Rating on 6 seater single engine

[Raab]

Hi All,

first post here,

So, after having a look through the posts here and looking around on google, I am trying to get a rating on a single piston 6 seater. something like a A36 or cessna 210.

Im based in London and looking for any info on where I could get a rating on any of the above or something. I know I can get a rating on a PA34 Seneca in Stapleford but it is multi engine and the costs of that are a bit higher, so looking at a single...

does anyone have any info on where I could get a rating anywhere in the area?

Thanks!

[tmmorris]

Do you already have a licence? I'm guessing not...

There's no such thing as a rating on the aircraft you mention. They all come under the Single Engine Piston rating.

[Raab]

Ive almost finished my PPL, just doing my revision now before I sit my flight test...
I was told that you had to get separate ratings...
so once I have my PPL I can fly any single piston plane? ive been training on a PA28....

[worldpilot]

so once I have my PPL I can fly any single piston plane?YES, when you attain your PPL certificate, your are issued the "SEP Aeroplane Class Rating" which allows you to pilot Single Engine Piston (SEP) Aeroplanes.:ok:

However though, you must be checked out on the make and model of an SEP aeroplane to be able to pilot the aircraft. E.g., if you are checked out on Cessna 172 with a legacy cockpit, you can fly the Cessna 172 (legacy cockpit). But you can't pilot the Cessna 172SP equipped with Garmin 1000 because of the difference in cockpit instrumentation. You will have to go through a transition training.

In addition, if you want to fly a Cessna Cutlass (which has some complexities), you must go through a transition training for this Cessna model.

In essence, any SEP aircraft you want to fly, you must be endorsed to fly the aircraft make and model.

Some rental agencies might allow you to fly other models without explicitly checking you out if you have been endorsed in a more complex model. E.g I went though the transition training for Cirrus SR22 and hence I can also fly the Cirrus SR20 model without doing any transition.

Also I have the endorsement for Cessna 182RG and can fly the Cessna 182, 172, 152 models.

WP

[Piper.Classique]

Raab, nice to have you here, but should this question not have been covered when you studied air law?

This link may help (http://http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2694&pageid=15206)

Strictly speaking a checkout is only required when there is a significant difference between what you are flying and what you want to fly. Nosewheel to tailwheel for instance. However, if you are renting, expect to get checked out on types even within a class, because renters would like to make sure you are unlikely to break their aeroplane.
So, for instance, if you have been flying a C172 with classic instruments and want to fly a C152 with classic instruments you are unlikely to just be handed the keys and told to get on with it until you have considerable flying experience.

[Raab]

right ok! that makes more sense.

cool, well thanks for that info.

though that would lead me on to the next question. Where would I be able to rent a 6 seater single engine piston plane in the general area of London once I have my PPL in the next couple of weeks?

Obviously I wouldn't be able to just get it i presume as I am newly qualified and people would not be overly keen on letting me rent one straight away but to be able to practice with an instructor/under supervision and build hours in that type of aircraft so I have experience.

Thanks!

[Genghis the Engineer]

In theory anyhow, there's only mandatory differences training within a class rating.

In reality, nobody is going to let a new PPL fly something relatively big and complex without some conversion training. This isn't a rating, it's just a combination of common sense, and (insurance driven) self protection.

G

[foxmoth]

In essence, any SEP aircraft you want to fly, you must be endorsed to fly the aircraft make and model.

Certainly not the case in the UK, as Ghengis says In reality, nobody is going to let a new PPL fly something relatively big and complex without some conversion training., but you could actually go out and buy any aircraft that you had covered differences training for and legally fly it with no further training, so, having trained on a C152 you could fly most tricycle SEP with fixed pitch prop and standard instruments without further training, more complex aircraft you need differences training for things like VP props, retracts and glass cockpits, but even this is still not type specific!

[Talkdownman]

One 'oddball' in the UK was the PA46 piston Malibu which used to require a type rating. I believe this might no longer be the case and that it is now included within the SEP rating. Can anyone confirm?

[worldpilot]

You definitely need additional training to fly the Piper Malibu. Even if you buy the aircraft, you'll be advised to take training in the aircraft.
It would be very risky to jump into such a complex and high performance aircraft without proper training.

WP

[worldpilot]

though that would lead me on to the next question. Where would I be able to rent a 6 seater single engine piston plane in the general area of London once I have my PPL in the next couple of weeks?I'm not aware of any place in the London area where you can reant a 6 seater. However, if you really want to fly 6 seater aeroplanes and you have the time and money to spend to gain some valuable experience, I would recommend the following club at Montgomery Field Airport, California.

