Stuff in Sunday Mirror

[All Systems Go]

Hi folks. A question about pay. The lady who has written the article in the Sunday Mirror stated that she was on £35k. Is that possible? With 7 years experience, shift pay, training pay and the travelling benifits, is it possible to be earning £35k? Looking at the pay scales it's not possible by a very long chalk. Could someone explain to me where this figure comes from? I know it's a moot point, but its interesting to me and my engineering chums cos with 7 years experience, even on the lowest engineering grade, your on about £34k (I'm on £31,500 with nearly 3 years in as well as shift pay and all that stuff). Don't bite my head off cos it's only a question.

cheers.

A link to the Sunday mirror article if you will...

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/homepage/news/page.cfm?objectid=11994201&method=sm_full&siteid=81959

Ta daaaaaa!!!!

[radar707]

Pay scales are all wrong, a newly valid atco3 gets about 32K inc UHP.
So 7 years of experience would put her a lot higher up the scale
Not being at Swanwick, I don't know if she exists, but the way it reads to me is more like a fairy story made up around newspaper articles.
But then again, I might be wrong

[Exel]

1 word........................NET ...............Now do the sums ?

[foo fighting]

thought the union said don't talk to the press ?

[radar707]

Exel, mathematics was never one of my greatest subjects, but nowhere in the article does it mention NET salary, and I for one when asked what I earn give the gross figure.
Does anybody actually know her?

[HounslowHarry]

You boys and girls are showing your ignorance now.

Sarah Carey is the Prospect ATCOs' Branch Secretary and is an experienced ATCO at Swanwick. (you may know her as Sarah Jackson).

The article is very well informed and represents ATCO interests well.

You may find several more appearing like this, mainly because with the recent talk of Airmisses, Danger Areas, Uncompliant pilots, and strike action in Europe, people are quite rightly interested in us again. Long may thet survive.

[All Systems Go]

That may be so HH, but does it accuratly represent her earnings? I'm asking cos if she stretched the truth on something like this, then what else has she stretched the truth on? The general public will believe anything that is in black and white on a tabloid newspaper. I know what sort of job you ATCOs do, and I have the upmost respect for you. I could never do your job, nor would I probably want to. Especially for £35k Gross. So, is there any way, as an experienced ATCO, she could earn £35k gross?

[AREA52]

ASG

With all due respect, whatever Sarah stated as her earnings, NET or otherwise. Isn't it about time that somebody redressed the balance and dismissed the myth that management would like the public to believe. At every opportunity, it is said that UK ATCO's earn around 60k a year. There is no mention of the fact that this figure is based on a veteran controller with at least 13 years operational experience, and would have to work in a busy ATCO2 station. Unless of course you are non-op, or not capable of controlling real aeroplanes, in which case you are rewarded with better pay and possibly a management job. :rolleyes:

About time Stansted was regraded up to ATCO 2 and I don't even work there!

The reality is that operational ATCO's earn between about 30k and 64k (at ATCO 1 level), including shift pay.

I for one, applaud Sarah for having the balls as a union rep to stand up and tell it like it is at most of NATS units, and not only for the controllers.

I would also expect that the public would now assume that average pay is somewhere between the two figures, which is more realistic.

Time for senior management's at certain units to watch for the size ten that is about to volley them to where they belong! :eek:

We should all be looking for better than is currently on offer from this new "private" company!:mad:

[AREA52]

And another thing!

I know that Sarah was "misquoted" on a couple of items, I do not know what exactly yet, but I am sure they will be the "mistruths" to which you are referring.

Regards

AREA 52:)

[160to4DME]

Whilst we're on about earnings and staffing, I believe that at MACC alone, 8 people have applied to NavCan, 1 has already has an assessment and 2 others are about to go over for theirs.

Hello management, are ANY alarm bells ringing yet ?????

memo to all: insufficient staff forecast for sector reorganisations planned.

160

[with alacrity]

The article describes a working shift pattern as AAOMMNN.
Iwas under the impression that Swanwick worked MMAANN.
Am I wrong or is the newspaper printing inaccurate information?

