Shafting of Instructors

[mr_flydive]

Am I alone in feeling shafted because I enjoy flying and instructing

Pay crap.
Comittement and loyalty expected but not given.

I wouldn't my employees that way but it seems in the current market Flight training organisations think they can treat us any way they feel. Especially Part-Timers

[CurtissJenny]

Could not agree more!

The problem would appear that the schools train more pilots than the market has jobs for. The result is that some people are prepared to accept sub-standard conditions, eg, pay, work unpaid hours on 'the front desk', in hangars etc. just to get the bosses eye and stay on to get those extra hours.
The fact of the matter is that the boss would not be prepared to come around to my place and attend to the phone for fee - ever!
Nor clean my car and bathroom for free - ever.
So why do some pilots do it. Simple they are trying to get more brownie points in front of the next guy.
My opinion is that if the organisation cannot pay reasonable wages (considering the amount the pilot has spent on training) and give reasonable conditions then that organisation should NOT be inbusiness.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Yes a lot of instructors feel shafted, but consider this also. If you feel you are being shafted, what did you agree to when you first started working there? If you agree to work for peanuts and wash the boss's car and executive washroom, then you can't then turn around and say that you are being shafted when you are asked to do exactly that.

When I started up I only ever gave new instructors the realistic view that I would provide an infrastructure within which they could develop their careers if they provided their own students initially, but the rest of the work would be done by myself or my senior instructors. Yet still I had accusations of "you never give me any students!":rolleyes: I will add that my instructors don't have to be there unless they are flying, and the front desk is done by full time ground staff, the instructors are never asked to do anything but instruct.

I know there are employers who expect you to be there all day, and pay you only for flying time. No, this is not good, but if you agreed to it then you have created the situation yourself. The thinking that if you didn't take the job someone else would is not necessarily so, we all started somewhere, and when you reallise that success or failure is your choice and not your employer's, then you too will succeed.

Good luck!

[whisperbrick]

Flydive,

I get the impression that you instruct part time: I think this is the key:yes the pay is poor and will never get better, but if you enjoy it and it is only a side line to your normal occupation then it is a way of getting free flying.

I instructed full time for three years and at the end was tearing my hair out:my flying had long since peaked and started to deteriorate, I had a low level of patience with students, all in all I had a bad case of instructor burn out:I would never recommend anyone doing it full time unless they need the hours prior to going commercial:there is just too much repetition for it to stay enjoyable.

Now I am back doing it and a few days a week is just staying enjoyable, but i shall not be renewing the rating next time.

[Sleeve Wing]

Flydive. -Jenny etc.
Definitely with you regarding the crummy return on our investment.
BUT consider this - the punters can realistically only afford to pay so much per hour before there aren't any punters !
Our problem,in this beloved country of ours,is the cost of the juice we have to shove into our aircraft and also the cost of maintenance/spares amongst other things.
The easiest way to keep the price reasonable is to keep down the rewards for the instructor, and unfortunately there are dozens who are prepared to accept this.
Oh for the days of no VAT, Fuel Tax and even the Aviation Fuel Rebate that Clubs used to get in the Fifties/and,I think,Sixties in order to maintain a pool of trained pilots in the Country !
Such a large proportion of our costs is fuel these days, that unless the diesel comes in or some other source of cheap fuel becomes available,
the situation is unlikely to change.
There are a million young kids out there, deep into Airfix and Free-flight pylon jobs, who will follow just as we did and take anything to get a start in the flying game.

Sleeve.


:( :(

[In-Cog-neeto]

Mr F.D

You are not alone. When I started the instructor poll I was aiming at the same point. However it does seem that over half of us are 'happy' :mad:

I personally have just about had enough of the whole scene. Fortunately the club I work at are very good to me, but this is still on the basis that I do not get paid if I don't fly.

I can also empathise with Whisperbrick, I think I am having a bad case of 'instructor burnout'.

I have done it for three years now and I can assure I will not do it next year.

The answer? I do not know.

Rant over

ICN

[charlie-india-mike]

In-Cog-neeto

If you feel that way, why are you doing it?

As a punter, I want an instructer who enjoys what he/she is doing and has the ability to impart knowledge and experience to us students and not someone who is doing it because they can't get another job.

If you feel that you are getting shafted by your employeers then maybe you should start making an effort to improve your lot by getting another career.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

C-I-M

[whisperbrick]

C-I-M,

come on, wake up.

there are a few instructors who do it part time and just for the enjoyment:whilst the vast majority see it as a stepping stone to airlines,

Do you think we enjoy getting paid £10,000 a year to risk our necks flying light aircraft (oh yes and getting paid sod all when the weather is bad)

Or that we enjoy driving battered cars with 100k miles on them ans seeing students arrive in porsches and ferraris ?

There must be an a motive: progression !

And as a student you are probably totally wrapped up in the beauty of flight:for us it is a job which has good and bad bits like any job (your own included)

But the beauty of flight blah, blah doesn't pay my damn mortgage does it ?:

[charlie-india-mike]

whisperbrick


Do you think that I enjoyed earning 'slave wages' whilst I was gaining the necessary qualifications for my job.

It is something that you do in order to acheive the aim.

But then again, I did not have to deal with paying punters. (I was locked away in a lab)


As a PPL student, I think that I can reasonably expect to recieve a good quality service for my hard earned money and not 'a bad case of instructor burnout'.


BTW No porsche or ferrari here.
:D

[In-Cog-neeto]

Woah boys, steady on.................I did not mean this to become close up and personal ;)

For what it's worth C-I-M I give my students 110 % value.

You have struck close though. I do consider that if my heart is not in it then I should get out, and as I said in my first post I will finish this year.

BTW I would LOVE to get a better job but as you might be aware it is a VERY TOUGH TIME in the aviation industry right now.

A relevant point that I have made in an earlier posting is that the training industry will lose YET ANOTHER highly experienced instructor !!!

I am very good at my job and will leave the training industry at a time when I have a good dollop of the "knowledge and experience" that you seek from an instructor. So what would you prefer C-I-M ? My one and a half thousand hours instructing or someone who has just qualified (no offence meant to fellow instructors) ?.

Maybe it IS a case of 'you get what you pay for' after all. By keeping the pay and motivation down the experienced instructors are leaving in droves.

ICN:p

[whisperbrick]

ok,
C-I-M I forgive you as you have no porsche !
Its just that i have had students with loadsa dosh who swan in without any preparation (you know not reading the thom sections I asked etc.)and feel cos they have money they don't need to make any effort.

In-cog makes an intersting point:which would you rather have a brand new instructor, no experience but keen and eager to do their thing or an experienced person who may be a bit jaded by it all ?

