canada [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

The Crimson Fruitbat

13th Jul 2002, 20:41

The top increment (11 years in increments) willing to work his/her overtime max allowable ASSUMING THAT SUCH OVERTIME IS AVAILABLE (48 hours a week averaged out to a "normal" working week ) can earn UP TO £62K (£41K base pay).

You can buy a kilo of "AAA" prime cut steak for £7 (and no "madness") and 24 beers for£14k (345ml bottles).

The Canada/UK highway appears strictly "one way".

Mr Pointy

13th Jul 2002, 22:14

£14k for 24 beers!!!!!!!!!!! Bloody hell, I'm staying put!!!!!!!

Sorry couldn't resist :p

Super G

14th Jul 2002, 01:26

Xray-specs,

The move to Canada could quite possibly be one of the best you will ever make. If you ask him nicely, The Crimson Fruitbat may even expand on why it's so great to be in Canada. Quite apart from the fantastic beer, fabulous women, amazing skiing and scenery the dollars for performing ATC aren't bad either.

The one hurdle you may face however, and is worthy of further research, is the issue of immigration. Having decided early last year I would like to perform ATC in Canada and follow in the esteemed footprints of the Fruitbat, I put the immigration process into action. That was April last year. Just this week I have received a letter from the good folk at immigration Canada requesting my passport and more pictures. In other words the immigration process can be quite lengthy and there are no guarantees they will accept you. There is a points system they work on which if you don't meet or exceed then it can be difficult to qualify.

Nav Canada too can be a little difficult to communicate with and you really have to push them to get a hearing on your experience and qualifications. I freely admit my experience is relatively low coming up on six years, however I know of others with far more experience who had to jump through a lot of hoops to get tested by Nav Canada.

Having said all that though, it is not impossible as the Fruitbat will attest. My plan now is to take my immigration back to Canada some time next year and apply to Nav Canada from the 'inside'. I feel a great deal of resistance will be removed if I do it that way.
Good luck if you decide to move. It can be a trying experience getting there, but once in Canada you may decide never to leave.

Cheers, G

Stomper

15th Jul 2002, 21:29

Crimson,
I would like to know what pay scale you are working off. Working on a current currency conversion table, what you quote in the British pound doesn't exist on the NAVCanada pay scales as their top increment. (41000 BP = CAN$99000). And 62,000 British pounds equates to about CAN$149500. That's alot of overtime. Don't think so!
:confused:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Beldin

16th Jul 2002, 00:20

The 1999 Collective Agreement can be found here (http://www.catca.ca/Barg.html). Way down near the bottom you'll find a listing of salaries. It is in Word format, however.

Of course, the Union is currently working with NavCanada on a new agreement as this expired a year ago. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Hope that helps out a little.

The Crimson Fruitbat

16th Jul 2002, 02:01

As an example from Beldin's link to the agreement (now lapsed but currenly being re-negotiated):

[I]Toronto ACC 1st increment: $82K Canadian (Ai-05-Operational+YZ OFP)
Toronto ACC 11th increment: $106K Canadian (Ai-05-Operational+YZ OFP)

Now only the Ai-05-OP bit counts in the overtime calc (not the OFP)

Beldin gets around $2500 less a year in OFP at YVR ACC (are you ACC?) but lives in the most picturesque and civilised part of the country :D :cool:

Beldin

16th Jul 2002, 03:53

VFR actually... so I start way lower on the totem pole but eventually end up in the same place. LOL

The Crimson Fruitbat

16th Jul 2002, 04:27

Beldin, if you work YVR Tower or will eventually get to YVR Tower, you probably have one of the best views in the ATC world. And, you get the same OFP as YEG, YQM, YWG ACCs etc.

Million $$ views, six figure salary and plane spotting, ya gotta be happy with that!!!

Beldin

16th Jul 2002, 04:46

3 of my favorite things = Couldn't Be Happier :D

madge

16th Jul 2002, 17:52

what about assistants? do you have to be taken on by NavCanada, or are they employed by the airfields?

The Crimson Fruitbat

16th Jul 2002, 21:25

ATOS = Air Traffic Operations Specialists (employed by Nav Can, as are Flight Service Specialists).

Probably best to contact Nav Can....I know nowt about their recuitment.

Proceed As Cleared

16th Jul 2002, 21:49

Working overtime??

Not me!!

YWG ATC

16th Jul 2002, 22:32

Fruitbat - I think you should be careful when telling people about our salaries to not include things like overtime and OFP. OFP and overtime are not part of your salary and are therefore not gaurenteed income. Not everyone wants to work 9 on and 1 off to max out on overtime, and, from what I'm hearing, in places like Toronto and Vancouver ACCs the availablity of overtime has all but gone. You can't tell a controller there that they can work max overtime to supplement their incomes. BTW - where in Canada do you work?

