First flight to Ireland

[KandiFloss]

Dear Ppruners,

I am hoping to plan a flight across to Ireland in October. I am planning on flying from Shropshire across to Newcastle in Southern Ireland. Can anyone offer any advice or recommendations about the trip? Has anyone been to Newcastle? I have looked on Newcastle's website, and they say that you have to have completed a General Aviation Report. I assume also that I will need to file a flight plan because of the distance over the sea? I've never submitted a flight plan before ... any advice?

Thanks!

[Una Due Tfc]

Any flight that crosses an international border MUST file a flightplan, so yes you'll need to do that. If you are really stuck then just ring up your local AIS, or the Irish one.

+353 61 703 750

That's the phone number for Shannon AIS

[maxred]

Hi Kandi, yes you will require, PPR, ring them up prior to your flight, and let them know you are coming. A GAR, which can be filed online, www.onlinegar.com, and would suggest a flight plan.

Although, Newcastle is strictly VFR, have an alternate. Look at Weston.

If you have Sky Demon you can also file your flight plan through the web link.

Have a good flight. Plan the weather carefully.....

[Jan Olieslagers]

Filing a flight plan may look daunting - as do so many things when done for the first time - but has always worked very easy, for me. I would recommend filing through one of the many websites available, then after 15 or 20 minutes call the appropriate service on the phone and ask them if it is all right. I have called some of these services at home and abroad and have only come upon persons that were friendly, able, correct, and very much willing to help.

Remember nothing keeps you from filing a flight plan even when it is not required! Next time you fly cross country, do file a flight plan before, and when contacting FIS add "on a VFR flight plan" to your usual message. Then ask them to activate it, and, above all, make sure it gets closed after you land. At controlled fields this is usually done tacitly but it never hurts to request confirmation. After landing at a non-controlled field, another phone call is the simplest way, and has always worked ok for me.

[Fionn101]

have a look at Weston aerodrome (EIWT) as it may suit you needs better.
More transport links at Weston to get around the country, decent cafe , fuel and people happy to assist.

EINC Newcastle is situated in a Beautiful part of the country so I can understand a flight there also.

Hope this helps, anything else just ask.

[booke23]

As mentioned you MUST file a flight plan. A GAR is not a substitute for a flight plan........however if flying to Northern Ireland, a flight plan is not required (you're not crossing an international boundry) but a GAR would be required.

[KandiFloss]

Una Due Tfc - thanks for your advice, I appreciate that, and thank you for Shannon AIS's number

Maxred - yes, it's good advice to have an alternative, especially after crossing all that water. I did originally think about going into Weston before, but I was a little apprehensive about heading to Dublin area, as there seems to be quite a few military/restricted areas around it (CASEMENT/Baldonnel, etc) which I am worried might be tricky to fly around. I would like something fairly straightforward, as I only have 140 hours Total Time, and although I am hoping to fly with someone more experienced, I still want to take responsiblity for the flight. Unfortunately I don't have Sky Demon, the aircraft that I hire has a GPS though. Thank you for your wishes, I hope to have a good flight, it's for a significant birthday, so I want to do something memorable!

Jan Olieslagers - thanks for your reply. I know that it sounds a bit silly, but yes, I am a bit apprehensive about filing a flight plan, as i've never done it before. I've only ever seen a flight plan whilst studying. I'm sure that it will be fine, and if there is any problem, they will ask for clarification. It's nice of you (having had the experience of having filed a flight plan) to offer me some advice. The advice about filing a practice is a great idea. Thank you :)

Fionn101 - A while ago did originally think about going into Weston, but as I mentioned in my comment to Maxred, I was a little apprehensive about heading to Dublin area, as there seems to be quite a few restricted areas around it (CASEMENT/Baldonnel, etc) which I am worried might be tricky to fly around. I am a bit apprensive about flying across the Irish Sea (particularly in a Cessna), and someone with more experience has suggested flying up to Scotland, and then across to somewhere like Enniskillen. I know that this reduces the distance travelled over the sea. I'd love to go to Ireland, my grandmother was Irish, and i've always said that the first time that I go to Ireland I want to fly myself. I did some research over the weekend, looked at a map of Ireland, and the information and pictures of Wicklow looked lovely. I've just got to have the courage to do it now! Thanks for your reply!

[Mariner9]

Hi KF,

The military exercise areas around Dublin are no big deal - many are "active" only at weekends, and even when active I've invariably been cleared through them without any hassle.