[hdaae]

Well...I got well over 1000 hours as an instructor, and I still enjoy it. I DO think we are very much underpaid, but at the end of the day I really enjoy flying, be it by myself or as an instructor.

As with every job, when youve been overloaded with work, leaving at 0700 in the morning and not leaving the airport until 2300 for weeks, you sometimes look in the mirror and ask yourself "why am I doing this!?!"
But this is the same in most types of jobs.

Basically, I love to fly, and would do it for free if I had to!!

[essouira]

Yes the pay is lousy but I would still rather be teaching people to fly than stuck in an office - even if it would mean earning ten times as much. Am I crazy ?

[GoneWest]

Well - if you think your pay is lousy...I just heard from a colleague that he was offered a job at Comair, Sanford, Florida - as a dual rated (JAA/FAA) flying/flight instructor............for US$10 per hour.

About £6 per hour (pre tax).

[hdaae]

Thats a step up. When I were working at Comair the pay were $7.25 in 1999.

But I really expected the dual rated instructor to get better pay!!
I mean, first go thru the PVT-COM-CFI FAA ordeal.
Then the REAL pain starts with JAA ATPL!! Im doing that right now at Oxford Aviation, and I do enjoy it, but the amount of theory required comared to FAA is quite ....up there to put it mildly.

[imabell]

when i did my helicopter rating in the us in 77 the instructor got $10 an hour it must have gone down since then.??

curtisjenny is pretty much on the mark and charlie foxtrot india is close exept for the fact that most new instructors don't get to negotiate for the terms or conditions of employment, thay just start and accept whatever is given. i agree that if you accept being exploited you have to live with it

it is the over abundance of willing workers that creates the problems that most of you face as you try to get ahead in this industry. supply and demand. the reason that some feel that it's exploitation, (and sometimes it is), is because you were not informed properly on the state of the industry prior to training, or did not do enough homework before setting off down the clay brick road of flying.

i see at the airport that i operate from, young eager guys that are here before me everyday, pushing out aircraft, washing and cleaning windsheilds, sweeping the hangar out and anything else that needs doing, some complain a bit (they are entitled to),most just get stuck in and do it. some bosse use them and other bosses try not to but there is not as much of a profit margin in flying training or charter as there once was. costs are getting out of hand and operators cannot cover these increases without losing customers.

unfortunately things are not looking great for the near future, you can all see that, so if you are lucky enough to have employment in flying then at least you can develop your future. think of the many others that can't get a leg in the door and never get a chance to realise the dream of having the best job on the planet.

don't give up, persevere. the rewards will come. :)

[essouira]

.......... now I can see that £15 per hour isn't really all that lousy after all compared to what you guys in florida are getting ! However, I do think it's worth bearing in mind that the people who run all the small independent flying schools over here aren't ripping off their instructors and making huge profits - the people who have owned the three or four clubs I've worked in over the years have been pretty hard-up too. That's why I don't feel I'm getting shafted as the original post suggested. If we put our prices up lots of the students couldn't afford to learn to fly so we'd end up just teaching rich kids whose daddies paid whatever it cost.

[ClearBlueWater]

I'm not sure of the costs involved in learning to fly fixed wing but in the UK helicopter training costs about GBP 220 per hour including the VAT. Now, if it cost GBP 230 an hour in order to pay the instructor an extra GBP 10 per hour I don't believe that would put off a single potential student.

At its cheapest flying is still expensive. Before we start down this road most of us procrastinate over the money issue. In the end those that want to do it find the cash. Most of the people that I've met who fly helicopters are not rich - but they manage to find GBP 220 per hour, and they could find GBP 230 per hour.

[aces low]

Last few posts hit the nail on the head. The margin just isn't there to pay instructors a decent wage when the cost per flying hour is circa £100. Is it time to accept the fact that we are subsidising the students...and remind them of this when they fail to prepare mentally for a lesson. Paradoxically, It is not just them who pay when they need extra lessons when they are not prepared...by implication we also pay the subsidy but get a free hours flying. Unfortunatley the value of this hour is great when you are a shiny new instructor...it builds your skills and confidence. But after a while the value of this hour is degraded, as although we still are learning, we have seen a lot of it before.

Then its time to upgrade.

p.s. look at commercial instructors where they do get paid a reasonable salary...relatively

[RVR800]

I used to instruct (part-time) like whisperbrick but I too got rather bored with it. I began to feel that I was wearing an old T-shirt

It does get repetitive and after a while I started to worry
about things like the insurance cover.

It became like a job but unlike my day job it paid about
the same as the office cleaners.

The medical & renewal fees increase and the aircraft get older and older. The technology is so old in this game its laughable.

Essentially there is no investment/money in this game and for many of us its a hobby out of control.

This whole industry is artificially subsidised by obsessive (largely male) pilots who are often in a rut. They have invested to much too quit and are clinging on by a thread.

I think that the 'professional' training that instructors and the like
have to go through takes away ones perceived freedom to enjoy the experience as they become obsessed with the mechanics of it all....

Its best to be an instructor if your sociable and like a good view
It part of the entertainment business at the PPL end!

[sunnysideup]

Its that old market forces thing again. As long as there are club owners who feel that the full extent of their marketing program can only be to be £1 cheaper per hour than the guy down the road then they'll get more business.

Problem is, those that work like this are (dare I put this one forward!) instructors who ended up owning flying clubs and have zero commercial sense!!

If the difference between £99 and £129 per hour (extra £15 for the instructor, extra £15 for the club to pay the bloke who owns it a bit more and allow investment in new kit, aircraft, kettle, roof, shoes etc.) is going to mean no-one can afford to fly anymore then why are the rotary boys getting full diaries at £200 + per hour for a poxy R22????

There are several clubs on the airfield I'm on. And the cheapest is the least busy. Why? Probably (only my guess) they have the oldest aircraft, smallest premises, least well decorated and presented, most like a sausage factory, charge for coffee and because your average punter understands that he gets what he pays for and is willing to pay to enjoy his/her leisure time.

It takes more balls than any instructor I've met to demand a decent wage but the recent talk of an instructors union may help. It also takes more balls than any Club owner I know to be out there on their own £30 more expensive than everyone else.

So when we welcome in the NPPL because its cheaper for the students, or we try and find cheaper maintenance or we all eventually get deisel engines and drop our rates accordingly (some idiots will, trust me!) then we really only shoot ourselves and everyone else in the GA industry in the foot.

If we all got real, no-one would lose students (if they want to fly, they find the money) and self-fly hirers and everyone would get at least a living wage.