PMS

17th Jul 2002, 01:34

If you ask me after working for those morons in Navcanada for a few years, they would be as worse as any ATC employer that I have seen.

They treat their staff like ****, and the union and most of its members are basically toothless and the management know it and make full use of it.

:D :D

As far as salary goes, it takes 11 years to get up to max salary as they will not pay for years of experience, basically akin to slavery. Trust me you would be better off staying where you are.

TTFN

YWG ATC

17th Jul 2002, 02:06

PMS - You make some good points and I understand your bitterness. However, I'm not sure calling the majority of CATCA members "toothless" is a fair assement. Sounds to me like you had a bad experience and are blaming your ex-coworkers.

I'm also not sure how having to work your way up the pay scales is akin to slavery. I'll assume by your post that you have ATC experience elsewhere, and were not happy that you wouldn't be put somewhere near the top of the pay scales upon check-out. To me, it's reasonable to start at the bottom and work your way up like everyone else.

The Crimson Fruitbat

17th Jul 2002, 02:52

I totally agree with BOTH your posts. However at some of the ACC's NOT mentioned there is LOTS of overtime (depending on your sector/specialty) needless to say those sectors/specialties have lower check out rates etc.

I was only quoting the max possible as I quoted the minimum (no overtime bottom increment). I provided all the math for people to work out that IT IS a lot of work to max out. If people don't want O/T they can take the 100K a year in years 11 plus and enjoy it!! And, 50%+ of the staff are not "spring chickens" so they are gone within 10 years.

If you want to know where I am email me

Hows life in YWG hot I'll bet!

YWG ATC

17th Jul 2002, 03:25

Trust me, in Winnipeg I know all about lots of overtime. It's absurd the staffing situation here, but that's a whole other issue. As for my previous post, I didn't mean to imply that you were tricking people on what controllers earn, I just think that when asked "how much do you make?" that base salary is only answer. In your example you give the figures for a maxed out YZ controller and they don't have the option of maxing out any more (from what my friends there are telling me). If he/she doesn't work 10 days in a month, then he/she won't get the OFP either. All your left with is base salary. Why the big secret about where your at? Hmmm... I'll guess Edmonton and you can e-mail me if I'm wrong.

Life in WG is anything but HOT (that's why I'm at home in front of a computer and not somewhere else), unless you're referring to the temperature/humidity, in which case, yes it's hot. :p

The Crimson Fruitbat

17th Jul 2002, 03:59

Yeah I was talking about the weather! :D :cool:

I agree with you completely once again reference pay, but if YVR and YYZ are fully staffed and others are maxed out? How long will this situation last?

The CATCA website ( www.catca.ca ) makes referance to "the aging " work force and the current "problems" with staffing.

Its a known fact that the Americans, Brits, and mainland Europeans are also going to lose 30 to 60% of their workforce through retirement before 2010. In the American case they have tabled it in Congress and are talking 5,000+.

To keep it alive in the interim we need some attractive pay to attract the RIGHT young new entrants that the industry needs; keep throwing good $$ at the old farts to keep them in until the young ones are recruited/trained; and, make the system attractive to trained foreigners like the computer, aerospace, medical industries etc.

The highest bidder wins in the short term!!

EuroATC

17th Jul 2002, 11:35

Well I worked in Toronto ACC, left there about 2 years ago and am now in Geneva Switzerland... In reply to one of my former Canadian collegues, you think not being paid for your experience is fair? So what is your opinion about a Canadian that leaves and then comes back.. does he have to start at the bottom of the scale? Do you realize Canada is the only place hiring expats who does not recognize your experience?

As for the person posting salaries.. NO ONE I REPEAT NO ONE these days in Toronto ACC is maxing out on overtime. It is very misleading to write what you did. Even in the "good" days, only 10% or less were making that type of money. The average salary you can expect to make in Canada working at highest paid ACC is 100.000.

Proceed As Cleared

17th Jul 2002, 15:59

Working overtime being part of the "culture" is at least problematic, since an ATC employer does not urgently have to hire additional staff.
It would be different, if the consequence of a staff shortage would be closed sectors and therefore less capacity, which would put more pressure on the employer.

Working 9 on 1 off is simply irresponsible.

YWG ATC

17th Jul 2002, 18:56

EuroATC - Do I think not being paid for your experience is fair? What I do think is that everyone starting an ATC career for Nav Canada, regardless of past experience, be that ATC elsewhere, pilot experience, tower, or FSS, has to start off at the bottom and has to work their way up. It applies to everyone equally across the board, and I think that's fair. Where on the ATC application form does it say "Salary commsurate with experience" or something to that effect? I didn't know that Canada was the only country that does not pay you for your experience, I've never had a reason to know that. However, I would think that someone who's looking to come to Canada would know this information before they received their first pay cheque. Therefore, if they don't like the offer, stay put.

