Prospect ballot

[ContactLondon]

Anyone know the result???

[IThink]

Look in NATS

[hatsoff]

Is the NATS Forum working?
It's not for me! Have I been banned?

[IThink]

From the BBC:
".....rejected on Friday by 1172 votes to 274, with a turnout of 72% by the union Prospect."

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

What concerns me is the statement in the media that we have rejected a 6% pay rise... no mention of it being over 2 years. I wonder which clown issued the press statement?

[hatsoff]

Thanks for the info.
Here's the link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_2044000/2044825.stm

[foo fighting]

does anyone know if the figures above are for the atco branch vote or for all Prospect members ?

[NATS_Not_Funny]

So 1172 for, 274 against is a total of 1446 votes cast. If this is 72% turnout that means that there were 2008 people eligible to vote. I thought NATS employed more ATCOs than that - the website says 5500 people in total.

I assume that thse results were for the ATCO's only. Does anyone know the results for the other disciplines?

[Over+Out]

I hope that the Airline Group also see this as a vote of No Confidence in NATS Management by the ATCO's.

[spikie]

I was under the impression we were voting in a consultative ballot whether to accept the deal or not. So, if we have unanimously voted against this offer can someone please explain Prospect's supposed statement that we will not go on strike.!!

[Asda]

Be careful what you're reading. Prospect haven't made any statement regarding industrial action. What was reported was that:

"Nats was "heartened" to learn that no industrial action was being planned by the controllers' union Prospects." Now the only reason it isn't being planned at this very moment is because of the point made earlier - there hasn't been a ballot on industrial action yet, that comes next, unless management start some constructive negotiations. There has to be a vote to have industrial action. If a vote for industrial action is successful then 'Plans' will be made.

The press very often get it wrong, probably unintentionally, but either way its hard to believe this:

"A Nats spokesman said members had "overwhelmingly" voted in favour of the pay offer. " from the BBC! The BBC news bulletin also again failed to mention that the pay deal was for 6% over TWO years. Grief.

[Greebson]

Why is it that it seems to take us so long to go out, whereas tube workers/train drivers and just about anybody else that wants to go out seem to manage it a lot quicker? are there seperate labour laws for air traffickers?

[OrsonCart]

SHOCKING IF ONLY 72% ACTUALLY VOTED

[250 kts]

Agree with you Orson, but I think there are quite a few who deliberately abstained rather than couldn't be bothered.

I suspect the BEC will give NATS a week to react and come up with a better offer and if nothing is put forward then the ballot for industrial action will begin. Members were made perfectly aware of what the possible consequencies of a "no" vote were and maybe will now have to put the threat into reality.

It's vitally important that Prospect get the PR machine up and running as NATS will try every trick in the book to make us the bad boys(and girls).

The time has now come to burn the over dry powder!!

:( :(

[Fallows]

I am one of those who voted No to the pay rise. I feel though it is a shame that we did not have the same unity and resolution in considering the possibility of strike action over, in my opinion more important issues, namely Privatisation, Threats to the pension fund, Lack of staff at Swanwick(in particular), and I am sure that colleagues could think of other issues which are more important than a few percentage points on the pay scale.
Our colleagues in the remainder of Europe are perhaps showing the way forward for us by their actions next week.

[160to4DME]

Orson

I mentioned in the NATS forum that there was word a couple of mornings ago, at least at MACC, that some ballot papers appear to have got lost whilst on their way out to the members. Strangely, the people missing ballot papers were members who used their work address for union correspondence.

160 the cynic

[Bombay Bad Boy]

Top Dog Rupert's Email was telling us how people like Virgin aint getting a pay-rise ! and theres no more money available. Well does anybody know :

1) What pay rises the other airlines have got ?

2) What actually is the salary of some of our European partners, ie Euro Control etc ?


My feeling is that management isnt gonna move on this one. They will be relying on the union to crumble. On the other hand, we may get the offer of a swift couple of fiver's when we all need it most and then like per usual we accept ! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[eyeinthesky]

Well you would think that any union worth its salt would have already done the research into our European colleagues and the major airlines to use as a bargaining chip in the negotiations. They would, I'm sure, be happy to share that information with the members, if not only to ensure that we are not labouring under misapprehensions about where we stand in comparison to others. This would scotch any stories about Spanish controllers earning £100k and retiring with full pension at 50 and so on if they were untrue.

Have you seen any such info?