Fancy that. Me, a Club owner, looking to pay an instructor £15 more per flying hour!!!!

Gentlemen. We only have ourselves to blame.

[cessnababe]

The reality is that flying instruction in this country is far too cheap. as some of you posters have pointed out people are prepared to pay over £200 for rotary instruction in an R22. If we were to operate new aeroplanes for training, then the punter would be prepared to pay proportionally more. It is all about impressions.
Why do you think people pay to do their PPL with a certain company that has a uniform with the instructors wearing gold bars even though they have minimum hours? It is a fantasy that they are all going to become airline pilots and that company gets away with charging £40 per hour more than most others.

The answer to all of our problems is to put up the price of flying instruction by about £60 per hour so that there is adequate margin to pay the instructors a decent wage and a bit over for the owner to make a profit. What do people pay their golf pro or their tennis pro or their masseur or their therapist? I bet you none of these guys would work for less than £30 per hour,so that is what you should be shooting for. If anyone agrees with me then please let me know.

[Chrisdahut1]

Wow, you guys in the UK sure have it better then us guys in the U.S. I could only dream of making UKP20000 per year!!! Right now I'm making less then $10000 per year!! And yes, I work for one of the big Florida flight schools (but I'm planning on changing that sometime in the near future).

I didn't intend on becoming a flight instructor when I started flying, but had no choice but to become one (like most other pilots). But after a year of doing it, I've come to enjoy the job and the people I work with and train. And due to the current hiring climate, I'm going to have to work this job for at least another year and a half. So I'm moving to a flight school elsewhere in the country (at least trying to) that treats instructors a little more like human beings and pays more then $10 an hour, and guarentees more flight time. I still have my dignity, just a shame the flight school is going to lose one of it's experienced instructors. But they don't seem to care...as long as they can replace me with a "yes man" that will work for $10 an hour and work only 10 hours a week, they think they're better off!

Yes, I've had a bit to drink and I'm rambling a little incoherently....but I'm still sticking to the spirirt of the thread :-)

[essouira]

Well for the first time ever I am starting to change my mind about something pretty fundamental - directly as a result of a pprune thread ! Yes, the other british instructors have made a really good argument for a substantial increase in the cost of ppl training in order that the instructors get paid properly. But where do we go from here ? There must be thousands of instructors who have the view that I've always had ie "rather be an instructor for £15 per hour than a programmer for £50 per hour". Actually I now realise I'd rather be an instructor for £30 per hour - especially when I look at how much it costs me for medicals, flight tests, travel to the airfield etc. However, I'm not sure the problem can be resolved while there are streams of young pilots coming along wanting to fly as much as possible and not caring about the pay because they look on it as an investment for their future airline careers. That's what I think stops instructing being viewed as a career - and therefore stops proper pay scales.

[juswonnafly]

Fancy that. Me, a Club owner, looking to pay an instructor £15 more per flying hour!!!!

Well said Sunnysideup, very refreshing. What are your views on flying clubs that fail to pay ex instructors of theirs?

JWF :D

[sunnysideup]

What are your views on flying clubs that fail to pay ex instructors of theirs?

JWF. Tried to think of a non-liablous, nice way of responding to this but after many uses of the "delete key" could only come up with the fact that, just like in any industry, there are Instructors who are dishonest little sh*ts and there are Club Owners who are dishonest little Sh*ts.

Then there are good, honest, hard-working, loyal and honourable Instructors and Club Owners who end up falling out big time and accuse each other of being in the category, as well as both making it justifiably very personal and BOTH doing things that with hindsight, neither would have risked, mainly because neither of them have enough money a. to be comfortable b. to be completely honest about whats owed or c. to allow time to sort it out!!!!!!!

This just adds more fuel to the debate and results in more bad feelings and threads such as this

I have a similar problem at the moment which has dragged on a fair while but I will be resolving in the next couple of weeks because I made a personal commitment to do so when I could personally afford to. I did this because we were able to talk sometime after and both put our hands up to being as bad as each other and agree that lifes too short.

It would never happen in the majority of cases if schools charged a reasonable amount and Club Owners and Instructors could make a decent living.

We are all in this because we love the smell of AvGas. Sometimes the fumes cloud our judgement. We all have to eat when we get out of aircraft and go back to grim reality.

As much as it sometimes seems a horrible thought, its money that makes the world (and the propellors) go round and if we all had just enough the industry would not be as rife with Instructors and Club Owners who feel so hard done by each other

[Ludwig]

I'm sure most flying school owners are well meaning decent people who do not set out to shaft their instructors or any other employee. It would be interesting to do a few sums to see exactly what it should cost here in the UK for PPL training (say) in a bog standard 172 or PA28, and pay the instructors a decent wage to boot, say national average earnings around £18,000 a year and perhaps cover their necessary fees like medicals etc.

Assume the school is reasonably well equipped with a rented office and hangar on an airfield somewhere and has 6 to 12 a/c. Assuming these a/c are in reasonable nick that's an investment for someone of thick end of £250,000 in kit. Say 6 or 8 instructors part and full time at £18,000 pa (or pro rata). Usual £1 a litre type fuel costs, maitanance ground staff etc. Then add in a reasonable return on investment and a premium for the risk level being taken by the investor (Venture capitalists work on about 50%IRR), and then a sensible utilisation rate, taking account of tech a/c and weather etc.

Anyone care to give me an hourly flying rate and then speculate as to its obtainability here when just about any instructor can then set up next door with no staff and an a/c they rent of some struggling private owner who cannot really afford it, and under cut prices?

[juswonnafly]

Sunnysideup

Interesting reply. I do hope of course that both you and me are not considered to be in your first description of instructors and club owners :)

I too have an ongoing matter of a similar nature, perhaps we will both be fortunate to have these matters settled in the very near future. You are right. life is too short.

I have found this industry to be quite 'tight' and what goes round comes round. It would be nice to think that we can solve our respective differences with these third parties and then just get on with what I am sure we both do well.......aviating :D :D

Cheers

JWF :)

[Cat IIIC]

All of us knew what we were getting ourselves into so we can't ask for any sympathy now!!

My mum says "S**t or get off the bog".

There is light at the end of the tunnel though so don't despair, just think of all that dough you'll be earning in 10 years time.

[Night Rider]

cessnababe,

Spot on - I couldn't have put it better myself!

[essouira]

CAT IIIC - I think you may have missed the point here. We are instructors - that's what we want to be. There is no "think of all the money you'll make in ten years time" - unless things change, many of us can't stay as instructors for another ten years. I, for one, believe that we have a responsible job that should pay enough for us to have a reasonable lifestyle. If I wanted to be rich I wouldn't have chosen to be a flying instructor, that's for sure - but that doesn't mean we can't get a reasonable salary for a professional job. Cessnababe seems to have a much better grip of the reality here.