Do I think that someone should be able take off for greener pastures, get there and find out that maybe it wasn't as grand as one thought, that they should be able to come back a few years later and pick up right where they left off? No.

ex-EGLL

17th Jul 2002, 19:21

Ahhhhhhh, the good old days, when I left the UK and applied for YYZ ACC, I was asked at the interview what increment I felt I should start at to reflect previous experience (I was expecting to start at the first), not only did they start me at 4th increment, they applied it from day 1, not after check-out!! Gues I was lucky there!!:)

EuroATC

17th Jul 2002, 19:26

Mr Ywg, first, I agree, a kid, an FSS, someone with zero ATC experience should start at the bottom. As for foreigners coming to work for NavCAn, there is a different deal for everyone, and NavCan makes that very clear, their policy is that there is no policy. The only real policy they have is that if you leave and come back you start at base which is meant to be punitive and discourage others from leaving.

You think all the ones that left Canada for other place "left for greener pastures" Come wake up, NavCanada is a good place to work, some might not agree but you are judging those that left with your statement. Don't judge people. I left to experience something new, to work in a busier ATC unit and to challenge myself. I did that, I didn't leave because the grass was greener somewhere else because it isn't.

Now I have a question for you, are you one that works 9 days on and 1 off whenever you can? You guys should be carefull, CATCA complains about staffing and the lack of it but then people like yourself think that an air traffic controller from another country with let's say 10 years experience should be paid the same as a guy who just checked out??? Come on... Open your eyes a little.

EuroATC

17th Jul 2002, 19:28

Thanks for proving my point :)
Where do you work now? Email me

Proceed As Cleared

17th Jul 2002, 21:21

I totally agree with EuroATC.

There's various reasons why I would never join NavCanada:

No penal rates (except for the 9$ between certain hours, a bloody joke BTW!).

Working overtime being part of the job.

Working up to 9 days in a row (absolutely unthinkable!).

Previous experience not being acknowledged (totally out of date compared to other ATC providers, who employ expats on a bigger scale!).

And BTW, if I went back to where I've worked before, I would get paid what I used to earn when I left!

YWG ATC

17th Jul 2002, 21:43

EuroATC - I think ex-EGLL proved your point wrong. You say that Nav Can doesn't honour previous experience and they should, he's saying, and proving, they do. I'm saying, I have no idea what Nav Can does and doesn't offer controllers from other places who want to work in Canada as I have no reason to know, and to be truthful, I don't care. You asked if I thought it was fair, and if it's applied to everyone the same (ie everyone at the bottom), then, yes, I think it's fair. Is it right? Don't know, don't care. But since this appears to not be the case, this whole debate is pointless.

I do think that everyone who leaves here for other places left for "greener pastures", why else would they leave? People make these sorts of changes in their lives because they want something better and more fulfilling, I use the term "greener pastures" you can call it whatever you like. These seem to be the same reasons why you moved on. Now that you've been there for some time, perhaps the novelty of being in Europe has worn off, maybe you're home sick, miss family and friends, miss check-out parties at Norma Jeans (I too used to work in YZ ;) ). I certainly wasn't trying to judge you, and if that's how I came across, I offer an apology to you and the others I've offended.

As for overtime, I work what is assigned to me. I don't take call ins. I have call-display, and don't answer the phone if it's work calling. That being said, there are people here to do work as much overtime as possible. As much as I don't agree with it, it's their life, not mine.

This company is in a controller staffing crises (at least in Winnipeg), but instead of staffing us with older controllers, that Nav Canada can lure from other places, who are 10 years from retirement , I'd rather see us hire good local kids that will be here for the long term.

Proceed As Cleared - you also help my point, you don't like the terms, so you're not applying. I'm sure it's our loss :)

Scott Voigt

17th Jul 2002, 21:54

In the US for the most part, if you hire into the agency as a controller, unless you hire in from the military after holding a controller job as a civilian. You start out at the bottom and it doesn't matter how much experience that you have...

regards

YWG ATC

17th Jul 2002, 22:01

Scott, if I may ask, do you think this is fair?

Proceed As Cleared

17th Jul 2002, 22:05

Well, Scott, since the FAA doesn't hire any expats anyway, were there ever any experienced controllers (except for military) this "starting-at-the-bottom-rule" would have applied to??

