent flying conditions.
We do 6 circuits, all to the book, and 75knts on approach (nailed!)
Just before the numbers I close throttle and we do 6 reasonable landings! floating for quite a period but by constantly looking out for the sink and then pulling back all the time the stall warner eventually confirmed that the main wheels were ready to touch down, and we did!

My instructor noticed that my best landing was when the AIS over the threshold was 63knts!

No flight training manual I have come across so far has covered the subject of landings as thoughly as the input from this thread.

Thanks to this forum I am now able to think this through clearly and I have improved my landing technique!

Thank you for all your comments! and to Slim_slag for actually chartering a Warrior and trying this out!!

One extra comment I would add though is, when the back wheels have kissed the runway don't forget in the euphoria to lower the nose gently to the ground before doing anything else! avoid premature release of flaps on a touch and go until the nose is on the runway

At the end of the lesson my instructor said although my previous landings were reasonable, today I had greatly improved and were it not for the 90mins before sunset rule he would have sent me solo.

90mins before sunset rule? I feel another thread coming on!!



:)

[slim_slag]

thumpandgo

Anyway, the schools policy as dictated by CFI is 75knts so that is what we agree to do, (we can't do anything else really!)

Did he/she explain the reason for this?

One extra comment I would add though is, when the back wheels have kissed the runway don't forget in the euphoria to lower the nose gently to the ground before doing anything else!

Hmm, the nose wheel will find the runway on its own. You don't want to get into the habit of releasing back pressure, bad habit. One day I hope you will move on to tail draggers, where unthinkingly keeping the stick back in your belly during the roll out is essential. Same applies for warriors, is your instructor telling you to force the nose down?

Thank you for all your comments! and to Slim_slag for actually chartering a Warrior and trying this out!!

Well, I had to go somewhere at short notice with more weight than a super-cub could (legally) carry. It's a bank holiday weekend here, and all I could get on the day was a warrior. I had fun putzing around in the pattern, but they sure don't climb out well with passenger & camping gear, from an airport with density altitude of 8000ft. Almost off the perfomance chart :eek:

icg

Do not confuse approach speed with threashold speed, the two are different.

If you keep a nice tight pattern you don't have an "approach" as such. You certainly should not be doing "approach speed" on final if you are doing standard pattern work, IMO. Downwind is the only place for 75knts. If tower told me to perform a straight in approach, I'd slow down to 63 knots well before I got to the threshold, certainly over a mile out, so short final was properly stabilised. In this thread I was thinking of remaining in the pattern, sorry if I confused matters by inexact use of the word "approach".

cheers

[nonradio]

Just a quick thought - is your eyeline high enough? A cushion can sometimes work wonders.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Glad to hear it went better on your last flight!

s_s is right about lowering the nosewheel onto the runway; if you remember back to the straight and level brief, there is a nose-down turning moment caused by the lift-weight couple, which is why we have a tailplane (or stabilator in the case of the Warrior). As the lift decreases in the landing, and the lower airspeed causes less effectiveness in the stabilator to counteract this, the nose will come down on it's own. No need to release the back pressure, doing so could cause damage to the noswheel and lead to "wheelbarrowing". As you apply power in the touch and go, increasing airspeed and the slipstream effect makes the tailplane more effective, only then should you adjust the back pressure for the correct attitude for take off.

While keeping "eyes up" and centreline under the nose of course!

And I agree that doing a few approaches in a tailwheel will really improve your landing skills!

As for the threshold speed...well that's not a great time to be looking at the ASI, this is the stage where you should be focussing "up". An approach at 75 kts is all very well, and may increase controllability in gusty winds, but just means you will float further while washing off the speed. Fine if you have oodles of runway, not fine if you are trying to land on a short strip say <600m. Have a look at the performance tables in the POH, then see if you can land in those distances with a faster approach speed than recommended.

Good luck!

[Thumpango]

CFI,

thanks for the tip! I am slowly debugging my landings and the advice on this thread has been extremely helpful.
I am developing an appetite for tail draggers now!

[kurty]

I tend to keep the nose of the aircraft at the end of the runway and hold it there and just watch the airspeed washout slowly !

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hi Kurty:

I spent a lot of time in Jeddah at Jet Aviation working on an airplane out on the ramp trying to solve an engine problem.

Also spent many weeks at the Red Sea Palace hotel.

Has it been hot in Jeddah lately? :D

Cat Driver: