The future of "General Aviation"

[Squeegee Longtail]

10 years ago I was looking for a light a/c (single or twin) to fly around Europe for business, year round.
Now we all know the saying "time to spare, go by air" bla bla, so I was realistic about mission profile, a/c type and equipment, weather limitations etc etc, and came to the conclusion that I either spend $1m minimum or I should go commercial airline.
Well, I went commercial, and it feels like I have spent far too much of the last 10 years in sh1tty airports and on sh1tty airlines due to the routes required.
So here I am again, older, grumpier and less constrained by work schedules, but still needing to travel around Europe.
I have looked around recently at a/c that fit my slightly looser requirement, but still come away feeling like there's nothing to do the job under $1m (Piper Jetprop). There seems to be no investment or incentive.

So, to my question (no, it's not advice on what a/c to get):
What is the future for general aviation in Europe, if it is not as a viable means of transport will it always be something we do just for the hell of it to get "kicks"?

Note: you will always have the diehards who cross oceans in micro lights etc. but I am talking about mortals here!

[Capt Kremmen]

Depends on what you want. I came rather rapidly to the conclusion that the economy and utility of the commercial airlines is rather hard to beat.

On the other hand if you can't stand airports at any price and you've got rather deep pockets and a sensible aircraft (preferable turbine with a reliable three axis auto pilot slaved to a GPS) then, that could be the way to go.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Squeege,

May I suggest that you put your question to the people on the PPL/IR Europe website at PPL/IR Europe - Home (http://www.pplir.org/). They are PPLs who specialise in flying IFR.

The home page of their website opens with the statement: -

'PPL/IR Europe is open to any pilot who is interested in operating light aircraft under IFR in Europe. We now have over 400 members, most of whom are private pilots with current Instrument Ratings, but some members are still working on, or considering, this rating, and a number of commercial and airline pilots are also members.

Most of our members hold British licences but we have members in Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Iceland, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Singapore, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and USA, and a growing number in all these countries fly on FAA licenses'.

So that should give you some idea.

I'm sure with that amount of expertise to hand, someone there will be able to advise you.

I reckon you will be looking at least at perhaps £130,000 worth of aeroplane; (SEP, constant speed de-iced prop, top class avionics, three axis autopilot).

Good luck!

BP.

[Rod1]

What is the future for general aviation in Europe, if it is not as a viable means of transport will it always be something we do just for the hell of it to get "kicks"?

GA is a very wide range. The world aerobatic champion would say aeros, the businessman transport, I am an enthusiast and enjoy long distance VFR touring and visiting obscure locations / islands. To do serious transport you need big money and an IR, that is a very small % of GA.

Rod1

[172driver]

As usual - it depends. If you need airline-style dispatch rates, then yes, the Jetprop is about the entry-level airplane. If you can be a bit more flexible, then there are other options, although none of them 'cheap' (not a word normally used in an aviation context anyway).

In Europe, the mix of WX, regulations and the historic aversion to seeing GA as a means of transport rather than a hobby conspire to make it rather difficult to use a personal airplane as a mode of biz transport. There are people who do, but again, the Jetprop or the Meridian (better) or some twin are really what you need. Pretty much anything below that level and it's 'for the kicks, unless you can be very flexible with your time.

Other than that, there are of course the fractionals (NetJets, etc).

[glendalegoon]

face facts, you want an airplane. don't fool yourself and try to make it make sense, just get an airplane cuz its what you want.

[RatherBeFlying]

There's a ton of SE IFR flown in the US. I've heard that 1/3 of US PPLs have an IFR rating.

Capacity does cost money. A lot depends on how flexible your business meeting schedule is -- and how tightly your non-meeting time is scheduled.

[Bob Upanddown]

I have made many trips that could not have been accomplished, in the same time frame, by any means other than private aircraft.

Flying commercial often means having to stay overnight somewhere you don't want to be because the airlines don't fly at the time you want them to fly. I have saved many days.

However, to match commercial airline reliability, you need a very capable aircraft (Seneca, Baron or King Air perhaps) and you need to be a very competent pilot. The investment required to achieve this, if you are not flying for the love of aviation, would make me think seriously about private charter as an alternative to commercial.