[Cat IIIC]

NO, I dont think I have missed the point. I'm an instructor of three years and what I'm trying to get across is that if you're not happy then do something else. I love being an instructor, just don't love the money but I dont WHINE about it, i just get on. One day I know i'll earn loads.

Yeah, you've all got a fantastic grip on reality. Lets put £60 an hour on top of all PPL training and send another couple of hundred prospective clients over to the States every year. Great idea folks!!!!

:confused:

[Worldbeater]

Cat IIIc - Can you be more exact about which job it is thats going to pay you huge great wads of cash? If its airline, presumably you're using instructing as a stepping stone, if you think you going to get rich on instructing, I think you're sadly mistaken

[martinidoc]

As a part timer who thankfully does not have to rely upon the income and instructs for fun, I have to agree that the instructing industry is responsible for under-valuing itself. The stiff upper lip approach is not conducive to producing the best quality of instruction in my opinion.

Some individuals are natural instructors who would prefer to stay on in instructing and make a career out of it, but find it impossible to maintain a reasonable standard of living by doing so.

What is needed is a proper career structure with suitable rewards based upon assessment and career progression, so that the talented instructors are retained and valued.

[Ludwig]

I continue to struggle with this one.

I agree with Martindoc and I'm sure it would make for a much better, more enthused and focused instructors than some (not by anymeans all) of the instructors one sees in schools who clearly have that "God I'm going to be an airline captain and I'm only here becasue I have to be don't mess with me I am already pissed off" attitude. If we accept that most flying school owner are not making a fortune and are more likley lossing one, the only other variable in the equation has to be hire rates both for the aircraft and the instructor.

Again if you accept that there are costs to employong anyone, even on a pay as you fly basis, some of the instructor element has to go to the operator to cover those costs, and of course they also want to try and make a profit. (No business, not even a flying school is there to provide employement, or even necessarily train people, its main objective is make a profit for the shareholders, don't forget that). So if you take this into account what rate should be added to the basic self hire rate to give a good enough additional revenue to the operator to enable them to pay the higher salareries. If someone can come up with something workable that will not just turn customers away, I am sure it will be used.

Some suggestions from you instructors out there would be more contructive than just saying I want more money.

Also bear this in mind, Wannabes and Private Flying forums are full of people trying to get flying as cheaply as possible. No doubt most of you as instructors have spent time hunting around for the cheapest possible flying to build hours or whatever. This seems contary to the desire now to up the overall cost of flying now that you are looking to make money.

[hdaae]

Its seems like everything has been said a couple of times already in this thread.

As Ludwig says, when most of us were students we were looking REALLY hard to get the best deal.
I checked out several schools and wanted the cheapest way of getting my ratings with a CERTAIN degree of quality.
Flight Safety were way too expensive so I chose Comair in Florida.
Now Ive been informed that they have really upped their prices and Scandinavian students are really hard (close to impossible) to get started there.
Ive dreamed of being able to live off instructing because my students tell me Im good at it and most importantly, I enjoy it.
Im not going to pretend that I dont wanna fly for a big Airline, but Im in no rush. I think I belong to the majority in that respect.

But the aviation training market is too narrow and the students that have big bucks are hard to come by. Mostly its younger ppl at the end of their teens/start of their twenties that are dreaming of becoming airline pilots, but have VERY limited funds, just like US when we started.
PLUS...there are SOO many instructors out there compared to the number of students, so if you try to up the price, you will find yourself without buissniss.

Its a matter of supply and demand....And we are short of students....

[neils]

The school I work for pay me a good salary and pay for any licence renewals. My twin instructor rating was paid for as well.
They are out there!
Neils

[essouira]

Do they have any vacancies ? Is it Wyton ? Fenland ? Where ?

[walkingthewalk]

Neils: you are winding us up.

Is this FTO in the UK ? and if it is then what do you have to do for them in addition to your flying duties :D

[CurtissJenny]

A theme within this thread has been that the zero-experience wanbees do the rounds of the flying schools to see who charges the least, ie per aircraft hour.

It is not until after they start flying with that 'cheap per hour' organisation that it slowly dawns on them that they are being taken for a ride in that their flying is not progressing at the same rate as their mate who went to fly with a different school that charged more per hour!. They have a feeling that they are being stuffed around.
In short they will have to do more of those 'cheap' hours to get to the expected standard.
Now if they had paid more per hour from the start prehaps they could have ended up with a more experienced instructor, one who could get them through to standard in a shorter time and therefore save them money compared to 'cheap hours charlie'.

Perhaps when we as instructors encounter the wanabees looking at prices we should strongly push the aspect that it is quality of instruction, not cost per hour, that will see them through to standard in the quickest time and with a better standard at that.

A higher cost per hour should also be indicative of a better, more realistic, pay per hour to the instructor, an instructor who is encouraged to stay on and in the industry simply because he/she is paid a reasonable wage for (good) services rendered.

[hdaae]

I might be reading this post completely wrong, but you seem to imply that I will give instruction of lesser quality since I work at a school with cheap hour rates?
Thats a matter of work etics and selfrespect. I wont give a student a worse product just because I get only $10 an hour.
Implying that is on the verge of being insulting.

Now...i might agree that with a better pay you might get the instructors that have worked there for a while to actually stay beyond the usual 1000 hour totaltime and 200 multi.
But, as I said, when I got my ratings Comair were a cheap alternative, but a REALLY good alternative. It were QUICK and Ive seen more expensive alternatives give lesser value by a mile.
Comair has upped their prices so they no longer fall into the cheap alternative, but thats hardly the point.

But making it an rule that cheap rates means poor quality is way too simple.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Fact: Aeroplanes cost x per hour to operate
Fact: There is no such thing as cheap flying, and lower hourly rates are often made up for by all sorts of hidden costs.
Fact: Many operators save costs by ripping off their staff. Not only in the rates they are paid, but other entitlements such as superannuation.

When the wannabes are shopping around, they always ask what the hourly rates are, and as curtissjenny has rightly said there is more to it than the hourly rate. There are things they don't see initially, the quality of aircraft, maintenance, service, infrastructure etc. It simply isn't possible to run a flying school efficiently and safely if you are operating below cost.

hdaae, I believe the majority of instructors give their very best to their students. But there is no doubt that those who feel they are not being treated well by their employer may be tempted to have a good bitch about the boss with their colleagues, and this will affect the quality of their work.

[hdaae]

Agreed!