No, nor have I. But I have all confidence that Prospect have done their homework properly...:p After all, it would surely be adding to that supply of dry powder that we have been stockpiling for so long:rolleyes: ..

[Vlad the Impaler]

The voting figures posted are for ATCO members only. The engineers voted YES in very much the same proportion as we voted NO. :eek:

[fish food]

81% rejected the offer, EXCELLENT!, until someone at work pointed out the arithmetic, which left me feeling somewhat deflated.

Of the total ATCO Branch membership;


58% voted to reject :)

14% voted to accept :(

28% didn't bother to vote :mad:

Forgive me for sounding a bit negative, but only 58%!!!

The term "we blew it" comes to mind.

Rgds
Fish Food

[Liobian]

I've been in this outfit for a long time, now, and must agree with Fallows (above). Also, I think we have only a part of the info. required to make a reasoned decision here, and that Prospect could do a bit more to help us these days. Otherwise, it's the usual case of rumour begetting rumour.

[OrsonCart]

Even if some ballot papers went astray, the shocking poor turn out bodes badly for a vote in favour of industrial action should it get that far.

If the membership cannot unite on a consultative ballot, what hope is there for any support for possible industrial action?

The ATCO's could come out of all of this looking a bit stupid and management will seek every avenue available to divide and conquer.

[Co ordination unaffected]

OK so we've voted no to the pay deal, a step in the right direction at least. If the ballot for strike action comes through (If you get it) here's something to consider.

Let's take a fairly representative NATS controller salary of £38000. If we consider a daily rate of £60 before tax (BT) (Paid for each day, whether working or not)

2.2% of this salary equates to £836 BT.
3.5% equates to £1330 BT.
If strike action was taken to obtain this (albeit small) increase you'd be earning 494 PA extra.

2 days of strike action would dent the pay packet by £120 but you're still winning over the year, and don't forget that you have this money for every consecutive year, and every subsequent pay deal will incorporate a percentage of this increase, so instead of being 'up' by £374, with 20 years service ahead of you, and your pension you're actually fighting for a very large sum of money indeed. 20 - 25000+ in total is a representatve figure.

Think about this very hard if your opposition to strike action is based on short term financial reasons, with figures like this, you can't afford not to ......

[foo fighting]

As the case against the pay offer has been eloquently put in conversations and debate at work up and down the Nats land, would any of the 274 care to put forward a case here for accepting the offer ?

I as one of the 1172 would be extremely interested to see what you have to say on the matter.

[OrsonCart]

Dont blame those who chose for whatever reason to accept the offer, blame those that did not bother to vote!

If was a senoir manager (Which I am not), I would be elated as those who 'dissed' the ballot!

In my view however, staff within NATS are paying for PPP out of their own salaries. I blame the elected Govt for this.

[NATS_Not_Funny]

Co ordination unaffected
Let's take a fairly representative NATS controller salary of £38000. If we consider a daily rate of £60 before tax (BT) (Paid for each day, whether working or not)

2.2% of this salary equates to £836 BT.
3.5% equates to £1330 BT.
If strike action was taken to obtain this (albeit small) increase you'd be earning 494 PA extra.

2 days of strike action would dent the pay packet by £120...

Sorry to disappoint you but you are only paid for the days you work plus holidays.
Roughly, 40 hours gross for 52 weeks per year, using your £38000 figure gives-

£38000 /52 = £730 per week
£730 / 40 = £18.27 per hour.

That equates to about £146 (BT) for an 8 hour (gross) shift.

[foo fighting]

Orson old chap,

not wanting to attach any blame, just want to know why some Nats controllers think that the offer is acceptable.

To back up your point, perhaps some of the " can't be arsed to vote " could explain themselves too - probably one of the most important votes for us but a fair few abstentions. Why ?

[OrsonCart]

It has been said that it is not worth industrial action because any 'real' gains could be marginal.

A period of interrupted salary for those with large mortgages could have serious financial implications.

From my own point of view, if I was to vote for industrial action, I would expect to come out of the negotiations a minimum of 5% better off over the 2 year period than already offered, otherwise I will have wasted my time and money!

I am sick at the thought of staff paying for PPP, which in effect we all are with the current offer, but do you seriously believe the sum offered will be hugely bettered by industrial action?

What needs to take place is a medium term commitment by both sides to improve ATCO salaries, benchmarking against the best world wide ATC providers, retirement to be lowered to 55, hours to be cut to 30 per week. These type of issues I would vote for industrial action, not 1%.

