ANY ATC GUYS - HEEEELP!!! from a bmi pilot!

[flymeboy]

I know this is a repeat but the last thread got very nasty!

I just wanted to know, if I am told to:

"DESCEND FL200 LEVEL 45MILES BEFORE BOVVINGDON"

Does this mean:

a) Descend when I am ready to meet that level constrain (eg. could be 5 mins or so!) or.....

b) Descend NOW as you want that level vacated. I can adjust my rate of descent to meet that constraint. But leave the level NOW!

Hope this is not a silly question? It was not covered on the last thread.

Cheers!;)

[hatsoff]

Not a silly question. It's all about sloppy RT Phraseology

Answer b) is correct.

If we meant answer a) , we should say something like

"descend when ready to fl 200 to be level 45 before Bovingdon"

If in doubt just ask.

[Barry Beaver]

Just do as your bloody told. Don't ask stupid questions that clutter up the r/t.

When your told to do something, do it.

[TrafficTraffic]

He hasnt had his medicine today....I assume he wasnt being serious in his response.

DESCEND FL200 LEVEL 45MILES BEFORE BOVVINGDON

I am not sure what the controller is trying to achieve - you could leave your assigned level now with the minimun descent rate as you like (does ICAO specify 1000fpm?) and then at the last moment dive for the requirement so if he/she is trying to separate you with other traffic it isnt exactly positive and if all they want you at is the 200 x 45 Bovvingdon then why not say WHEN READY?

....puts on nomex suit.....

I totally disagree with the Beaver - If you are not sure of something - ASK - please

:)

[Roger Dodge]

Flymeboy

The answer to why you have to be FL200 45 DME BNN is simply because that is the standing agreement between Daventry andTC MIdlands. Midlands will then descend you to FL150 lvl BNN 25 DME.

As to when you should descend, I would expect you to descend right away, as there is always a reason to do so(certainly in TC airspace), and if the descent is to be at your dicretion, I will tell you to descend when ready.

In this instance, the descent is required because "ac transferred from Daventry sector to TC Midlands at FL200 may infringe TC Cpt airspace for a short distance" "TC Cowly is to ensure that LTMA inbounds vacate FL200 before the northern edge of the WCO corridor"

So there you have it, clear as mud!! Certainly as far as TC airspace is concerned, if we instruct you to climb and descend, we would like it done straight away, though if in doubt ask!!

[fourthreethree]

Flymeboy
Ready for opinion no.163 from ATC?
For me, the clearance does not require you to vacate the level immediately. If it did, then there would be a reason to vacate the level, usually other traffic. Thus, if the controller required the level vacated immediately, a descent restriction should be issued, for example, rate of descent or a time restriction to cross a certain level.

The Clearance in question is a "lazy controllers clearance", and one which I use every day when there is no traffic to effect the descent. Of course I should say "When ready....." but hey, we humans are a lazy species.

Of course, as most have said, if in doubt, ask, but I reckon the argument here is one of common sense Vs ICAO standard phraseology. I'm sure someone will say that "ICAO states...blahblah" but lets face it, who pronounces it "tree niner fife "?:p :p

Hope thats cleared things up for you, but I guess not.

My opinion is that anything can be said or done in ATC as long as it is safe and all who are concerned know and understand exactly what is being done or said.

Oh, and Beaver boy.
How the hell are we supposed to improve pilot/controller relations when jokers like you are using these forums to vent your anger just because your team lost at the weekend or whatever. Reminds me of a certain alpha control. Not heard from him for a while....

[BillyBoy]

Let me add my interpretation to what is quite a contentious topic......

BMA123 Descend WHEN READY FL260 level by margo
In this above example I think it is perfectly clear that the instruction states that the pilot can start his descent when he is ready as long as he makes the restriction by margo.