[ChickenHouse]

I spent about 10 years on taking the commercial route and also wasted quite a bit of my lifetime waiting at sh***ty airports for delayed planes or even worse - got shuttled long distances by Taxicab, when flights got cancelled (in my case that was always a matter of airport closing hours due to "noise" reasons ...).

My requirements profile changed a bit, when I had more influence on the places to go. If you have a need for strange locations and want to stay commercial pax, wait for the upcoming renaissance of the regional airlines.

In my view, you don't need heavy equipment like a King or JetProp. You get along pretty far with Beech F33 or even C182s, with some restrictions even 172s will do most of the jobs.

[PaulisHome]

I very successfully flew myself around Europe IFR in a Mooney 201 for a decade or so a number of years ago. It worked very well for about half the year (when BST applied, roughly). Outside of that, you needed to be much more careful due to icing, and the lower availability of open airports when night closed in.

The Mooney was a pretty good platform for it, if you didn't want to spend the money on a different class of aeroplane. But so far as non de-iced SE a/c go, they tend to be well equipped and they are fast and efficient.

Of course, there's a certain frisson to operating SE non deiced a/c IFR and at night.

That was before the low cost airlines though, which I suspect have changed the comparative economics, if that matters to you.

Paul

[Bob Upanddown]

It worked very well for about half the year As would a Cessna 172 if you had time to spare.

Which is why I suggested, for all year round capability, you need a more capable aircraft, as was hinted at by the OP when he said something around $1m......

I don't see that sector of GA changing much in the next 10 years. It is the puddle jumper market that will disappear as owners find paperwork more difficult to comply with, Avgas become too expensive....... Finding a Mooney and flying it around Europe will, I hate to say, be a memory of things past rather than a practical means of travel in the future.

[fujii]

Read the OP.

So, to my question (no, it's not advice on what a/c to get):
What is the future for general aviation in Europe, if it is not as a viable means of transport will it always be something we do just for the hell of it to get "kicks"?

[vandereydt]

without trying to highjack this threat

the question which aircraft is high on my list

my mission-statement is : some long distance fun flying, but within a limited time frame (within Europe) and some business flying, also in Europe, place like Germany, Switzerland, France and Italy
Of course IFR flying

Budget is of course an issue, my company is only small :{

wondering what airplane to look for and wondering whether the GA legidslation within Europe will allow us

Thanks
Ronny

[ChickenHouse]

Go for continuing in a 737 ... GA is something like the current McCarthy era in Europe. You are the bad one, the snobby one, the far-too-rich one, the jealoused and slaughtered one when the revolution comes ...

What about doing a real checklist for your need, then list the requirements following and look for what is left? Like: Europe, fun&business, affordable etc etc ... go for Jet-A1 as Autofuel most probably is not in that performance range, what noise and night restrictions apply for the airfields wanted, short field needed (thing of hot&high in Switzerland) ... My guess - you will end up in a pretty short list and if browsing for planes available on the market starts, I bet there are less then half a dozen machines to look at.

[9 lives]

As a non European, it appears to me that the required fuel is now becoming the dividing line. I was flying in Europe last week. The only airport which sold the required 100LL was a 40 minute flight from home base. The landing fee at that airport, was about half the cost of filling my 150 here at home. I did not buy the fuel for the plane, so I have no idea of it's cost!

Chicken and egg, I see the core of GA aircraft (the single Cessnas and Pipers) declining, so it now gets even more divided to Jet fuel or mogas burners. If GA in Europe is not declining, it's at least becoming a lot more compartmentalized by type....

[Capt Kremmen]

The future of GA in Europe ?

Farm Strips. Rotax. Mogas. Permit.

[Rod1]

"The future of GA in Europe ?

Farm Strips. Rotax. Mogas. Permit. "

Whilst I agree that this is going to get more and more important and I regularly tour Europe, am based on a strip and my aircraft is powered by a Rotax, it is however important that we do not actively damage other forms of GA. If all the VFR aircraft move out of IFR capable airfields the remaining IFR GA aircraft will suffer crippling costs.

Rod1

[Capt Kremmen]

It seems to me that IFR GA capable a/c are pretty much a minority. And the costs of using airways ? Does anyone know ?

[Less Hair]

If you can go lowcost and legacy that's the cheapest and easiest way to go.

But if you travel to more remote places where a small a/c can get to straight, GA has more advantages. The same goes for southern Europe with more modest weather (but expensive fuel).