Stomper

19th Jul 2002, 23:25

FRUITBAT

Tell me if this is wrong. There is no AI-05 salary step at $82,000. There is $80696 or $83,173. Top increment is $90,582. Then there is the centre pay which is $8,990 for Edmonton. AND you can't spell.

:mad:

The Crimson Fruitbat

20th Jul 2002, 00:20

As I wrote:
Toronto ACC 1st increment: $82K Canadian (Ai-05-Operational+YZ OFP)

Its actually $82,282

Its Toronto's OFP as part of the calculation and has nothing to do with Edmonton.

Stomper

20th Jul 2002, 02:00

Fruitbat!

You are one rude bastard. Couldn't you get work in OZ? Or did your last employer sack you? Either your employer is posting incorrect information to potential applicants or you are sucking on too many beers. From what information I received, there is only one AI-05 pay scale. If general politeness is a characteristic of Canadian children then wise up.

The Crimson Fruitbat

20th Jul 2002, 02:14

Don't get so worked up its not good for your health - close eyes and breath deeply or have a valium and a little lie down. I was posting accurate information to promote discussion and you for some reason wish to take me to task for it from your first response(??). However, I did proceed to wind you up but I didn't think you'd freakin "lose it" - sorry about that (I have edited all my posts).

Ai-05-Operational+YZ OFP
Ai-05-Operational (bottom increment = $65, 876) + YZ OFP ($16,406) = $82,282

There are THREE Ai-05 pay scales: Operational, Non-operational and Supervisory.

I am not going to respond any more on this topic, nevertheless, good luck with your applications the more staff the better.

Good night

Scott Voigt

20th Jul 2002, 04:54

Actually, since I knew what the pay scales were prior to hiring up, I find it fair. No one cheated me, I knew what I was getting into prior to signing up...

regards

canberra

20th Jul 2002, 12:38

canada, where i experienced the same temperature in celsius and fahrenheit for those of you who dont know thats -40! canada where you can drive 100 miles and see one car, unlike britain where we can drive 1 mile and see a hundred. no im not knocking the place just remember that even though they speak english(except for quebec) and have the same head of state as us its not quite the same as the uk . though in the main i found them to be more polite than us, but i was annoyed not to see a mountie in a red coat! the red jacket is for ceremonial only, unlike what the guy in due south wears!

son of koko

21st Jul 2002, 18:33

Stomper, e-mail me at my profile; I should be able to help you out.

1261

22nd Jul 2002, 08:15

Scott; out of interest - how do you and your colleagues in the US view NavCanada?

Scott Voigt

23rd Jul 2002, 02:38

1261;

I can just go by what some of our friends to the north have said about NAV Canada. Probably over half of the folks that we have talked with would leave NAV Canada if given a chance. They are not at all happy with thier employer...

regards

BAeBulldog

23rd Jul 2002, 05:38

Having made the move across the Pond myself, admittedly in search of a better standard of living, I find I haven't been disappointed. Even having taken a pay cut, I have been pleased with how far my GBPs went at first. And the whole cost of living out here in Canada is SO much cheaper.:p So definately NO regrets.
But one thing NATS and NavCanada have in common : Privatisation= the end of the good 'ole days, lack of funding and extremely disgruntled and disillusioned employees.
I am amazed with how many similarities there are between the 2 companies, so for all you would be ship jumpers..........make sure the reason for your desire to move over is for quality of life outside of work, and expect much of the same AT work:rolleyes:

noknead

24th Jul 2002, 12:18

I'm reading all these items with interest. I downloaded the agreement (thanks Beldin) and have been through quite a bit of it. It looks like our old agreement from days gone by in Australia pre EBA. Could someone please help me out and explain a couple of things?
1. What exactly is the difference between an "Operating" and "Non-Operating" employee.:confused:
2. Can someone please translate the different Classifications (AI-01 to AI-05)? I don't have Article 32 (or whatever it is) handy for a quick reference:(
I am a looking to move north and I need as much info as I can get.

Thanks

ex-EGLL

24th Jul 2002, 13:01

Operating emplyees are:
Air Traffic Controllers (and Controllers in training) in Centres, Towers and Terminal units.

Team and shift supervisors in Centres, Towers and Terminal units

Data Systems Co-Ordinators (DSC)

Unit Operations Specialists in Towers.

So by exclusion Non-OPS are the rest, e.g. Instructors at the National School, Specialists at Head Office, Unit Operations Officers at Centres.

Basically (with the exception of DSC's), if you speak to real planes you are operational.

Grades:

AI00 is a training grade
AI01 quiet towers
AI02 less quiet towers
AI03 "normal" towers
AI04 busier towers
AI05 All centres, Ottawa Terminal Unit busy towers (YVR, YYC,YYZ,YUL)

Hope that Helps

ex-EGLL