[not a scooby]

Ladies & Gents

To quote " we are dammed if we do & dammed if we don`t"

if prospect now backs off in favour of talks about talks etc, then the message sent to management is keep pushing the troops `cause they will not bite
If we ballot and don`t back action as we all knew would be the outcome of a NO vote first time around, then the result will be the same as above.

I appreciate all the views on rejecting shortermism, if we give in now, then you may as well save your union dues, `cause management will just steamroller us when ever they wish

[120.4]

With 58% voting no, the next step needs to be carefully considered.

An industrial action ballot that gets 58% would not be a sufficiently strong mandate to take the ultimate sanction and if we are thinking industrial action, that has to be in the arsenal. If we did, management would sense weakness and ride it out. Therefore it would be unwise of us even to hold the ballot.

So what leverage do we have left that keeps us within the law?

It is my understanding (but I accept I may be wrong) that across NATS our staffing is significantly below requirements. If true, that is a cost saving to NATS and an additional work burden to us, Unfair. SO far we have been prepared to accept it, but I find myself asking why is it necessary that we continue to do so? Anybody asked if they are prepared to work normally can quite truthfully reply,

"...what has come to be considered 'normal' by management is in fact not consistent with our agreements and explots the workforce..."

and reasonably refuse to work in that vein. (AER LINGUS). Would it be industrial action to refuse to work beyond Scratcoh? No, and it is not industrial action to enforce the local agreements which protect us from the prolonged effects of fatigue caused through staff shortage. We are being exploited.

Management then have a choice. They can accept the validity of the argument and improve their offer or they can themselves precipitate the industrial action which takes that decision out of our hands.

The same goes for other extraneous duties. Why should we continue as LCEs and Examiners? Without LCEs NATS cannot fulfil its obligation under the law and SRG could never do it instead.

To ballot now for industrial action will start an unstoppable ball rolling and a failed strike would be disastrous. Let's exploit what is legitimate: Standard spacing, open the sectors, flow the traffic and give up the early goes.

Point 4
:)

[PH-UKU]

Hold on ye doomsayers ..... If this Govt had been elected with an 82% vote of a 72% turnout, we'd never have heard the end of what a sweeping mandate they had.

I think ATCOs have a very big moral advantage (if the union play it right)....or is it a straight majority of all those eligible to vote that counts ?

BMA got 7% this year BTW

[Undercover]

Well.... "lies, damn lies and statistics" eh...

Now I'm not an ATCO so I have no choice now, I can't strike. Simple as that.
However, if I was I'd be more than a little wary of putting my hand up to walk out the door now. Putting aside the bravado and rhetoric, we all know that more people are willing to say they will strike than actually will. Taking the figure of 58% of ATCOs voting to reject the deal... I'd suggest that a fair percentage of these were of the "Well I think we deserve better but I really don't think it'll go so far as a strike" type... and I'd suggest the majority of those types will not have the stomach for a sustained strike.
If this reduces your battle troops to say.... 35 - 40% of ATCOs I'd say your chances of getting a "Yes" vote for industrial action are pretty poor.
On the other hand, of course, you could put the hard word on those that didn't vote... but again I'd suggest if they wont get off the fence for this vote, they sure as hell wont want to put their heads above the parapet in the big one!!

Management must be pretty chuffed really. As has been said before... If we couldn't muster the courage to strike over PPP then I think anyone who thinks a strike on a few quid (any increase from industrial action would be minimal) is more than a little optimistic.

[Co ordination unaffected]

NNF

I bow to your greater knowledge.

We'd still be ahead of the game after 2 days in donkey jackets though, but only by £202.

The other numbers still stand.

Cheers

[2 six 4]

Undercover - another management line post. The ballot was massively in favour of rejecting the offer. To count non votes as no votes is manipulation of the facts.

We will wait to see the management reaction and if there is not a substantial offer then the ATCOs will be asked to vote on strike action. We will see then what is the will of the majority which is all we can hope for in a democratic union.

[250 kts]

On the subject of the turnout. Don't for get that the students are members and are NOT asked to vote on these issues just as they would not be ballotted on industrial action. With the sizeable numbers that are around the country this would acccount for quite a proportion of the 28% who didn't vote.

OK so the rest of NATS accept the crap offer. There is nothing now to stop NATS from addressing the various sectional claims around the country and recognising that the ATCOs really are worth more than ,say, a librarian (sorry to have chosen you ):) :) .