As others have said flight plans are mandatory for crossing an international FIR boundary, and you will need to file a GAR for your flight back to the UK 12 hours in advance.

Suggest you put a notice up at your airfield (guessing Sleap?) asking if any experienced ppl would like to come along for the ride in return for help with planning and the formalities. You could ask something similar on the "spare seats" thread on this forum.

As for routing, if it was me I'd route Sleap-Newcastle direct, asking for clearance through Dublin CTA at my desired crossing level , or descending to <2500' and going under it in the unlikely event clearance refused.

[piperarcher]

At the school I used to fly from, it was mandatory to do a cross channel checkout if you wanted to take one of their planes to L2K, which was fair enough. The added advantage is that you have an instructor with you who will show you how to successfully do a flight plan, verify it is in the system, how to activate it (and remember you will need tell ATC your ETA for the zone boundary so work that one out on the ground first), how to handle different ATC authorities etc etc......

Of course, nowadays there is SkyDemon or EasyVFR that will greatly assist with all the planning and flight plan filing / GAR filing so its much easier.

[malcolmf]

Hi KF
Just done a similar trip, using Skydemon to do the planning, GAR and flightplans. All easy.
Have a look at routing S via Strumble VOR. and across via Slany. Its useful to use IFR reporting points on your flightplan for FIR boundary crossing. We were in contact with London INFO and they handed us over to Shannon with a squawk. At 3000 feet we had full radio coverage.
Once in Ireland, flying is much simpler, with much better integration of services. You need a flightplan to enter or leave any controlled airspace, but in practice it's fine. We got cleared through the Shannon overhead at 2000 feet, flying from Inishmor to Waterford on one squawk.
make sure it gets closed after you land
Not required in the UK, but must be done in Ireland. An ATC unit will do it automatically, but a small airfield might not.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Dear KandiFloss,

Of course you should first pursue progress as a pilot, and it seems clear to me you are working hard there, and to good effect. Keep going!

That said, and taken due care of, allow me to recommend you should become a more proficient forum participator here. Your last reply was so kind, so sweet, so well worded, so appropriate, that I actually began to doubt whether this was pprune at all. Next time, do be more straightforward, do not hesitate to insult some, or at least infuriate them, and throw in a handful of spelling errors - then and only then will you be really at home here!

</pun>

[KandiFloss]

Jan Olieslagers - he he ... I know what you mean :D i've seen quite a few replies on other threads which end up getting taken over by people arguing about spelling / grammar, nothing at all to do with the original thread :ugh:

[thing]

I wouldn't worry about flying into Weston. Dublin are very good at threading you through. Be aware that on the way out they may ask you to route by 'Killiney' which threw me a bit untill I realised they meant Kilo November Yankee, the NDB near Sallynoggin.

[maxred]

That reminded me of the American guy on radio who asked where, Ben Beck Coola was.....

Bee, Eee, Nnn etc

[dublinpilot]

This should help you with your questions
Flying in Ireland (http://www.cfarrell.eu/Flying/FII/Flying_in_Ireland.htm)

Don't forget that apart from the UK GAR, you'll need to make arrangements for notifying the Irish Authorities. Contact Newcastle airport to find out their procedures (each airport has agreed different procedures with Customs).

[malcolmf]

dublinpilot,
If I may a couple of amendments to your excellent guide, based on my recent trip.
Flight plan processing is now 30 min as of June this year.
Taxi from Airport to Waterford is around Euro 20.
Although the nominal notice time at Inishmor is 3 hours, in practice the guys are there 9 to 5 during the summer, when departing we asked, and they said just go when you want.
Aer Arann may not be able to get hold of the Inishmaan crew in time, so be ready to go to Inishmor!!

[Pace]

Kandi

You have not mentioned whether you hold any instrument qualifications like an IMCR?

If not and you are a pure VFR pilot do really be careful with the weather.
It is easy to have no horizon over the sea and remember too it can be CAVOK over land and thick fog banks over the sea so plan when you go very carefully.
Remember the weather over the pond in S Ireland is often very different to what you have in the UK.

I too would recommend Weston It is not difficult

the beauty of crossing near Anglesey is that you will have excellent radar coverage and helpful although very busy controllers and its very reassuring to see Anglesey behind you for some time and then a line of clouds marking the Irish coast ahead.