BMA123 Descend FL260 level by margo
Now in this example the pilot should be expected to vacate his level and start descending at or greater to the minimum requirement ( 500ft per min ) to be at FL260 at or before Margo

To me this is pretty much self explanitory. If you don't say " WHEN READY " or words to that effect you should vacate the level immediately. :p :p
This topic is exactly the reason why more pilots should be visiting ATC to see exactly what it is like on the other side and why us ATCers should be getting fam flights:D :D :D :D

[250 kts]

Well said Billy Boy-that is SPOT ON. Can't believe that anyone can argue with that interpretation???????:rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes:

[buzby15]

Descend means decend.
Descend when ready or pilot discretion means just that.
The addition of a restriction to be level by *** is usually there to constrain the profile to a particular sector or to provide separation from another standard profile, vis a vis descend FL140 level 40 before OCK on G1 keeps the profile separated form the KK inbounds from the north which come through WOD at FL150.
Hence the instruction descent FL140 level 40 before OCK can be thought of in two parts
a) descend (now)
b) make FL140 40 DME before OCK

The one thing I agree with is if in doubt ask. I would rather have the R/T "cluttered" up for a few seconds than be writingincident reports because of a mis-understanding!!!

[javelin]

OK, so lets look at 2 other scenarios -

No 1

If the STAR quotes a planning point of level xxx by yyy, how come we then get another be level by issued over the radio. Example MIRSI 1B arrival into MAN. Plate says expect FL200, 30 before WAL (or something like that) Now you leave DUB and get transferred to London who say be level at FL 240, 70 before WAL - that is nowhere on the plate and just confuses the hell out of me - why can't they stick with the planning advice on the plate ?

No 2

As we climb out of MAN on a HON departure, MAN say no speed control, hand us to London who say be FL310, 50 before MID. Like in your dreams mate in an Airbus - we would have to fire the bottles and get rows 20 through 30 to have a s#*t to achieve that one. Why can't you ask the operators what the aeroplane can achieve under normal conditions before expecting extraordinary rates of climb.

Boeing pilots need not comment on this thread - OK ! That includes you Mr L :D

[Scott Voigt]

One reason that we sometimes give restrictions other than what is on the STAR is due to traffic. You come up with what you need to get aircraft safely by each other and not have to continue to monitor one aircraft. It allows you to go on and continue to watch everyone else and move them about also...

As to the aircraft rates <G>... Well if you are in an A340, then we shouldn't expect much out of you <G>..... As to the shorter Airbusses. They normally seem to climb rather well..

regards

[Intrepid]

"In controlled airspace a pilot shall commence a change of level as soon as possible, but not later than 1 minute after receipt of instructions, unless a later time or place for commencement is specified or approved. A pilot shall report leaving a level which has been maintained for any period."

This is straight from Australian MATS so obviously not completely relevant to your Western Europen discussion however I do have a question reference the instruction "reach a level by a reporting point". Don't you guys have to use the word "requirement" somewhere in the instruction?
eg "Speedbird 234, descend to 9000, QNH 1013, requirement reach FL130 by DOTAP, report maintaining"

The examples before didn't seem to mention it. Just curious to see how you would phrase it. Thx

[Nogbad the Bad]

fourthreethree.......you are COMPLETELY WRONG.

"Descend" means just that.....it is an ATC instruction, to be adhered to............

"Descend when ready" means just that......the pilot can judge his/her descent to achieve whatever restriction is given by ATC at the time.

I suggest you have a chat with your LCE my friend.

Flymeboy......it was a good question, and I hope it has ben answered to your satisfatcion :)

[250 kts]

javelin.

You are getting confused by 2 different procedures. The 70 before WAL bit is an ATC matter to ensure that you:

a) don't infringe othere peoples' airspace and

b) are on a profile which will enable you to comply with the minimum stack level AND 250 kts at the Speed Limit Point.

This was also the reason that many of the other level restrictions were introduced eg FL250 at LOGAN and FL150 at SABER. There were many operators who were paying no attention to the SLP and were doing 320 kts to get the height off and then infringing other holds due to the high speed.

The 50 before MID bit is also an ATC requirement to get you into the London Upper Sector(LUS) and above the Middle sector(LMS). If deleting the speed restriction is the reason you can't make it then tell Manch that the speed will be low to get the height on. They are cancelling it for your benefit usually.

Not making those sort of levels causes additional workload for the ATC system and also has an issue on Flow rates. If you are Requesting FL330 then you are flowed in the LUS rate and not LMS,but not achieving FL305 or above potentially puts you into LMS. Maybe if you are on a long route in an A321 etc then it would be better to file an initial FL below 300 and be included in the LMS rate. At least then if you are doing well LMS can offer you to LUS and be accepted depending on the traffic situation. The other way round LMS has no option but to have the traffic go through the sector in the climb.