Plus One Flyers - Montgomery Fleet (http://www.plusoneflyers.org/fleet/montgomery-fleet)

You can rent the Piper PA-46 Malibu, Cirrus etc at this club.
The rate of $299 wet for the Piper Malibu is a good deal.

WP

[500ft]

Get checked out on a basic 4 seater like a Cherokee or C172.

Fly with 3 passengers one day, the other 2 the next. Far simpler and cheaper.

[dera]

Modern Air in Fowlmere, EGMA, has a nice PA32R-301.

[flybymike]

One 'oddball' in the UK was the PA46 piston Malibu which used to require a type rating. I believe this might no longer be the case and that it is now included within the SEP rating. Can anyone confirm?

PA46 type rating no longer required for piston which is now quite rightly regarded as just another SEP.

The turbine ones of course require an SET rating.

This still leaves the anomaly of the type rating required for the Extra400 but there ain't many of them around.

[AdamFrisch]

Most responses are being disingenuous with the truth.

There is no regulatory requirement that demands that you have special training in type as long as you have class. If you have a SEP rating you are legal to fly any single engine aircraft that does NOT require a type rating or a turbine/jet endorsement. The 'differences training' mentioned is the one required by insurance companies and rental companies, but it has nothing to do with regulations. I am fully legal to go straight from a 152 into a PA-46 if I have CS prop and complex endorsement. I should qualify that - there used to be a 100hr limit to be able to carry more than 4 passengers, but I'm not sure that's still in play.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Most responses are being disingenuous with the truth.
Not that I can see.

The 'differences training' mentioned is the one required by insurance companies and rental companies, but it has nothing to do with regulations.
Negative, regulations apply.

Additional requirements may be required by owners and insurers.

I am fully legal to go straight from a 152 into a PA-46 if I have CS prop and complex endorsement.
Which are obtained through legally required "differences training".

I should qualify that - there used to be a 100hr limit to be able to carry more than 4 passengers, but I'm not sure that's still in play.
So far as I know, that only applies to commercial operations, and not private flying.



To the OP - probably the most straightforward six seater you're likely to be able to get your hands on is the PA32, variously known as the Cherokee 6, or Piper 6X.

G

[AdamFrisch]

Only if it's of greater complexity and has the below listed things does it need differences training with an instructor, which was what I alluded to, perhaps unclearly. Otherwise it's a familiarisation flight that can be achieved by - well - familiarising yourself with the aircraft.

VP props.
Retractable undercarriage.
Turbo engines.
Cabin pressurisation.
Tail wheel.
EFIS cockpit.
Goes over 140kts.
Single Lever Power Control - this one is so silly they should really consider harakiri for the betterment of mankind. Just beyond.

[piperboy84]

Not sure about ratings, classes, differences training, insurance requirements etc. etc, but if your just finishing up your PPL it may be an idea to get a few hundred hours of real world flying in a 172/pa28 under your belt before setting off in a 300hp complex six seater retractable full of passengers. Not trying to be arsey, just a personal opinion based on being a low timer myself.

[tmmorris]

If you can travel a bit further, PFT at Kidlington have a Cherokee 6 at £209/hour solo. Not sure if they have a minimum hours requirement - you might find that anyone renting you one will want 100hrs minimum (or even 100hrs P1). You could give them a ring.

[foxmoth]

Only if it's of greater complexity and has the below listed things does it need differences training with an instructor, which was what I alluded to,

And what, without the list, most posters had already put, with the one wrong poster being corrected:hmm:

[BEagle]

Do heed the requirements of FCL.710 though:

FCL.710 Class and type ratings – variants

(a) In order to extend his/her privileges to another variant of aeroplane within one class or type rating, the pilot shall undertake differences or familiarisation training.

In the case of variants within a type rating, the differences or familiarisation training shall include the relevant elements defined in the operational suitability data established in accordance with Part-21.

(b) If the variant has not been flown within a period of 2 years following the differences training, further differences training or a proficiency check in that variant shall be required to maintain the privileges, except for types or variants within the single engine piston and TMG class ratings.

(c) The differences training shall be entered in the pilot’s logbook or equivalent record and signed by the instructor as appropriate.

Which means that, for example, if you flew a C152 for your PPL course, then before you fly a C172, PA28-140 etc., you are required to undertake familiarisation training (or difference training if the variant has certain specific features). So you may not just hop in to a new variant and fly it without at least some familiarisation training.

[AdamFrisch]

Maybe we're splitting hairs here, but familiarisation can be self-study (i.e. read the POH) or other pilot. Does not need to be an instructor. So you can go from a C152 to a C172 or PA28.