Ive been treated soso sometimes, and might hold a grudge towards the boss about it, but when a student walks in the door with his hardearned cash in his hand, I wouldnt be able to sleep comfortably if I got back at him because I were sore at my boss.

But when it comes to the equipment, aircraft availability etc I agree that prices can have an impact.
But remember low prices make wannabes fly there, and if you can build a good volume of low price customers the cashflow will be fairly good at the end of the day.

THAT being said, I wouldnt mind getting $30 an hour......

[essouira]

There is another side to this. A certain very large chain of flight schools in the UK charges buckets loads of cash and then (in some cases) treats its students as if they are on a production line. I've seen one of their instructors take students out to fly in obviously unsuitable conditions so that the "instructor" could get the hours. It's not always the case that the higher the price the better the product. You may just be paying for some absentee shareholder to make mega bucks.

[neils]

Sorry, didn't I say? Come and fly at sunny *no advertising thanks, CFI*
PS Okay so I am doing a bit of painting at the moment round the place but I only have to work Monday to Friday. That leaves me the weekend to mess around in someone else's Stampe and Firefly.......

Ho hum, back to the night flying.

[essouira]

Has anyone noticed how many hits this thread has had ??? I wonder if it's beaten any records. It's strange, though, how only 45 have contributed. Do all you other people have a view ? Let's hear it.
ps I am so-o-o-o jealous of neils and want to murder him so I can get his job.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Essouira since you ask.................

From another thread in this forum it transpires that there are a number of different categories of instructors. The vast minority of these are the instructors for life and a living. The majority uses it as a stepping stone to the airlines closely followed by those who do it just for fun.

Therein lies the answer to the question.

Interesting to see that Aces Low feels that the instructors subsidise the flying of the students..............!

Can we assume that he/she will have addressed this situation by paying extra when enjoying his/her training. For that matter have any of you that moan about instructor pay slipped your tutor an extra tenner in your days?

I think it is a more widespread belief that students actually subsidise the flying career of the instructor.

Instead of moaning about bad pay and bad treatment you could obviously consider getting yourself a proper job until you have saved the 30-50k for the necessary training.

I can tell you now, the view from your office is a lot better!

FD

[juswonnafly]

I just came back to this thread to see how things were moving.

I am STILL waiting for my 'situation' to be solved, I just wondered how SUNNYSIDEUP is getting on with 'his' endeavours?

You see fellow Ppruners, I am STILL being shafted! Regarding the FLYING SCHOOL OWNER who still owes me a LOT of money, he is ALL TALK and NO ACTION!

I have previously mentioned the School by name but this was quickly removed by the moderators.

Well, the problem is that this particular school have shafted at least two instructors previously and who knows how many more in the future.

Yes, this is a personal grievance, but next time it could involve you!

Does anyone have any useful suggestions?

JWF

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi JWF

I think that if you are convinced that your claim is justified and if the people you are dealing with are not sticking to a promise made to you, one could adopt a pragmatic approach.

You state that they are all promises and no action but have you sought legal advice. Have the organisation that you are talking about acknowledged your claim?

I am not a legal eagle so find someone that is and ask for advice. If you dont want or have the money for this go and talk to the Citizen's Advice Bureau.

One could fire a shot across the bow and state that if this matter is not resolved within say 2 weeks you will start legal action and that you will not only seek financial redress of initial claim but also any costs arising from the pursuit of your claim.

However do bear in mind that the aviation world is a pretty small one and bad news travels fast and reputations are easily damaged.

You are, it seems, disappointed that the moderaters removed the name of the establishment that you are currently embroilled with. However as bulletin board providers they have a duty of care towards those mentioned on it.

Furthermore you would not want to have to pay any of the hard earned cash as compensation for libel if the organisation was to take you on for such a claim.

FD

[juswonnafly]

FD.................thank you for the reply.

I did take legal action against the school concerned and indeed the courts issued a 'Couny Court Judgement' against the school.

The problem is (was) that the owners of the school resigned as directors and sold the business. In the mean time they set up again operating under the same name at the same premises however under the wing of a different 'parent' company. This all makes it very difficult to legally recover monies owing.

I do not wish to spend 'good money after bad' however I will make it my duty to generally embarrass the people concerned and become a thorn in their side.

Unless of course they pay up (AS PROMISED) very soon.

For your interest the person concerned has already contributed to this particular thread.

It's a 'Sunny' world :p

JWF

[bladeslapper]

I confess to only skimming through this thread, but unfortunately in general it would appear that your desire to fly first and foremost, seems to be the root cause of your problems.

If the job you were going to choose was more mundane than the world of aviation, then I guess you would have been more critical of pay and conditions etc. at the outset.

The 'must fly' in the heart overules the logic of the head. Anyone entering this industry cannot help but see the problems that have existed in the industry for some considerable time. It is not a new problem. However, for many, being prepared to walk away from the excitment of flying seems to be too much for the heart to bear and therefore the logic of the head is over-ruled. Understand....you have now helped to propagate the problem.

If the difficulties of pay / conditions were resolved to your satisfation then I think a lot of us may never have ever afforded to learn to fly in the first place and there wouldn't be many students following eagerly (but also with rose tinted glasses) in your footsteps now. No students - no income - no experience - NO FLY!

It is inevitable that there will be organisations that are insufficiently funded and / or badly run with the consequence these are not good places to work, in which case the choice to stay or go is yours. But for those who supposedly entered the industry with eyes open (well you should have done, with what you were about to spend), whether to remain an instructor or to upgrade to the big toys, I think you have to accept that you spent your cash knowing what to expect and if you keep grumbling, you gonna become sad, bitter and twisted. And you are still part of the problem.

I am sure this post may upset one or two. It is not my intention, but it has to be said, that whingeing does not help. If you come to the conclusion you have made a bad career choice (and an awful financial investment), decide to either GO and get a job that has better pay and conditions but most likely without an avionics layout in front of you, or STAY in the industry and make the best of a bad job with a smile on your face.

Sincere wishes of good fortune to you either way.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi JWF

Sorry to see that the much hailed English legal system has not managed to get you the money to which you are entitled according to the courts.

I find it difficult to understand how people can try to get away with this when it is their legal and moral obligation to settle an issue like this.

As I stated in a previous post the aviation world is a very small one and I hope that you will have financial satisfaction soon so that you dont have to resort to 'naming and shaming' or may be it should be positively labelled and called warning the unaware :eek:

I am a newcomer to PPRuNe so have no clue who you are referring to but assume that 'old hands' may have seen the posting you refer to before it got moderated.

Must be embarrassing for the party involved especially if they contribute to this forum.