Hope this makes sense and helps you in the long run.

[Captain Airclues]

One more question for you ATCOs while we are on a roll.

If we are cleared to FL150 to be level by SABER and then we are changed to a new frequency who then clears us to FL100, do we still have to pass SABER at FL150 or below?

Airclues

[coracle]

Capt Airclues.

As I think has been said before, technically not.

This is because the new instruction cancels the restriction of the previous instruction, unless the restriction is included in the new clearence.

i.e. "Descend FL100 to cross SABER FL150 or below".

However this tends to clutter the R/T especially when Lambourne is bandboxed with NE Deps, and anyway the descent profile tends to make sure that the SABER restriction is met.

Clear as mud I know!!!!

[Captain Airclues]

coracle

Many thanks for the prompt reply.

I have put this question to both pilots and ATCOs, and so far the Yes/No split is about 50/50 for both groups.

Airclues

[PPRuNe Radar]

Captain Airclues

The No's have it since it is clearly stated in the MATS Part 1.

Unfortunately for the 50% of ATCOs who believe the restriction does still apply even if not restated, in the event of an incident caused by reliance on a technically now cancelled restriction, it is hard to see anything happening other than them being hung out to dry for flawed technique.

[AREA52]

Firstly let me respond to Javelin, and his comments.

In reply to: 1) On sector 7, East of Dublin, the level restriction for CC inbounds is FL240 45 before WAL, this is an inter sector standing agreement level with MACC IOM sector. You should receive clearance in plenty time to make this restriction, but it can be difficult with a strong westerly and a few Dublin outbounds underneath. If you are cleared late, this should be co-ordinated with MACC, who should then take account of any further traffic, level or speed restriction problems:confused: . If you do achieve the first restriction you have at least 15NM's to descend a further 4000ft in the ideal world, which this is not.

2) With regards to this point, a lot of the TMA controllers at MACC, but not all, appear not to take a great deal of notice of what goes on outside their own airspace, hence the free speed and subsequent difficulty to make level restrictions. Apologies to those who do look that bit further! but I'm sure most of the people at LACC who interface with MACC will agree this is a problem.
Also, when the level restriction for the LUS sector was brought in, there was a great deal of concern voiced about the a32x and similar performing a/c's ability to make the level and the subsequent workload involved. With regards to this point, the manufacturers and airlines have to accept there own share of responsibility for producing poor performing a/c which whilst being great for economy, are crap for ATC capacity. Therefore, you have to question whether this is good for the airlines overall efficiency as capacity in ATC is, and will continue to be a huge problem. Long live boeing!!!!!!!!!!




With regard to the topic of R/T, laziness is definitely the problem, "descend when ready" or "descend now" end of story and no confusion or queries. However, I would agree that if when ready is not mentioned the the inference is to descend straight away, but how hard is it to say "now".

Oh, and by the way, would certain pilots also start using their callsign's (especially the offenders from across the pond) as it makes our job somewhat difficult when you don't!!

Thank you, rant over!

AREA52

[Goldfish Watcher]

Let me add me tuppence worth here.

EXAMPLE:
"Descend FLAAA" level By ABC then later....

"Descend FLBBB"...


Second clearance technically does cancel the first one - however, in my opinion you'd be a bit of a dick to ignore it. The original restriction was in there for a reason, not for the entertainment of the controller.
Yes, it might be an oversight by the controller who should really have said;

"descend FLBBB, cross ABC FLAAA or below"

But would you deliberately ignore it and possibly put yourself in a dangerous position, just to prove a point?.................

[fourthreethree]

Nogbad

You, my "freind", are missing the point. There is no straightforward right or wrong in this matter. There is, however, safe and unsafe. I will say again, IF there is any traffic to affect descent then a restriction is issued, in order to maintain safety. IF there is not, then the only restriction is that laid down in the LOA, and the pilot chooses his descent profile to meet that restriction. Yes, I should add "when ready" but if I don't, it is because the situation allows me not to.

If the world existed in the black and white environment you seem to live in then this topic would never be raised. Alas, it is that grey area which dominates, and our jobs as ATCO's is to manage that grey area safely.

