ANY ATC GUYS - HEEEELP!!! from a bmi pilot!

[flymeboy]

I know this is a repeat but the last thread got very nasty!

I just wanted to know, if I am told to:

"DESCEND FL200 LEVEL 45MILES BEFORE BOVVINGDON"

Does this mean:

a) Descend when I am ready to meet that level constrain (eg. could be 5 mins or so!) or.....

b) Descend NOW as you want that level vacated. I can adjust my rate of descent to meet that constraint. But leave the level NOW!

Hope this is not a silly question? It was not covered on the last thread.

Cheers!

[hatsoff]

Not a silly question. It's all about sloppy RT Phraseology

Answer b) is correct.

If we meant answer a) , we should say something like

"descend when ready to fl 200 to be level 45 before Bovingdon"

If in doubt just ask.

[Barry Beaver]

Just do as your bloody told. Don't ask stupid questions that clutter up the r/t.

When your told to do something, do it.

[TrafficTraffic]

I apologise for The Beaver

He hasnt had his medicine today....I assume he wasnt being serious in his response.

DESCEND FL200 LEVEL 45MILES BEFORE BOVVINGDON

I am not sure what the controller is trying to achieve - you could leave your assigned level now with the minimun descent rate as you like (does ICAO specify 1000fpm?) and then at the last moment dive for the requirement so if he/she is trying to separate you with other traffic it isnt exactly positive and if all they want you at is the 200 x 45 Bovvingdon then why not say WHEN READY?

....puts on nomex suit.....

I totally disagree with the Beaver - If you are not sure of something - ASK - please

[Roger Dodge]

Flymeboy

The answer to why you have to be FL200 45 DME BNN is simply because that is the standing agreement between Daventry andTC MIdlands. Midlands will then descend you to FL150 lvl BNN 25 DME.

As to when you should descend, I would expect you to descend right away, as there is always a reason to do so(certainly in TC airspace), and if the descent is to be at your dicretion, I will tell you to descend when ready.

In this instance, the descent is required because "ac transferred from Daventry sector to TC Midlands at FL200 may infringe TC Cpt airspace for a short distance" "TC Cowly is to ensure that LTMA inbounds vacate FL200 before the northern edge of the WCO corridor"

So there you have it, clear as mud!! Certainly as far as TC airspace is concerned, if we instruct you to climb and descend, we would like it done straight away, though if in doubt ask!!

[fourthreethree]

Flymeboy
Ready for opinion no.163 from ATC?
For me, the clearance does not require you to vacate the level immediately. If it did, then there would be a reason to vacate the level, usually other traffic. Thus, if the controller required the level vacated immediately, a descent restriction should be issued, for example, rate of descent or a time restriction to cross a certain level.

The Clearance in question is a "lazy controllers clearance", and one which I use every day when there is no traffic to effect the descent. Of course I should say "When ready....." but hey, we humans are a lazy species.

Of course, as most have said, if in doubt, ask, but I reckon the argument here is one of common sense Vs ICAO standard phraseology. I'm sure someone will say that "ICAO states...blahblah" but lets face it, who pronounces it "tree niner fife "?

Hope thats cleared things up for you, but I guess not.

My opinion is that anything can be said or done in ATC as long as it is safe and all who are concerned know and understand exactly what is being done or said.

Oh, and Beaver boy.
How the hell are we supposed to improve pilot/controller relations when jokers like you are using these forums to vent your anger just because your team lost at the weekend or whatever. Reminds me of a certain alpha control. Not heard from him for a while....

[BillyBoy]

Let me add my interpretation to what is quite a contentious topic......

BMA123 Descend WHEN READY FL260 level by margo

In this above example I think it is perfectly clear that the instruction states that the pilot can start his descent when he is ready as long as he makes the restriction by margo.