If what you state is true (and have no reason to disbelieve you) So that if you mention who it is should be no problem (however you may want to check that with a legal eagle) from a libel point of view.

FWIW and MHO of course.

FD

[juswonnafly]

Hi F.D.

'naming and shaming' or may be it should be positively labelled and called warning the unaware

I like that, good idea:)

I had also thought of listing the CCJ reference no, oh and the Industrial Tribunal ref no's too!

Hmm, it sounds SOOOO tempting:D

Now how do you like your eggs? Sunnysideup perhaps:p

JWF

[sunnysideup]

J W F

I've been overseas for five weeks without internet access so I've only just caught up on threads that I have an interest in. Seems that your situation is still very much alive and kicking.

The instructor I had a problem with gave a very similar story of his version of events to those that would listen. I had different view of course.

Whilst I was away, my guy and another instructor decided that they would not relay a probelm to me and thought a better proposition would be to steal student record cards, tell everyone the club had gone bankrupt, write to all the students suggesting they go fly with him at a school in close competition to mine and generally cause a lot of grief.

With the above, I thought at the time that the instructors concerned where entitled to nothing, but I stopped my Directors short of legal action believing that nothing would come of it other than more problems for everybody. It also seemed pointless to go down a road that would no doubt blight the reputation of the instructors and me in this small community that is GA. Anger and revenge never did anyone any good in the long term.

This was my version of events of course. I still strongly believe that this was the case and that I was well and trully shafted, and got very upset and angry at the whole scenario, as you could imagine.

I guess the unbiased truth is somewhere in the middle.

In retrospect, I prefer to be philosophical about it all, blaming the behavior of this otherwise professional and all round nice bloke on human nature when things are bad. Everyone needs someone to blame in a crisis and I liken it to a messy, acromonious divorce. People say and do things they would otherwise never get involved in normally.

The instructor, having failed to put the club out of business all together, decided a CCJ would be worth a shot. Although I also took the Club away from a parent company that I had no control over, that company is still very much alive as far as I know and I don't know if the instructor has continued with his legal action against them. Having lost money myself in the thing, I wish him good luck.

Now with the Club standing on its own two feet, I thought that I still had a moral obligation to ensure that no-one was shafted and settle a couple of outstanding disputes from a time when, after all, I was the Operations Manager.

The instuctor and I did manage to have a civil conversation some months later and both put our hands up that we were as bad as each other and agreed to call it a draw. Lifes to short. We agreed that some money was owed morally and I said I would pay it out of my own pocket as long as we could put it behind us and get on with life, at least now managing to be civil to each other if ever our paths crossed. I gave him some money at that point with the undestanding that more would be forthcoming when I had it, although it may take some time. We are just as well apid as instructors!!. All happy, I thought. Of course, if he finds himself a little short he may well decide to kick up a fuss publically without the courtesy of getting in touch with me.

So you see there are two sides to every story. And the stories get worse as time goes on if direct communication is not established.

Maybe, J W F, you find yourself in a similar postion. Maybe you feel agrieved still because, in you own mind, you only believe your version of events and there is another side to your story. I'm certain from your postings that you are still owed something so why don't you make direct contact rather than going down a road that leads to a lot of twisted stories and moderator censorship before the truth is finally established??

Personally, I will always take a telephone call or a visit from the instructor that I have outstanding issues with. Its the only proper and professional way to deal with things.

I wish you good luck, JWF, in solving your dispute shortly without going down a road that you have recenly started. Just the wrong way of dealing with it IMHO. If I can help in any way by giving you an insight into what its like on the other side of your fence, you can always ask.

After all, naming and shaming works both ways.

[juswonnafly]

Sunnysideup.......

Interesting views, however my problem is that the person I have my grievence with ignores my letters.....what do I do?

He has agreed that he owes me £**** and despite promising to pay (since May by the way!) I have not received a bean!

You see, despite hearsay and gossip, I still remain unpaid for the month of December last year.

As for naming and shaming working both ways you have a point, I will be the first to offer my name to third parties should the need arise, I have nothing to hide. It would however have a greater and very negative effect on the school in question, so for the time being I have elected not to 'come out'. I am quietly hoping that the other party in my case will pay me what I am owed and then the dust can settle once and for all. On the other hand.........................?

Cheers

JWF

[charlie-india-mike]

juswonnafly,Sunnysideup

Why don't you two sit down together and sort your issues out like a pair af adults and stop behaving like a couple of spoilt kids
:mad: :mad:

[juswonnafly]

C-I-M.....

I notice from your profile that you are a ppl student (nothing wrong with that) however this is a forum for instructors :) . No one is forcing you read this topic so with respect I do not see what it has to do with you :p

The purpose of pprune is for interested parties to air thoughts, opinions and comments about aviation (originally 'professional aviation'). Whilst my own topic on this thread is indeed personal I have made comment for two reasons...1/ to see if I can induce the 'other party' into paying me (I do know he reads Pprune) and 2/ to draw attention to other instructors of the risks involved in dealing with unscrupulous and untrustworthy flying clubs and their owners.

Remember this thread is titled 'Shafting of Instructors'

JWF :)

[sunnysideup]

I concur.

I've chosen to air my views, careful not to blight the name of someone who I generally respect and like as an instructor and a human being (even if I do a particular issue with his actions in one particular instance), because along with the comments of JWF and others, it shows how "the shafting of instructors" can sometimes have two sides.

Its also a good example of how and why things go wrong. That has to be of interest and use to anyone in who is an Instructor or considering it.

IMHO, the previous postings are exactly the type of thing that this forum is for. No names have been mentioned, no-ones been directly slandered despite obvious strong opinions and beliefs on both sides of the fence.

Personally, I have no problem with the strong opposing views to my own postings if it is in the spirit of good debate and of use to all who read them.

Its certainly led me to to give my own problem more attention and I'll be calling the instructor concerned in the coming week to make sure that its solved without delay to mutual satisfaction in case that situation does all start to get out of hand.

[Tim24]

I actually enjoy instructing! I have got 1800 hours and have done it for about 3 years. I could now quit instructing and do it part time and get a well paid job doing something else and still apply for airlines, i have more total time than any airline usually asks for. What about if i wanted to do it for a career? Should i still be shafted? The reason why no one wants to do it for a carrer is that noone wants to be washing the bosses car for the rest of their life. If clubs/schools treated their instructors with respect they may hang on to them longer and get better quality of instructing from there instructors.

[cyyz]

"I wouldn't let you waste your money, if I could go back 5 years I would have taken a line job and be flying for a carrier by now" Words straight out of the mouth of our CFI.