[Asda]

As of today Swanwick is working AAOMMNN. There seems to be some confusion about what happens in October when there may be a change to the other pattern.

[Lieutenant Dan]

Just a side issue about the article. Maybe she was misquoted, but I'm starting to feel really sorry for the trainee who was involved with the u/s training box air-miss.

We all screwed up now and again as trainees, but to have it shoved in your face by the press, and then have a Prospect union rep be quoted as saying you almost caused a collision, is not good.

If that trainee was me, I'd be looking elsewhere for employment.
Give the guy/girl a break.

[Vercingetorix]

Sarah sounds awfully precious.

[sector8dear]

AREA52 (and all ATCOs come to that), just a small point, but management (I presume you mean non-ATCO) pay is about half that of ATCO pay unless you mean the very small number of people eg DGMs etc. The banded MSG structure pays considerably less than ATCO as is demonstrated where a post is advertised as not exclusively ATCO and the pay is up to c £60K for the ATCO candidate and around £42K or less if a non-operational candidate is successful.

Your attitude is so sadly typical of controllers - totally dismissive and insulting about anyone who is not an ATCO. I expect you disrespect your doctor because he can't controll aircraft.....

Yes the ATCOs do have a point, for goodness sake don't ruin it by your petty, big headed and insulting attitude to other NATS staff who support you, both in the work they do (I doubt you can write computer code) and in your basic desire for fair treatment.

[Cuddles]

S8D

If you're correct, and most of Management only get paid 2/3 of what we *could* earn, that's probably because we've got too many of them.

I could name names, but I won't.

[Minesapint]

Compare MSG1 with ATCO2. There is not much difference in basic. The MSG wont get UHP though although some do get 25% UHP or SDA. For MSG2 its pathetic.....

[Spitoon]

I guess you'll be the same sector8dear whose only contribution to the sometimes interestingly argued nine page 'Are controllers grossly underpaid?' thread was 'no'.

[Greebson]

Sector 8

Just a little point:), as you hold a great deal of your fellow staff in contempt, perhaps you should take your less than considerable talents to another outfit worthy of you.:mad: :mad:

[1261]

Impossible, as we are the only major ATC provider to employ supernumary staff.....

[sector8dear]

Greebson, it's far from contempt, on the contrary I have the greatest respect for those who 'do the job' and earn the money. As we have seen tragically these last few days the consequences of a mistake are utterly unthinkable and the responsibility almost unmeasurable.

Which is why I fail to understand why certain (by no means all) alledged ATCO posters to this forum need to belittle non-oprational staff as a way of justifying their own case. The ATCO case is self evident to any sane person without this attitude. Can't speak for the "suits" but those in NATS who support the operation (engineers, ATSAs, MSGs) do their job with responsibility and commitment. Yes you guys are the front end but there is much behind the scenes that make it possible for you to exercise the privilege of your licence.

Incidentally I would also not dispute that we have too much management. Unfortunately the MSG grade is all encompassing and perhaps the M for management is slightly misleading as everyone who is not an engineer or ATSA seems to be an MSG now.

Finally, no I don't think controllers are grossly underpaid BUT I do think that they have fallen behind their equivalents in other countries and I do think the ATCO2 scale in particular is too long - there is much to be said for "same responsibility = same pay" I feel, although the initial cost would be high.

[radar707]

S8D, I'm a little confused about your belief that we as ATCO's belittle our ATSA and Engineer colleagues, yes, we are at the sharp end of things and have a lot of responsibility, but we CANNOT do our job efficiently without the suport of the assistants or the engineers.
I don't know one single ATCO who has anyhting but the utmost respect for the jobs that our support staff do, granted there are personality conflicts, but that's bound to happen.
I for one am grateful for the help and advice I've got from people who whilst they are not at the sharp end of the RT, have a wealth of experience to offer and I am grateful that in the 10 years I've been doing this job, they have felt able to offer their advice and help.