If you work hard for your job during the days you cannot fly safe early mornings and late evenings at the same time yourself.

[Jan Olieslagers]

It seems to me that IFR GA capable a/c are pretty much a minority.

They are perhaps, yes - yet Rod1 is right. Those owners/operators/pilots are under much increasing pressure, given the sharp raise of rates at commercial airports (often cleverly disguised as 'mandatory handling') which itself follows from the success of so-called low-cost airlines. They have less and less aerodromes available, at more or less bearable cost.

We (owners/operators/pilots of less impressive planes, like Rod1 and myself) would be short-sightedly stupid to disregard their problem - what happens to them today may well happen to us tomorrow. And even if their needs and issues are not the same as ours, they are our "nearest of kin" so we do should share their concerns.

[ChickenHouse]

The future of GA in Europe ?
Permit. maybe
Mogas.Times for MOGAS are almost gone, as the ethanol-free autofuel vanishes due to the ecoterrorists mixture found for cars nowadays
Rotax. that's current, what the future brings - ???
Farm Strips. definitley not, mainly because major EU governing countries don't allow that kind of field ...

[Rod1]

No for the first time I find almost nothing in common with you:ugh:

"The future of GA in Europe ?
Permit. maybe

"Mogas.Times for MOGAS are almost gone, as the ethanol-free autofuel vanishes due to the ecoterrorists mixture found for cars nowadays"

Zero issue - some EASA aircraft are already approved to 10% and permit
aircraft - Micros are approved and SEP should be by the end of the year.

"Rotax. that's current, what the future brings - ???"

Aircraft design is dominated by and lags behind engine design. Industrial conversions show some promise though.

"Farm Strips. definitley not, mainly because major EU governing countries don't allow that kind of field ... "

Some do, some don't.

IFR approval for Permit aircraft is in final testing stage - criteria should be finalized in 6 months. We will then have Permit, Strip, Mogas, Rotax, IFR!

Rod1

[Capt Kremmen]

Re 21

Farm strips in Europe? Practically everywhere, as in Britain.

Mogas ? Manufacturers of Rotax specify its use and it is everywhere!

Rotax future? Further refinements to turbo charging and development of larger engines. (The future's bright; the future's Rotax)

Permit a/c? Numbers growing year on year (see LAA stats) as more convert and build.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Squeege,

Your original question has inspired me to write what I think might happen to private flying in the foreseeable future. (I use the term private flying in order to exclude the corporate twins and 'aerial work' A/C and PPL/IRs flying £100,000 complex singles on business from what I am about to write).

In the mid-naughties I returned to flying after a break of many years. On looking round I found that the average flying club of any size seemed to own perhaps six or seven American-made SEP spamcans, half C152s built in the 80s the remainder Cherokee variants built in the 80s or 90s, all with complete blind flying panel. Then there would be a Seneca for twin training, a tail dragger, usually a Cub, and an aerobatic type such as a Bulldog or Decathlon and a complex single (i.e. perhaps an Arrow).

I remembered thinking to myself, why do even the most bog-standard SEPs here have full panel when most of the flying they do is by PPL/NPPL students and PPL/NPPL qualified pilots who only fly VFR? I also noted that the tail-dragger, aerobatic type, Arrow and Seneca seemed to fly relatively few hours compared to the basic SEPs. All these things cost money yet the club seemed to need to be 'all things to all men'.

I eventually came to the conclusion that the ordinary PPL/NPPL training was effectively subsidising the twin, aerobatic, complex single and taildragger flying. I wondered how long this could go on.

In terms of training then, it was possible to start off by gaining a PPL and then, if you wished, move on to a CPL, IR, FI, or even a modular ATPL.

A few years later we had the 'Credit Crunch' leading to the continuing financial crisis. This certainly knocked me out of the flying game and I'm sure many others as well. The government currently crows about 'Britain's recovery', but there is only the very barest recovery. Austerity is going to last for many years yet and will knock many more people out of flying over time.

The club where I did my flying in the mid naughties later changed hands and is now very much smaller than it was. All it has now are about 4 SEP spam-cans and a vintage tail-dragger. The spam-cans are all dependent upon imported American SEP spares and the tail-dragger will always be expensive to maintain.