Yes, I'm not an instructor but I'm adding my two cents, for those who love to teach flying, good for you. Those that whine, quit or call up a union and they'll get a union setup for you in no time. Hoffa(I know) and his teamsters would be more then willing to come up with something for you guys.

The pay at our school is $18/hr and the student pays $40. 45% goes to the instructor, in the real estate market an agent WILL NEVER take home more then 5% of a sale. So you're being paid well enough. If you were flying every day it's 38,000. Not bad when the people at "McDonald's" get paid 6.80 = 15,000 a year. So the student you're "training" will be making half of your bread and butter. so "shhh"

You're the Captain of a Cessna 150 so fractionally speaking the Capt of the Airbus is making less then you. You have ONE passanger, one tiny ship. They command a something larger and thus they deserve more pay. They're getting a dollar a head tops, you 18 per head!

OR lets pay instructors $100/hr, watch how many student's you'll have, how much complaining you'll be doing how you can't pay for parking.

Or just do like sunnysides instructors, steal the students start your own flight school. You'll be making billions(sarcasm). Honsetly if your flight school that is right by your house isnt' good enough, commute to a flight school that's better or make your own, or do a few nose landings and break the planes and put the school out of business if it'll cheer you up.


I had a problem with my flight school, I'd book the plane for 3 hrs and bring it back in an hour and they said "you booked it for 3 hrs and brought it back early, bad" they wanted to charge me. So the next day I picked up the plane flew to the another airport, left the plane there, flew back at night, the plane was gone for almost 10 hours, I was charged for "flight time" two hours, they don't tell me anything about bringing the plane back early. =)

YOU have the power to do anything.

[DesiPilot]

CYYZ,

The flight instructor is not the agent, he/she is the person who is providing the services. The school is the agent. So you see, as per your theory, the agent is keeping 55% of the income.

As for whinning, no one is ever content. If some instructors want to write about it, so be it. That doesnt mean that they dont love instructing. Would you rather go with an instructor who is underpaid or with an instructor whos pay is at par (assuming you as a student still pay $40 per hour!)?

In my school, which is part of history now, due to new visa requiremtns, we charged students US$15 per hour and we paid instructors US$15 per hour. I hope that clarifies what we instructors mean by shafting.

Anyway, good luck with your flight training.

Best Wishes,
Jatin Gaur

Oh and I almost forgot, your posting doesnt show the best attitude either!!

I had a problem with my flight school, I'd book the plane for 3 hrs and bring it back in an hour and they said "you booked it for 3 hrs and brought it back early, bad" they wanted to charge me. So the next day I picked up the plane flew to the another airport, left the plane there, flew back at night, the plane was gone for almost 10 hours, I was charged for "flight time" two hours, they don't tell me anything about bringing the plane back early. =)

[cyyz]

LOL, My theory, bring back the plane early so others can use it, their theory, lol we'll charge you for bringing it back early and still make money off of some one still flying it.. So they'd be making twice the cash. Not quite logical thinking, so I showed them I was doing them a favour instead of taking the plane for XX amount of hours and not flying it, that they were able to make more money off the plane upon it's arrival since they charge for flight time.


I agree about instructors being shafted, but their wage isn't what they're being screwed with. My instructor wasn't allowed to teach on the schools multi, because the CFI had a clause in his contract(and insurance) that he was the only one to fly it and get multi-hours. so my instructor went to the charter bought block time on their plane and teaches on it. charging same rate for the plane and $15/hr for his lessons at the school he was making $18.

HERE a better example, Young Drivers of Canada, and most likely any other driving school. The instructor provides his own car. At YDC the instructor make $25/hr, he spends his own money on the car, the gas and what not the student pays $35/hr.
At a flight school, the instructor doesn't pay for anything his tools are provided for him. The student pays for the plane and the instructor logs flight time.

SUM it up

driving school
instructor
pays for expenses(insurance, gas,etc)
pays for car
pays with time

TEACHES - $25/hr

Flight instructor
pays for NOTHING
Logs hours

teaches - $18/hr

Happy with that example?

[t'aint natural]

A few points to ponder.

Firstly, the notion in this thread that students are queuing up to spend vast amounts learning to fly the R22 is misplaced. There are too many schools, too many instructors, too many R22s and too few students in the market to maintain viable margins. I speak as an R22 owner and instructor.

Secondly, the notion that we're all going to be making oodles of money in the airlines in ten years time is also highly dubious. The current airline case, that traffic will increase exponentially over the next 20 years as it has in the past 20, is clearly balderdash. The past two years have seen a significant decline in passenger traffic, which according to the airlines should have come back by now. Furthermore, airlines cannot go on forever paying no fuel tax, and that's really going to put the cat among the pigeons.

Thirdly, we're at the point where fewer people want to become airline captains anyway. They're no longer the popular heores of my youth - today they're more often the 'blundering pilot' of tabloid fame who carries the can when it all goes to rats. They get no respect, decreasing satisfaction, and very little money when compared with other professions - doctors, lawyers. If you want a model for the future of airlines, look at the once-proud British maritime industry... Indian captains and Filipino crews working for peanuts.

If you go into a line of business, you have to accept the rate for the job. It's no use holding out for more because you deserve respect - if there are ten guys able and lining up to do your job, the price will come down, simple as that.

To any student looking at a career in aviation, I have one piece of advice - go to law school, then buy a plane and hire some mug to drive it for you.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Interesting subject, historically instructors have been paid peanuts and it will probably never change.

There is one way to make money instructing and that is when you have aquired a lifetime of flying instruct as a freelance and specialize in something that people will pay for.

I operate a one person flight training business in Canada, I have a very low overhead due to not needing to go to all the expense of getting a Government approved operating certificate. Nor do I have all the hassel of needing an instructor rating. My only restriction is I canno't train students for a license, which of course is no problem as my clients already have licenses.

My hourly rate is $50.00 to $450.00 Canadian per hour for dual instruction, the client provides the airplane.

It is beyond me how Instructors can even live on the abismal wages they are paid.

However I have no answer as to how this can be changed.

Cat Driver:

:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Chuck,

It is "Slave Labour" as many of the posts in this thread put it. I agree with them 100%. NAC does not make any money off of the instructors. The reason is the market will only allow so much to be charged for instruction. It barely covers the salary of the instructor.