[All Systems Go]

As we at the blunt end have a great deal of respect for you and yours 707. Indeed if we were clever enough (or clever in the right way if you prefer) then we'd be doing your job. And before anyone snaps my hand off it takes different skills to be an ATCO just as it does to be an engineer or chocolate teapot... errr... I meant manager. I know I couldn't do the job of an ATCO, and 90% of the ATCOs might admit that they couln't do my job. we all need to get over this god awful attitude that seems to be there. The "them and us" one. Were all getting screwed twice by management in the same way, and all this in-fighting is helping our friends whose job it is to ruin and rule us. We need to get our voices together costhen maybe we can get something done. Ok, I pass the soap box. As for pay? Well, these e-mails I keep getting from someone who I've never heard of telling me they had yet another meeting to discuss something seem somewhat pointless. Who cares if the union wasters and management lot have had yet another round of cucumber sandwhiches? We want results, not excuses. It would be nice if the minutes from one of these "positive" meetings were published so we could see where our union dues are going and also when our pay deal is going to get agreed. I know it's not ours in the sense of mine as an engineer, but it will affect all of us when it eventually comes. And yes, I'm still sore I forgot to vote. Lets hope we hear something useful soon.

[Goldfish Watcher]

Compare MSG1 with ATCO2. There is not much difference in basic. The MSG wont get UHP though although some do get 25% UHP or SDA. For MSG2 its pathetic.....

What a shame.. If they want to work weekends and nights, then I would have no problem with them earning UHP :p


I think the 'them and us' thing is getting a bit out of hand - all staff who keep the units working should show some solidarity - ATCOs, engineers, computer boffs, the folk that clean up in the ops room after us messy atcos -

- its the office wallers that get on my t*ts. The ones who growl at you when you dare invade their territory and look down at anyone who doesnt come to work in a Burton suit and polyester tie!

[Iron City]

OOOOOOH Polyester tie. How '70s!!!

[160to4DME]

Now now, there's a charming lady who wears delighful polyester skirts at our unit.
You should see the sparks as she clicks her heels :D :D :D

160

[FWA NATCA]

Ask any pilot who has had their bacon pulled out of the fire by the quick actions of a controller, or ask the pilot who was lost and recieved help from a controller, or ask the pilot who lost his engine/s, or instruments in IFR conditions and was guided to a safe landing by a controller, (etc.) if controllers are over paid.

We may sit there in front of our scopes or up in the tower sounding board, or we may sound as if we aren't doing much, but when things are going bad, the controller is there to safely help the pilot through what ever situation they find themselves in.

Mike
FWA

[radar707]

FWA, you've hit the nail on the head, as I've saidf in posts on earlier threads, a pilot earns his / her moneyt when things go wrong, but what's the first thing they do???
reach for a manual, or ask the computer!!
When things go wrong for an ATCO, be it a separation problem, or an emegency then we have no manual to reach for, we've got to deal with the situation there and then. I've been sat on radar at EGPF and had to deal with 3 emergencies at the same time, no book can tell me what to do, I've got to deal with it and deal with it I do, that's my job, it's what I do, I don't want praise from the public, I don't want thanks from the aircrew (although it would be nice occasionally), I want to be valued for what I do, is that unreasonable???

[sector8dear]

Hope I did manage to clarify my views a bit in the last post . However I am curious (no names of course - I mean it!) exactly which "office wallers" do you guys feel are of no use? Who growls at you? OROs or who? What do they do, and can it be done without?

It's not that I disbelieve you, I just don't know anyone (or department) who behaves in this way but I guess they may exist.

If this is really a problem, then with due care and tact, perhaps we should indicate which area(s) this problem is in - in the hope that some constructive discussion and changes may ensue.

R707, I am also a little confused as to where the line is drawn between those whose contribution is of use and those whose contribution is not? Is the person who processes your T&RE of use? Is the NSS (as was) software engineer of use? Are the guys who ensure that the LTCC building is safe and functioning of use? Are SDI of any use? (Oops I know that one) I just don't (as above) quite understand who is "swinging the lead", but perhaps I don't have enough exposure to NATS in general.

These are honest questions, I am not being cynical or trying to be controversial, I genuinely don't know who we mean!