I have said before that this about much more than pay. There are new WPP negotiations soon to be started and we must draw a line in the sand over many issues-pay is just one of them. Orson you say you wouldn't go out over 1%, but don't you see that this is all cumulative and whatever we gain/lose this year only multiplies for the rest of the time you are employed by NATS. This is why the younger people have the most to gain in this. Although those approaching retirement would surely gain pension wise.

And when this is over we must then put the pressure on to get the pension contributions restarted ASAP. NATS are saving a fortune at present and it's not a situation we want them to get used to.

[Mr A Tis]

Anyone know the result of the PCS ballot which closed the same day.? Seems to be secret - given that the PCS leaders recommended acceptance it would be interesting to know how the boys + girls voted.

[Undercover]

PCS result was 77% in favour of those that voted. Not sure about the turnout.

And as for the old "management line" remarks... this isn't cowboys and indians... it's not as simple as "goodies" and "baddies". Just because it's not what you want to hear doesn't mean it's wrong.

If you want to make this situation work in your favour the first thing you have to do is acknowledge your own weaknesses and decide how best to use your strengths. Fact is, the result, although a clear majority of ATCOs against, doesn't give any cast iron assurance that a proposed walk out would gain the necessary support.

And on the point about the librarian... You're right, a librarian is not worth as much as an ATCO to the company... that's why the librarian isn't on an ATCO pay scale!!!! :rolleyes:

[Over+Out]

If people were paid what they are worth, then the Librarian should be paid alot more than NATS Management!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Greebson]

250

I hope we're not going to be asking for an extra 1 per cent. D0n't talk yourself down.

[OrsonCart]

250kts, I agree with you totally. 1% is cumulative, but I would rather have a couple of increments above the top of all scales made available, and a rise by 2 increments for all staff AND the 6% on offer.

I totally agree that NATS is saving a fortune on not contributing into the pension, but the banks that finance NATS are making their profits from this. So how much are NATS NOT putting into the pension? Anyone know the figures, must be a good margin for our financiers?

I still say retire at 55 and 30 hours per week, and I will vote for a sustained period of industrial action, but not strike action. (I would on the 55 & 30).

Leadership from the union is now VITAL. What does "Industrial action really mean?" Last step is withdrawing labour, but there must be a minefield of legal opportunities to defend a 'point surely'?

The growth of air travel within the UK is dependant upon NATS increasing its capacity, this requires new sectors, new positions and full staff training, plus agreement on changes to the WPP!

One would have to therefore deduce that this will not be happening, legally can we do this?

[rickity]

well thats a first, an ATCO wanting to work longer hours and to join the management team. i.e 2 on 2 off = 4 hour day and most 50 + ATCOs seem to be in management positions

[Undercover]

:D

[250 kts]

Greebson, it wasn't MY 1% it was the one quoted by Orson. I happen to think that we should be pushing for around 5-6% in a one year deal and some sort of progress made in restoring UHP to its previous levels. A major push should also be made as a sectional claim to get the OJTI task recognised financially in a professional manner. Someone mid-scale gets around £3 per hour extra for being an OJTI-remember it's YOUR licence on the line!!!!!!!

Undercover, yes the librarian is on a lower salary but nATS seem intent on having a company wide increase no matter what the job is. Just the same as the whole workforce got the bonus for Swanwick opening.:mad: :mad:

I would suggest that the ATC workforce now start to keep a very close eye on things like flow rates to ensure that you are not overloaded and to ensure that all sectors are split in accordance with the local working practices.

Short Term Pain-----and all that c**p.;) ;)

[Greebson]

250

Apologies, going by your reply you could be me.

[250 kts]

Greeb, I could be you, but looking at your location, I have something to watch on Friday Morning at 0730 and you probably haven't!!;) ;) :p :p ;)

[Spangly]

The ATSAs in the PCS Union voted in favour of the deal. Don't know the exact figures, but it was quite a high percentage.

[Findo]

250kts you forget we folk north of the border always support the underdogs. As the BBC and ITV are speculating who England meet in the final, we feel obliged to lend some support to Brazil.:cool: :cool:

On the matter of pay I am waiting for the Prospect statement following this week's BEC meeting. The newspapers seem to be full of stories of our impending industrial action. It would be nice to hear what is being discussed.