Recently I had a visit from one of my previous instructors, who is now flying four engine jets for Northwest. He instructed at NAC when we were an FAA only school. His visit reminded me of the program we implemented during his employ at NAC. The program was set up under the premise that instructors are professionals and should be paid according to their experience. We set up four tiers for instruction. The students could choose which level of instructor experience they wanted. It went from a low time instructor all the way to a gold seal instructor. After six months I found that when the instructor would reach the level of experience to move to the next pay level they would not tell me. I thought it was odd and I held an instructor meeting just to discuss that issue. What came out was that they did not want to keep advancing in pay scales (which meant student would pay more for the instructor's time) since the more experienced instructors were not getting much work. The students when given the option between instructors would take the instructor which cost less.

As slaves I believe they do not get what the deserve pay wise as professionals. But also as slaves, they get to make their own schedule and work at their own pace. There is only one restriction I put on them. They must operate within the rules at all times.

Happy Slaving Away,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hi Richard:

All the best to you and yours for Christmas and the New Year.

I see your front runner to replace Trent Lott is Bill Frist, seems he is an airplane lover. If he wins why not get all the Flight Schools to lobby him for tax reductions on "all" flight training.

Another suggestion you may ponder is lobbying the Insurance underwriters to give less expensive insurance to Flight Training businesses who can demonstrate that their quality of flight training will reduce insurance pay outs through less accidents.

The key to this is better Instruction and that can only be acheived through offering incentives to better instructors.

There are only two real incentives that I know of and one is money, the other one is only legal in Nevada as far as I know....but then all your employees would have to be female. :p

This pay for instructors is in my opinion the most serious problem in Aviation, always has been.

Anyhow you give this some thought as I think it is doable with the right game plan.

Chuck Ellsworth.

[Kermit 180]

Instructors may feel they are being shafted, and to a certain point I agree they are. However those of you in the UK and USA should take a look at other countries and be thankful for the pay conditions you have.

As much as it feels hurtful for you to receive only about 45% of each dual flight, consider this. In NZ it would be typical for an instructor to receive about 12% of the total fee charged by the employer.

Schools and Aero Clubs could charge enormous fees for flying and pay their staff salaries that better reflect the time, money and effort put in by instructors to gain their qualifications and experience. But then the option of flying would be out of reach for a large proportion of the population. Those who fly for pleasure would find alternative forms of aviation such as gliding, microlighting etc, and customer bases would diminish, causing widespread lay offs and closures.

In the end, if you don't like it, find an alternative, because it's been like this for years and it is unlikely to change. As an instructor I enjoy my work, the financial hardship is better than flying a desk in a bank or insurance company, and at 50 wishing I hadn't passed up the flying experiences and opportunities I had when I was younger.

I guess it is similar to the scenario of a struggling artist who lives off the small financial retuns from their work and tolerates it because it is their life.

Merry Xmas and happy holidays,

Kermie:)

[walkingthewalk]

I know I have contributed to this debate before and I also know that it "went quiet" for a while before starting again recently.

I was just reading the latest posts and the thought that occurs to me is that the debate is perpetuated by forgetting what "drives" the low rate of pay.

It is NOT the reluctance of those wishing to learn (just take alook at helicopter rates - people pay because that is what they want and that is how much it is - those who want it but cannot pay just go and do something else).

What perpetuates the low pay is that traditionally (and don't we all know this ?) the instructing role was en route to the "jet job" and to build hours you would even have "your arse painted red" if that was what was going to take. For those who do not want this (the "jet job", not the "paint job") it is a tough one because the flight schools can STILL find someone else to do it for less.

Happy happy ! ;)

[robair]

I can relate to what you are saying. I to have had trouble with an employer that I have had. I used to put in a lot of hours and dedication into a place where I worked only to be thanked by them Backstabbing me constantly. They were saying things like "He hasn't ernt his bars"(which upset me greatly) and that was one of the nicer things they said. That was after I had worked 3 jobs to pay for my instructor rating! These poeple were the sort that if they made a mistake rather then owning up to it they would falsify records and blame others rather then owning up to it.
Yes they were Arseholes but it is not the only industry where this sort of thing happens. I have some friends who are musucians who expierience the same thing.
The whole thing is to get out there and meet poeple in the industry and get to know who the good ones are because there are good ones out there who don't saft you. You just have to find them. Thats the hard bit.
The worst thing about instructing is that yes you do get some poeple that just do it to get hours and don't instruct and they are the types that make things difficult for those that like the job, so what you have to do is make your instructing do the talking and rise above that find a good operator and your job will be much batter.
Hows all that sound ? bye for now

[cyyz]

I'd like to ask.... Why, if the conditions are so poor, why haven't the instructors started/joined a union?

[walkingthewalk]

This is about as likely as seeing pink wriggly tailed flying objects.
You must realise that no union is viable unless a majority of the total group of whatever are members of that union.

Take a look at my last post. Even though in the UK, there no longer is an "self improvers" route to getting a CPL/ATPL, it is STILL possible to have plentiful of instructors just from the "doing it for fun" group.

In the UK, most small flying clubs will have a register of 30-40 such people that they can call on at any time - so there is a good chance that they can provide cover for any part of the week.

[t'aint natural]

Well, I'm one such, and I'm not sure I will be for much longer.
I was just charged £205 for a Class 1 medical, and I have to renew it in six months.
The only reason I have the Class 1 is to instruct. I've kept the instructor rating up because if it lapses, I'll never be able to renew - I have a CAA rather than a JAA rating. But the expenditure is getting silly.

[slim_slag]

t'aint natural

You got shafted by the regulator, a monopolistic QUANGO with few market forces driving their decisions. That's unlike customers and especially employers, who deal with market forces everyday.

Do you really need a class 1 medical to instruct in a C152? Wow!

chuck

The way things are going, flight schools in the US are going to need to lobby to get insurance at all. Schools are starting to eat the cost of any damage as they do not dare to make claims for fear of being dropped totally. It's now become the most serious problem for flight schools, not instructor pay.

[walkingthewalk]

t'aint natural

I know how you feel. Unfortunately it appears that JAA instruction regulations have been "commercialised" just like the regulations for twin rating training (no wish to change subject here). So unless you are instructing for the likes of Oxford or that you have excess income from another source, it is now difficult to afford the cost of being an instructor.

There is a small chance that the NPPL will make things easier if there is a lot of demand. What is stupid is that the NPPL is so much like the "old" UK PPL that we had - what on earth was the point of changing it all, only to turn around and go back to the original system to try and attract more people to gaining a PPL.

It may be that in the UK, within 10 years we will only have the commercial flight training organisations remaining. :(

[t'aint natural]

Walking:
Yes, the NPPL is a good thing, but I teach rotary, so no comfort there.
Slimslag:
Yes, you need a Class 1 for instruction in anything. In the good old days before JAR, a Class 1 became a Class 2 after six months, and you could instruct on that. So you only needed a Class 1 once a year.