BMA123 Descend FL260 level by margo

Now in this example the pilot should be expected to vacate his level and start descending at or greater to the minimum requirement ( 500ft per min ) to be at FL260 at or before Margo

To me this is pretty much self explanitory. If you don't say " WHEN READY " or words to that effect you should vacate the level immediately.
This topic is exactly the reason why more pilots should be visiting ATC to see exactly what it is like on the other side and why us ATCers should be getting fam flights

[250 kts]

Well said Billy Boy-that is SPOT ON. Can't believe that anyone can argue with that interpretation???????

[buzby15]

Descend means decend.
Descend when ready or pilot discretion means just that.
The addition of a restriction to be level by *** is usually there to constrain the profile to a particular sector or to provide separation from another standard profile, vis a vis descend FL140 level 40 before OCK on G1 keeps the profile separated form the KK inbounds from the north which come through WOD at FL150.
Hence the instruction descent FL140 level 40 before OCK can be thought of in two parts
a) descend (now)
b) make FL140 40 DME before OCK

The one thing I agree with is if in doubt ask. I would rather have the R/T "cluttered" up for a few seconds than be writingincident reports because of a mis-understanding!!!

[javelin]

OK, so lets look at 2 other scenarios -

No 1

If the STAR quotes a planning point of level xxx by yyy, how come we then get another be level by issued over the radio. Example MIRSI 1B arrival into MAN. Plate says expect FL200, 30 before WAL (or something like that) Now you leave DUB and get transferred to London who say be level at FL 240, 70 before WAL - that is nowhere on the plate and just confuses the hell out of me - why can't they stick with the planning advice on the plate ?

No 2

As we climb out of MAN on a HON departure, MAN say no speed control, hand us to London who say be FL310, 50 before MID. Like in your dreams mate in an Airbus - we would have to fire the bottles and get rows 20 through 30 to have a s#*t to achieve that one. Why can't you ask the operators what the aeroplane can achieve under normal conditions before expecting extraordinary rates of climb.

Boeing pilots need not comment on this thread - OK ! That includes you Mr L

[Scott Voigt]

One reason that we sometimes give restrictions other than what is on the STAR is due to traffic. You come up with what you need to get aircraft safely by each other and not have to continue to monitor one aircraft. It allows you to go on and continue to watch everyone else and move them about also...

As to the aircraft rates <G>... Well if you are in an A340, then we shouldn't expect much out of you <G>..... As to the shorter Airbusses. They normally seem to climb rather well..

regards

[Intrepid]

"In controlled airspace a pilot shall commence a change of level as soon as possible, but not later than 1 minute after receipt of instructions, unless a later time or place for commencement is specified or approved. A pilot shall report leaving a level which has been maintained for any period."

This is straight from Australian MATS so obviously not completely relevant to your Western Europen discussion however I do have a question reference the instruction "reach a level by a reporting point". Don't you guys have to use the word "requirement" somewhere in the instruction?
eg "Speedbird 234, descend to 9000, QNH 1013, requirement reach FL130 by DOTAP, report maintaining"

The examples before didn't seem to mention it. Just curious to see how you would phrase it. Thx

[Nogbad the Bad]

fourthreethree.......you are COMPLETELY WRONG.

"Descend" means just that.....it is an ATC instruction, to be adhered to............

"Descend when ready" means just that......the pilot can judge his/her descent to achieve whatever restriction is given by ATC at the time.

I suggest you have a chat with your LCE my friend.

Flymeboy......it was a good question, and I hope it has ben answered to your satisfatcion

[250 kts]

javelin.

You are getting confused by 2 different procedures. The 70 before WAL bit is an ATC matter to ensure that you:

a) don't infringe othere peoples' airspace and

b) are on a profile which will enable you to comply with the minimum stack level AND 250 kts at the Speed Limit Point.

This was also the reason that many of the other level restrictions were introduced eg FL250 at LOGAN and FL150 at SABER. There were many operators who were paying no attention to the SLP and were doing 320 kts to get the height off and then infringing other holds due to the high speed.

The 50 before MID bit is also an ATC requirement to get you into the London Upper Sector(LUS) and above the Middle sector(LMS). If deleting the speed restriction is the reason you can't make it then tell Manch that the speed will be low to get the height on. They are cancelling it for your benefit usually.