[All Systems Go]

S8D:

I think in one breath some of the posters mean everyone who isn't an ATCO (I can hear the war drum beating to that comment...), and then in the next breath the person who sits there in a suit deciding our future with no real risk to themselves or their job. It has to be said that 99% of the people who inhabit the centers (can't comment for the airports or other places such a Spectrum House or 1KS) do have a useful function. Maybe we're at a loss to know what that function is, but they still have a purpose. A small anecdote comes to mind from one of those god awful management lectuers I used to have to go to. A janitor was sweeping the floors at the Kenedy Space center and a top manager asks him what he does there. He points to the space shuttle and says "help that thing get in the air". Bottom line is most of us have a useful function. It all depends on your job role as to what and who you think are useful.

[FWA NATCA]

Radar 707,

I actually had the pilot from a recent emergency stop by the facility and insisted that the supervisor allow him to thank me personnally for saving his and his passengers lives. I was awed and impressed that he took the time to stop by, because it was only the second time this has happened in 17 years.

Mike
FWA

[AREA52]

Dear S8D,

I have not been on PPRUNE for a few days and have therefore not had a chance to read your sadly typical non-ATCO reply, which unfortunately jumps the gun as usual.

I made no reference at all to people who work outside the ATCO structure apart from the fact that we should all be looking for a decent rise. Unfortunately, if the vast majority of the other branches vote for a poor pay deal, what can they expect.

You also assumed wrongly that I was referring to management jobs in the MSG grade. I am referring to the many ATCO graded management posts, or non op jobs which progress quicker than an operational controllers salary, is that fair?

I for one know a lot of people inside NATS who are not ATCO's and have the utmost respect for the jobs that they do, however, their job or salary structure was not the topic of discussion.

Perhaps next time you should ensure that you read the article in the context within which it is written before you get on your high horse and start tarring everyone with the same "big headed ATCO" brush that you appear to be wielding.

I don't suppose an apology will be forthcoming though:p

[Minesapint]

FWA NATCA,

So was the firefighter putting his life at risk pulling smokies from wreckage. So was the radar tech/radio tech/lighting tech etc etc etc etc that was up all night fixing testing and repairing. Its a team thing you know?:D :cool:

[Goldfish Watcher]

S8D

let me clarify then....And Im sorry but I can only comment on Swanwick;

I dont' doubt for a minute that everyone at the unit has an important job to do and Im not knocking any support staff here. For a start, there are a lot of desks in Swanwick I have never been to - so Im not going to suggest that the occupants of those little corners of the world (so nicely decorated with posters, pictures and other paraphanalia completely unrelated to the job in hand) are not providing some important function.

So, now that the disclaimer is out of the way - Im sure we all remember the lovely welome to Swanwick pack which contained the nice letter which effectively said
"the place is going live, but please don't spoil our lovely working environment with your nasty operational staff attitudes"

Instant them and us attitude.

There are those in the building who still harbour these feelings. Take, for example, the personnel office - there is at least one member of staff in there who reacts to everything like it is a major problem or that ATCOs/ATSAs are just trying to cause bother. There is another member of staff who has been most helpful and understanding whenever I have been in with a query - I wonder if that person is new to working with operational staff?

There are plenty other examples, but my post is getting long enough as it is.

Just one more point - does anyone else think that 2 librarians is a bit much in that size of place? and what do they do all day? I've only ever seen them eating sandwiches at their desk and looking hard done by when I ask for a new MATS part 2 CD.

[FWA NATCA]

Minesapint,

Our AF Techs don't work nights, weekends, or holidays, so unless it's an urgently needed repair they won't come in to fix anything that breaks.

But on the note of TEAMWORK, never have I seen a better example of TEAMWORK than at the EAA Air Venture Show that is held in OSH (Oshkosh Wisconsin) every July. Every controller, AF Tech, and AFSS person that works during that show has put the letter "T" in Teamwork.

Mike R
FWA

Oshkosh bound again

[Hairy Badger]

Goldfish Watcher

But Lisa and Nikki are nice to look at, or are all those middle aged man really there to read the papers

[All Systems Go]

I agree HB. Much better than not having them.