Make sure you have the usual Dinghy and life jackets and set off fairly early so you have plenty of daylight hours ahead.

Don't be bashful about taking someone more experienced along for the trip for the first time or if you have MSFS flying it on a home computer first they are surprisingly accurate especially if you have the photo like scenery added.

As a first time water crosser remember only you know the aircraft is over water the aircraft does not and its strange how a normally smooth running engine suddenly takes on a different tone and freaks you out! I am sure that over water you become more aware of the engine sounds and imagine all manner of ills.
Check the engine gauges on a regular basis, try to change tanks if possible over land.

Getting there is one thing coming back another so if you are staying more than the day make sure your return weather is going to be as good as the outbound as many have been caught out

Pace

[dublinpilot]

Thanks Malcom.

It's been awhile since I updated it, so probably due for a few updates such as those you suggested. I'll put them in asap.

dp

[malcolmf]

As a first time water crosser remember only you know the aircraft is over water the aircraft does not and its strange how a normally smooth running engine suddenly takes on a different tone and freaks you out! I am sure that over water you become more aware of the engine sounds and imagine all manner of ills.
Check the engine gauges on a regular basis, try to change tanks if possible over land.
Personally, I get to my planned crossing altitude and power setting then change tanks, about 5 min before coasting out, and then don't touch anything apart from regular application of carb heat. If you fly on one tank for as long as your crossing before starting the crossing, then you'll be balanced at the end. I'm not sure yet whether I would rather ditch, or land in a ditch!
Thanks Malcom.

It's been awhile since I updated it, so probably due for a few updates such as those you suggested. I'll put them in asap.

dp
One further thing, when we bought fuel in Waterford to depart to Inishmore, we were charged VAT at 23%. Departing from Waterford to Popham we weren't. That brought the price down to £1.76/litre. The best way then seems to be fuel up before you go, or land somewhere like Haverfordwest to refuel, then fill up on your way home.

[dublinpilot]

One further thing, when we bought fuel in Waterford to depart to Inishmore, we were charged VAT at 23%. Departing from Waterford to Popham we weren't. That brought the price down to £1.76/litre. The best way then seems to be fuel up before you go, or land somewhere like Haverfordwest to refuel, then fill up on your way home.

That must be a mistake. It has never been possible to fuel up in Ireland VAT free and duty free for private flights were removed a few years ago.

[malcolmf]

I did wonder! Not knocking it though...
Perhaps I should remove that post :O

[KandiFloss]

Good morning prunners!

Thank you for everyone's replies to my post. I just thought that I would let you know that on saturday I successfully completed my trip to Ireland ... hurray! A friend and I flew from Sleap to Newcastle in Ireland. We were very lucky with the weather, and I was watching the weather like a hawk all week! We had some great views of Wales, and then it was really cool heading out over the coast, roughly 10 miles South of Caernarfon. We went via LIPGO. It was cool to see the Irish coastline. It was my first landing on grass, and I was a bit surprised at how slippery it was ... icerink springs to mind :ooh: . Newcastle was a nice airfield to visit, and we were made so welcome by John Nugent (Manager) and his staff. I wish I could have stayed overnight and enjoyed some of the legendary partying that the Irish are famous for :) . I'd love to do a tour of Ireland someday.

When it was time to leave, we got airborne and asked for the flightplan to be opened up for our flight back. Dublin couldn't find it .... :eek: . I had filed it through AFPex, and had a hardcopy with me, but they still couldn't find my flightplan ... agghhhh! After returning back to Sleap, I found out that my friend's dad had this problem too, and he nearly got interecepted by the military :uhoh: . So it's not the first time that Dublin have not been able to find a filed flightplan. I was very surprised to found out that in UK you don't have to close a flightplan???? I triple checked this, as I always believed that you HAD to close a flight plan. On the outward journey Dublin closed it for us, so that was fine. I was told that here you don't have to close a flightplan, but I was worried that if you didn't, then SAR would be scrambled? I was told that this isn't the case. My point was 'what happens if you crash and die ... then you can't alert the authorites either'? No one knows and assumes that you got back safely as 'no news is good news'??? Apparantly you don't have to close your flight plan anymore because so many people forget to do it? I think (despite still being lowish hours) that this is a flawed system. I guess that we could have closed the flightplan with London Information before we changed back to Sleap????

[piperarcher]

I guess that we could have closed the flightplan with London Information before we changed back to Sleap????