[javelin]

250kts and Area 52 -

Thanks for the replies, the WAL restriction isn't published anywhere, neither is the 290 abeam DUB/LIFFY which we get and on a morning transat I keep forgetting it. I get the 30 before WAL off the MIRSI STAR. If other restrictions are out there, we need them published because here you get a strange difference between Busses. The 320/321 has a climb problem but will go down faster than a Grimsby Ho. The 330 will climb fast but won't go down :o

So, here's another question. I keep the speed control in, I still can't make 310 - 50 before MID. I probably could if I slowed up and up until I was at min clean. Then you would need a 20 mile level sector to begin climbing again - which is more preferable ?

p.s. - What's a speed limit point :D :cool:

[AREA52]

Dear Javelin

I believe you are probably correct that many of our ATC restrictions are only published in our MATS part 2, which is now published on disc and a paper copy is as hard to find as another fifty ATCO's to man Swanwick properly!

You could ask NATS if they could look into arranging some form of ATC air pilot supplement, but somebody else would need to fund the paper as they are a little short at the moment.

I'm still looking for the fast climbing A330's, and with regards to flying in a32x's, it could be worse, you could be in a e145. Nice roomy flight deck on the buses though, not that we get the chance to find out anymore:(

Thanks NATS and Mr bl**dy Bin Laden!:eek:

Happy flying!:)

[Captain Airclues]

Goldfish Watcher

I agree 100% I always ensure that I make the previous restriction, even if it is not restated. We all make mistakes, and by achieving the restriction you are cutting out one possible link in the error chain.

Airclues

[Maaate]

Intrepid

Don't you guys have to use the word "requirement" somewhere in the instruction?

Shouldn't be using it in Oz either - hasn't been in AIP for about the last 3 years!! :D :D

[DangerousD]

Just my two pennies worth from a freindly macc controller,
1, 'descend fl** level by xyz' in my sunny world i will try and always say when ready if i can give the descent clearance with plenty of track miles.... if i say the above it is usually because i am concerned that an aircraft might have to increase rates of descent to comply or to be at levels by the stacks ie swiss embrears into dayne floating down or the transatlantics being caught high on the top of dublin departures. If the aircraft still does'nt have to descend when i've issued the clearance i would have no qualms with the pilot asking if that was 'pilots descretion?'
2, with regard to manch outbounds filed fl310+ how would i know if this a/c was out of lms's flow rates?? do you know what inter sector agreements are in force between manch sectors??

[AREA52]

For info, all EGCC departures filed at 310+ will not be included in LMS's count as the NAS adaptation would take them through LUS. One to remember in the future perhaps,bye the way I am not valid on LUS/LMS or DTY either, but I am aware of the restriction and the possible implications of giving an A320 free speed whilst approaching the vertically stratified central London sectors.

Not that I am having a go at purely MACC as I know this can happen elsewhere, but I think we should all be more aware of the bigger picture and highlight these problems to other sectors or centres when they keep on occuring.

AREA52:)

[Expeditedescent]

To all the clever clogs who drag up the old "You must always re-state a level restriction if issuing a new clearance"......

Try sitting on NW Deps when its going hell for leather, or how bout CLN West or DTY South first thing in the morning........

If the ATCO had to re-state every descent restriction when issuing a new one, the RT would become so saturated that nobody would get anywhere.

Of course it is correct that a new clearance level wise cancels the old one, thanks to our gloriously outdated MATS Part 1, and I for one believe it is time that rule was re-written to say "A new level clearance shall not negate any previous level restriction imposed."

To any pilots out there I would implore you that if you are given a level restriction and then handed to a new frequency and given another level change, please keep the same profile to comply with the previous restriction, because to be honest we are too busy to have to re-state restrictions all the time......yes, yes I know we should but lets stick to reality not MATS Part 1 fantasy.......for example in MATS Part 1 you cannot rely on expedited rates of climb or descent to achieve level changes........how many TC controllers have used that at some time?
Otherwise if pilots are going to blindly ignore previous restrictions, we may have to start allowing you to level off to meet the restriction before giving further climb or descent, and surely none of us want that?

[Scott Voigt]

I hear the same thing here from some folks. But the fact of the matter is, if you are too busy to do it right, then there need to be some sort of flow restrictions put into place... It is more correct to do it right, and not risk an incident due to an aircraft not making a restriction that you just released him from...

regards