Not making those sort of levels causes additional workload for the ATC system and also has an issue on Flow rates. If you are Requesting FL330 then you are flowed in the LUS rate and not LMS,but not achieving FL305 or above potentially puts you into LMS. Maybe if you are on a long route in an A321 etc then it would be better to file an initial FL below 300 and be included in the LMS rate. At least then if you are doing well LMS can offer you to LUS and be accepted depending on the traffic situation. The other way round LMS has no option but to have the traffic go through the sector in the climb.

Hope this makes sense and helps you in the long run.

[Captain Airclues]

One more question for you ATCOs while we are on a roll.

If we are cleared to FL150 to be level by SABER and then we are changed to a new frequency who then clears us to FL100, do we still have to pass SABER at FL150 or below?

Airclues

[coracle]

Capt Airclues.

As I think has been said before, technically not.

This is because the new instruction cancels the restriction of the previous instruction, unless the restriction is included in the new clearence.

i.e. "Descend FL100 to cross SABER FL150 or below".

However this tends to clutter the R/T especially when Lambourne is bandboxed with NE Deps, and anyway the descent profile tends to make sure that the SABER restriction is met.

Clear as mud I know!!!!

[Captain Airclues]

coracle

Many thanks for the prompt reply.

I have put this question to both pilots and ATCOs, and so far the Yes/No split is about 50/50 for both groups.

Airclues

[PPRuNe Radar]

Captain Airclues

The No's have it since it is clearly stated in the MATS Part 1.

Unfortunately for the 50% of ATCOs who believe the restriction does still apply even if not restated, in the event of an incident caused by reliance on a technically now cancelled restriction, it is hard to see anything happening other than them being hung out to dry for flawed technique.

[AREA52]

RT confusion

Firstly let me respond to Javelin, and his comments.

In reply to: 1) On sector 7, East of Dublin, the level restriction for CC inbounds is FL240 45 before WAL, this is an inter sector standing agreement level with MACC IOM sector. You should receive clearance in plenty time to make this restriction, but it can be difficult with a strong westerly and a few Dublin outbounds underneath. If you are cleared late, this should be co-ordinated with MACC, who should then take account of any further traffic, level or speed restriction problems . If you do achieve the first restriction you have at least 15NM's to descend a further 4000ft in the ideal world, which this is not.

2) With regards to this point, a lot of the TMA controllers at MACC, but not all, appear not to take a great deal of notice of what goes on outside their own airspace, hence the free speed and subsequent difficulty to make level restrictions. Apologies to those who do look that bit further! but I'm sure most of the people at LACC who interface with MACC will agree this is a problem.
Also, when the level restriction for the LUS sector was brought in, there was a great deal of concern voiced about the a32x and similar performing a/c's ability to make the level and the subsequent workload involved. With regards to this point, the manufacturers and airlines have to accept there own share of responsibility for producing poor performing a/c which whilst being great for economy, are crap for ATC capacity. Therefore, you have to question whether this is good for the airlines overall efficiency as capacity in ATC is, and will continue to be a huge problem. Long live boeing!!!!!!!!!!




With regard to the topic of R/T, laziness is definitely the problem, "descend when ready" or "descend now" end of story and no confusion or queries. However, I would agree that if when ready is not mentioned the the inference is to descend straight away, but how hard is it to say "now".

Oh, and by the way, would certain pilots also start using their callsign's (especially the offenders from across the pond) as it makes our job somewhat difficult when you don't!!

Thank you, rant over!

AREA52

[Goldfish Watcher]

Subsequent clearances

Let me add me tuppence worth here.

EXAMPLE:
"Descend FLAAA" level By ABC then later....

"Descend FLBBB"...


Second clearance technically does cancel the first one - however, in my opinion you'd be a bit of a dick to ignore it. The original restriction was in there for a reason, not for the entertainment of the controller.
Yes, it might be an oversight by the controller who should really have said;

"descend FLBBB, cross ABC FLAAA or below"

But would you deliberately ignore it and possibly put yourself in a dangerous position, just to prove a point?.................