[Mr_Grubby]

Findo

You Sweaty Socks should know all about being underdogs.
Remember Argentina 1978. You really thought you were in with a chance but Ally McCloud new better.

Not bad for such a level headed nation only because you have a chip on each shoulder.

Yours in probable defeat.

Mr Grubby.

[PooDon-FromAbove]

250 kts. Not a bad starting point. However, I want parity with the best paid controllers in Europe, nothing more,nothing less. not that I think that i am a better controller, just an equal!

I have only had one DECENT payrise since joining and that was in the early 80`s, and boy that was a good one. Why did we get it. Because we took industrial action. Since then, I have put up with the odd spine point being removed and/or inflation plus s*d all else. I`ve seen successive CAA/NATS management devalue our profession to the point that it is now considered by them to be just your`average job. They consider that we are overpaid and under worked as it is!! I`ve also got a dry powder mountain the size of Mount Everest just waiting to explode!!!

Anyway, rant over and bring back LHG:) ;) :D
(for the youngsters amongst us wo don`t know what that is, it was the far superior version of UHP which management and union managed to get us to give up!!!!)

[Fallows]

I was told today that the majority of the ATSAs voted No, but were outvoted by the Admin grade staff who were balloted at the same time. Anyone know the truth of this?

[Greebson]

250

Don't worry we get 24 hour tv up here, whatsmore we're not all scots up here.
I don't think now is really the time to build a north/south divide if we want to get anything out of this dispute.
England for the cup!!!!!!!!!!

GRUBS

Just out of interest, how far did we get in the '78 world cup?

[OrsonCart]

Really strange, nearly a week has passed since the close of the consultative ballot, and the only info I get is from this site and the BBC!

I assume my Postie has taken a break to watch the World Cup and my letter from Prospect detailing the ballot results, within which I voted, is still in his bag?

So what was the actual voting figure? I await these results with baited breath. Nothing on atcos.co.uk

I would suggest our European cousins have a far superior voting system.

Now, as I have not had official communication from my union that conducted the ballot about its results, I must assume that either:-

1. My subs are wasted.
2. My union cannot be bothered with my vote.
3. My union subs are being wasted on other projects.
4. My Postie is a lazy git?

I pay a sum of money each month in union subs and it would appear to me that this is being..............Wasted by a union set on growth and not its core membership? Been there, seen it, got shafted in the meantime!

My union morels dictate that a professional trade union must keep its membership fully informed about key events, sadly, I may be asked to vote for industrial action without being fully briefed by my trade union. I am not referring to the reps who do a great job, but the hierarchy of a certain union actually lacking any real prospect! Obviously my near £11.00 per month will not elicit a letter to confirm a ballot result!

Our European cousins meanwhile are demonstrating belief.

Serious rant over.

Our reps, keep up the good work, for yours is the hardest job currently!

[250 kts]

Sorry Greeb,no divide intended.

Orson, not sure which unit you work at,but on every sector at LACC was a copy of the ballot result put out by the BEC vice-chair.

If you're not at LACC then I suggest you hit your unit reps pretty quickly for the info.

[PH-UKU]

Sorry lads, but I was offered 3-1 for Brazil, too good to resist. If I get a result I'll buy Greebs a halfpint. (he gets pissed too easy).;), but only if he agrees to make a cuppa at work !!

[Hedge End Estate Agent]

Anyone know what happned at yesterdays meeting between Prospoct / NATS 'mgt' ?

[Expeditedescent]

Management have refused to offer any more money.

They did however "promise" to address ATCO's concerns and aspirations..............well that's OK then.

Looks like the next step will be the industrial action ballot.

I have been told the outcome from yesterday is on the NATS Intranet.

[Hedge End Estate Agent]

If there's no more money on offer, no one-year deal then there's no choice what to do next.............

I feel ill.

[250 kts]

According to the Prospect circular, NATS have until 11th July to to respond "positively and constructively" to the rejection.

At this time any new offer would be put to the members OR if no progress then the 7 days notice to ballot for action would be served on NATS.

Considerations are a series of 12 hour strikes and the withdrawal of goodwill over extraneous duties.

The latter could cause major problems especially at LACC re the TRUCE table top exercises which must be completed by the end of July.

More importantly Prospect have committed an initial £1 million to the campaign.

The new management knew of theoutstanding sectional claims before the pay round started so it's about time they started to put their hand in the pockets over these issues. It seems the rest of the workforce are happy to accept this crap offer over 2 years so NATS only have to worry about the revenue earners for the next 24 months.