I believe that a time is approaching when flying clubs will have to specialise and in particular set themselves up to cater for a pilot who has much less money than at present to spend on flying. The hourly rate will need to be brought down to under £100 per hour microlight and just over £100 for PPL/NPPL SEP. This might mean simpler aircraft operated off an unlicensed field.

In future, it may be that a person will obtain their PPL/NPPL or microlight equivalent at one club and then, if they wish and can afford it, travel much further from home to a club specialising only in either twin, or aeros, or complex touring, etc if that is what they want.

So the club doing basic PPL/NPPL flying may well also include three-axis micro-light flying also. So that a person might well commence on the ultra-light version of, say, the Jabiru or the Escapade and then later decide, either to remain on micros permanently or, if they wish to do more advanced flying, or carry more weight, convert onto the Group A Jabiru or Escapade. Only the tiny few wishing to go professional or fly for business will move to a specialised club to do more advanced work.

Well that's how I see it.

BP.

[ETOPS]

Just to agree with BroomstickPilot ..

After 40 + years in this game I had my eyes opened by this little fella..

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2816/12894284485_499ddf1bf3_m.jpg

How I wish these had been around when I was an instructor. Forget the microlight tag - this is a small light aircraft with good performance, honest handling and economy. For getting a new recruit up to a basic level (such as NPPL) it's all that's needed. Once you learnt how to fly on such a machine it would be a simple step up to say a Tecnam or similar.

[xrayalpha]

BP,

Your future is our present, apart from the under £100 an hour!

When we bought Strathaven Airfield nine years ago, we traveled to see about 50 other airfields around the UK (and had memories of others we had flown into in the UK, Spain and the USA).

We saw the future as BMAA/LAA aircraft, like the Eurostar pictured. It seems we are correct, having gone from 3 aircraft at Strathaven to 31 at the last count - despite the credit crunch.

Have to disagree with the under £100 an hour, though.

In Strathaven, you can buy a one-bedroom flat from £15,000 / £18,000 / £20,000 - see UK's number one property website for properties for sale and to rent (http://www.rightmove.co.uk) for postcode ML10. Yet the local garages charge around £60 per hour.

With a typical "one hour" lesson taking two hours in the diary because of ground briefs, refuelling, coffee, etc then we'd need to be £120 an hour just to match the garage!

Add in the fact that we only flew two days last February, or it is dark until 9:30am and dark again at 3:30pm in December (so two lessons and a trial flight, if you are lucky), then you can see the costs have to be higher than £120 an hour.

In fact, think of the cost of the equipment. I don't know anyone who leases Eurostars or C42s. So microlight schools have to purchase their own aircraft - even garages can lease their heavy gear.

So, again, someone somewhere has to pay that cost.

Yes, you may dream of sub-£100. But if it happens (and it does in places) it is simply not sustainable. Perhaps the owner is forgetting about depreciation (I saw a 2,800 hour C42 up for sale at £32k, and a few years ago we bought two 300 hour C42s for £39k) , perhaps his/her instructors are working for nothing because they have pensions etc. I even know of one school that used to charge its (assistant) FIs.

Cost is not a problem in flying. Have a look at yachting - and see how many boats there are in marinas!

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Xrayalpha,

First of all, let me congratulate you on your prescience and even more on your success; 31 aircraft - wow!

I am sure you must be right about the cost of hire issue. However, whatever prices are charged I believe the name of the game from now on has to be tight control on costs and close attention to cost-effectiveness.

Daily hours of flying is another issue. When I learned to fly at Manchester Barton in 1960 daily flying would finish by about 4 p.m. in the winter. But in summer, however, the last flight would land at perhaps 8 or 9 p.m. (civil twilight?). At the club I joined in the mid naughties mid-summer flying would finish at 6 p.m. thus wasting hours of daylight. I don't know why; it could have been on planning grounds or to do with noise abatement or staffing demand or the airfield licence. Whatever the reason I feel the loss of those hours too reduced the earning capacity of the club.

I am not convinced by your use of yachting as an analogy. If you have to give up your yacht for reasons of financial stringency you can always crew for other owners and we don't know how many of those yachts in the marina have been up for sale for ages or just being inadequately maintained or completely neglected.

Anyway, splendid news from Strathaven. Let me wish you continued good fortune. (The way the national economy is going you are going to need it; where 'austerity' is concerned we aint seen nuthin yet; just wait 'till after the next election).

Regards,

BP.