I tried that (though with Farnborough Radar, and not London Info) but they rejected the idea and said it had to be closed on the ground after landing, which seems fair. And yes, you dont have to close them, it happens automatically. What triggers search and rescue I dont know...

[Mariner9]

About time we had another thread on Pprune saying how pointless and stupid the Air Law examination is and how it will all be forgotten immediately upon qualifying ;)

(Not getting at the above two posters by the way - "request closing flightplan' followed by "negative cannot do so" are VERY commonly heard on London Info)

[KandiFloss]

PiperArcher - Thanks for sharing your experience, i'm glad to know that i'm not the only one who had this problem

Mariner - It was the first time that i'd ever filed a flight plan, so it was all new to me. I'm learning about new aspects of flying (as is everyone) all the time, that's what I love about it.

[Jan Olieslagers]

I was told that here you don't have to close a flightplan, but I was worried that if you didn't, then SAR would be scrambled? I was told that this isn't the case.

If the flight plan is not closed in due time - i.e. after the "endurance time" you wrote - then they basically have to trigger SAR, yes. Over the years they have learned that people tend to forget, so before trigering such an expensive operation, with no certitude that you'll be able to pay for it, they'll go some length to make sure you didn't simply forget. Normally they will try to call your filed destination and alternates, and if you mentioned your mobile number in the flight plan they will call that too.

In many cases your flight plan will be closed for you, normally by the tower of the field where you land, but I am never sure if this is mandatory. It never hurts to ask, so as to be on the safe side! If in doubt, call one of the adressees on the phone after landing.

In all theory, closing a flight plan can only be done after landing. For non-radioed/non controlled fields, some countries allow closing through the FIS, when "destination field in sight" is reported.

[hoodie]

And yes, you dont have to close them, it happens automatically. What triggers search and rescue I dont know...

The UK is out on its own in not requiring positive flight plan closure. Personally, I don't see that as a good thing.

What you are supposed to do is nominate a "responsible person" to call out SAR if you don't arrive. At a manned airfield who have received your flight plan, the responsible person is likely to be ATC/AFIS but not if you arrive after hours, or to a farm strip, or wherever.

[dublinpilot]

If the flight plan is not closed in due time - i.e. after the "endurance time" you wrote - then they basically have to trigger SAR, yes.

Jan that is true everywhere that I'm aware of, EXCEPT the one under discussion here! The UK does not have that system, and will not do S&R unless someone specifically requests it (known in the UK as a responsible person). Simply not closing a plan won't result in S&R in the UK.

[Mariner9]

Most countries (UK included) go through clearly defined Uncertainty and then Alert Phases before despatching SAR assets in the case of an overdue arrival.
In the OP's case, a phone call to Sleap during the Uncertainty phase would have revealed he'd landed, even if some "responsible person" had requested assistance due to an unclosed FP.

Closest I ever came to a SAR launch on my behalf was on crossing the Alps from Italy into France, and having to orbit for an hour with no radio reception awaiting clouds to clear the Pt St Bernard Pass. Phoned the French flight plan number to close upon arrival at Bourg (after hours by then so nobody around) to be told I had been on Uncertainty phase :eek:

[Jan Olieslagers]

Simply not closing a plan won't result in S&R in the UK. Hmmmpppff. What then is the !@#$%^&^&*** reason for filing a flight plan? Suppose I actually DO go missing, how will "the powers that be" realise?

On a recent flight through Germany, that went awry due to low cloud, I was much reassured by the FIS inquiring whether I was still on the frequency! I'm not sure she would have done that if I were not an a flight plan. It is nice to know one is being looked after.

[Mariner9]

Jan - ATC automatically provide an Alerting Service if you are in receipt of a FIS regardless of whether or not you are on an FP, so you would presumably of got that call in any event.

As to Q regarding the point of an FP if SAR is not automatically launched, consider some of the mandatory requirements for FP filling:

Crossing International Boundary
Entering or leaving controlled airspace.

Neither of the above 2 categories are specified just for locating overdue aircraft, as it is of course just as serious if a local OCAS flight goes missing and no FP is required for that.

Whereas, for direct safety issues encompassed by for example:

More than 10 miles from a coast
Crossing dangerous and/or remote terrain

FP's are only recommended and are not mandatory.

This suggests to me that FP requirements are more geared to admin than safety requirements.