[fish food]

Dear Mr Grubby

Following one of your recent posts and on behalf of a few million of my countrymen, I just thought I'd let you know what the dawn chorus was this morning, just in case you are too far south to hear:

"you're not singing anymore... you're not si-i-i-nging enn-nee more!!!"

(no offence meant to others and no further correspondence on this subject will be entered into!)

:D

[tug3]

Disregard all previous - found what I was looking for at www.prospect.org.uk/news

Strange though that our TU also thinks that 2.2+3.7=6 ???

Am I missing something here or does a combined subscription from ATCOs to the tune of over £0.25 million pa not buy even a single calculator that works properly?

Rgds
T3

[Undercover]

As one smiling sweaty sock I'd like to wish Mr Seaman all the best in his retirement... :D

[Mr_Grubby]

Fish Food & Undercover

No offence intended, I graciously withdraw.

Mr Grubby

[Greebson]

Expedite


Quote: Management have refused to offer any more money.

They did however "promise" to address ATCO's concerns and aspirations

So that'll be the pay then

[Scott Voigt]

Interesting... Over here we read a news article about the meeting between Prospect and NATS and it appeared that Prospect was in no hurry at all to even call for a ballot. In fact, it stated that they didn't want to inconvience the flying public and that they would continue to talk with NATS and probably there would be no call for a ballot on industrial action until about Sept. if there were no movement. Sounds like waiting until all the traffic is done for the season. Is this REALLY TRUE? The paper also made mention that Prospect represents the engineers who voted in favor of the pay offer...

regards

[NATS_Not_Funny]

250 kts
It seems the rest of the workforce are happy to accept this crap offer over 2 years so NATS only have to worry about the revenue earners for the next 24 months.
(Cue "Points of View" voice)
Why oh why oh why do some operational ATCO's think they're the only ones who count?
You are part of a team, ALL of whom contribute to the safe, expeditious movement of air traffic.
Why don't you go out and learn a bit about how things work before spouting such offensive snide remarks.

svoigt
I don't have the figures here, but the majority of the three sections of staff balloted voted to accept the offer. The rules are however that the votes are counted on a section by section basis, and if one section votes "No" the deal is rejected.

As far as I know this is the first time there has been such a level of disagreement between the sections, and a lot of the bad feeling seems to be rooted in the recent move of staff to the new centre at Swanwick.

[250 kts]

I'm not suggesting that the ATCOs are the only ones who count. Only that we are the only section who had the balls to reject this crap offer. On this basis it suggests to me that the rest of the staff are willing to accept it and that therefore we are entitled to persue a bigger rise maybe in the form of the sectional claim.

NNF if you believe that the bad feeling about this offer is purely at Swanwick then you really are out of touch with ATCOs in general.

[tug3]

S Voigt:

Don't suppose you have a link to the article you mention? It'd be interesting reading by the sounds of it.

Rgds
T3

[HounslowHarry]

tug3
you appear to be missing your calculator (and probably something else for that matter)

2.2+3.7=5.9814

pretty close to six i would say

are you one of these people who now that Prospect have done what you want are looking for some other pathetic winge about them?

I hope not. Now is a time for TOTAL soladarity amongst ATCOs.

[All Systems Go]

All

Maybe 1/3 that represents my little part of the empire that voted No know something that you don't. Fair enough ATCOs are the money earners, but they couldn't earn their money without Engineers, Admin and even the cleaners. A point made a few pages ago about an ATCO getting a better pay rise than a librarian isn't fair - are you saying that the librarian doesn't do as much as you? They do, just not the same job. I didn't vote in this pay deal mainly cos I forgot, but also cos my ballot didn't appear, but I think I'd have voted to accept anyway. I'm not a spinless whimp as has been suggested (don't bite mt hand off over the remark). I just can't see how striking for 1% would achieve anything. Various posters have mentioned asking for other bits and bobs - UHP and OJTI type payments. Surely now is also a good time to get those through, not just a few percent.

Undercovers point about the striking was a fair one - how many of the ATCOs that voted yes would actually walk out? And what about the 272 that voted yes to the pay deal? Can you count on them to walk out with you?

I hope there is a positive outcome from the No vote - it means I get more. I'm a little ashamed of both myself and the others in my trade who voted yes, but were not spinless or weak.

[160to4DME]

Please can someone explain to me where the 1% which people are going on about came from ??


I for one voted NO for more than 1%, and as such will walkout if we get the call in the hope of achieving better.

1% ?? If that's the best we can achieve, then management will be laughing all the way to the bank and Prospect will have atleast one less union member.

160

[eyeinthesky]

160 to 4: Hear hear! You just beat me to the same post.

[250 kts]

The 1% was mentioned as an example a few pages ago. I don't think there is anyone who would be happy with 3.2% instead of the 2.2%.

I think I suggested that around 5-6% in a one year deal may just satisfy this year with a commitment to uprate the UHP and OJTI payments in the next pay round.

ASG. You ask about the 272 who voted no. Well they have a responsibility to go with the majority just as I would if the vote had been reversed. Unless you of course are suggesting that these would be refusing to accept any increase that we may gain by taking action.

I believe that well over 70% would be prepared to walk at present at LACC and providing other units are solid then this is a fight we can win.

And by the way why should ALL of the NATS staff be bound by a common pay rise??

[NATS_Not_Funny]

The results were...

YES NO
ATCO Branch 275 1172
ATSS Branch 716 127
PCS 628 18

250 kts I wasn't meaning that only those at Swanwick were affected, nor that all the problems stemmed from the move. What I meant was that the problems with the project, the shifting timescales etc caused major problems throughout the whole organisation. I think, and I have heard others say, that this has been a major contributing factor to the current situation.

Is there an actual figure that the union are asking for? I can't find anyone who knows.

[tug3]

H-H

Thanks for the arithmetic lesson, how could I be so stoopid, Doh!...

As to your other point, I freely admit to being sceptical when it comes to Prospect's ability to represent ATCO's interests effectively. Having only been with NATS and therefore IPMS/Prospect for 6 years, my only experience with TUs prior to this was with UNISON, (nee NALGO), who I found to be fairly effective and who only ever called upon us to walk once, (for one day), which spookily enough resolved the problem in our favour.

As to the BEC's decision to recommend rejection of the offer, this I fully supported and did so on the ballot paper. My feelings of disappointment stemming not from the unit Reps, BEC or Prospect itself, but with those who for whatever reason failed to follow the BEC's advice.

I do however remain sceptical as to Prospect's ability to represent us effectively. This stems from experience of UNISON, the current goverment's links to the TU, (esp 'white collar'), movement and other snippets, for example S.Voigt's most recent post on this thread. I still remain convinced that we, (ATCOs), could be better served in a union of which we make up more than I.5% of its membership and, given that we function in a 'commercial' environment, one which does the same. BALPA, for various reasons, would be my personal prefered choice as I feel more in common with aircrew than I do with, for example, a Forensic Scientist or Nuclear Chemist, etc.

But then thats my opinion and I'll stick to it for the time being, pay my dues, support the Union for the benefit of its members and stand shoulder to shoulder with you at the front gate, should we end up there!

Rgds
T3

[All Systems Go]

Its amazing how when you leave work all the problems seem to just dissapear. I finished an early shift today, dealing with yet more display problems and a couple of line faults that I doubt you ATC types would have been aware of. Now pay is a big thing for all of us. I get paid an awful lot of money for the job I do, but I'm not complaining. I'm not saying I'm, or indeed any other engineer for that matter, is not worth it, cos we are, but I get paid lots of money for the job I do. In the "outside world" I'd be hard pressed to find a job as well paid as the one I currently inhabit. If it wasn't for the ATCOs then I doubt my pay packet would bulge quite the way it does. This said there are times when I'm (and my Engineering brothers and sisters) worth every penny. I wish the engineering third of the Prospect table had voted no. I wish we had to balls to vote no. But at the end of the day if we all walked out who'd care? The management monkeys who see fit to rule our working lives manage us even worse than the ATCOs and ATSAs management cos we don't earn the money. I'm very grateful to the ATCOs for doing what they are doing. You have my total moral support. I know that's not worth much, but I hope you know where I am coming from.

Good luck and I hope you win!!

[NoFlyZone]

250

Student ATCO's DID vote in the ballot (I should know, I'm one), all those I've spoken with since voted no. Don't know where the figures were included in the count though.:confused:

[Not Long Now]

All Systems, thanks very much. Anyone else feel like sticking together. I thought the idea of unions was to support each other, so why if one union doesn't want to agree to an offer do the other 'linked' unions not say "One for all and all that, we'll recommend rejection too...".
Power to the majority and all that, and I still think democracy is a crap idea.