As can be read under Definitions in LASORS:

http://books.google.com/books?id=exXDMwAJVHkC&pg=RA2-PA6&lpg=RA2-PA6&dq=caa+familiarisation+training&source=bl&ots=wSSUk15mzr&sig=4Zao6HaUT1z7y11W5ycUXnozMVc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vEL8U-PeA9ilyASJrIDYDA&ved=0CGsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=caa%20familiarisation%20training&f=false

[Genghis the Engineer]

True, and of course anybody flying a single seater for the first time has no choice in the matter.

But, from personal experience, I normally find I need to spend 2-4 times as long reading my way into a single seater (or aeroplane for which there's no instructor available). There's also plenty of anecdotal evidence of problems caused by PPLs who aren't instructors doing checkouts.

Plus, frankly Adam, you are trying to tell a new (not even that yet) PPL that he should follow gash substandard practices that will significantly increase his chances of an accident.

Basic aeronautical realities are:-

(1) A new PPL would be most sensible to get some reasonable experience before trying to fly something significantly bigger than they've learned in, particularly with more than a couple of passengers.

(2) Nobody but an idiot would allow such a pilot to fly such an aeroplane without training on type. Insurers are likely to insist upon it. A sensible PPL will make quite sure that he gets that training.

(3) Differences training is required for the list already posted (by you Adam). This is not optional.

G

[cockney steve]

Really, this is just arguing semantics. As is well- documented,70 years ago, it was common practice for a young lady to jump into a massively powerful single taildragger, read the Pilot's notes and set off on a delivery......then it might be a twin, a four-engined bomber or even , possibly an open-cockpit bi-plane.
The vast majority of these self -taught heroines and heroes survived the war unscathed!
It has also to be remembered that some of these machines had less than benign handling -characteristics.

I am certainly not advocating this as an ideal route to learning to fly a specific type. It would be a real fool who, with very limited experience, ignores the pool of wisdom available and sets off to make all the mistakes for himself. Such fools do exist....well, for a short while,anyway :}
I would be very wary of stepping into a multi-seat aircraft with a newly qualified, inexperienced pilot..,, I'm sure there would be a marked difference in handling 6-up compared with solo It is also unfair on both the pax and the pilot to attempt this until the experience is there.
just my opinion, of course.

[Raab]

thanks for the advice on it all.

I am not intending to get in a 6 seater straight from doing my PPL and going on some crazy flight with 5 others not having done it before! That would be rather silly.

But I currently have about 35 hours solo in a PA28 and then about 50 dual in a combination of a PA28 and Citabria.

the reason i have so much and havent done my PPL yet is cause I started it abroad with a non EASA registered company and due to other circumstances I had to leave and come back to the UK when I was 90% of the way to finishing. So I now I have jsut found out that I need to redo 10 hours under supervision solo and 25 hours with an instructor as part of the EASA PPL course as my non-EASA hours do not apply for EASA PPL. Though my hours will all be taken into account at the end.

So I am just looking at other planes I can fly besides a PAS28 or C172 that will be a bit more interesting as I have to redo 25 hours and just thought that a 6 seater single would be a good start as I can get some of my hours under supervision/ with an instructor in that type of plane and then I would have some experience in it for the future...

[Genghis the Engineer]

Steve - It's not semantics however that most ATA pilots were highly experienced, all were well supported and expected to fly only in a very narrow envelope, less than 1 in 100 was cleared to fly 4 - engine bombers, whilst about 1 in 7 died in accidents.

Raab - good attitude. Nothing Incidentally stops you doing your night qualification within those hours, nor tailwheel, glass cockpit.... You can probably clock up quite a lot of value to you later. Just "big" may not be the best place to learn useful stuff in the short term.

G

[9 lives]

Yes, the ferry pilots were an exceptional group! The skill to go from one plane to the next is gained through doing it, in a well trained and supervised environment.

It's great that Raab has time in the PA-28 and Citabria, a good combination for skills development! Raab, you'll find that the larger aircraft are easier in some respects, like not so gust reactive as the Citabria, but on the other hand, that added inertia makes it more difficult to correct things when they start to go wrong.

But importantly, as you mentioned, you'll want some more experience in general, and on the larger type, before you start carrying lots of people. Letting alone the simple responsibility for the people, they can be a distraction to you while you're flying, or even a problem when they yell "Hey whats' that!" as you're just lifting off.

In Canada, we're a little less government regulated when it comes to being type trained, a pilot can pretty well go from one type to the next within a class, and self train if they like, but the insurance company will still take quite an interest. It is likely them who require training, and supervised time on type, based upon the pilot's experience, and that's a good thing.

[Fuji Abound]

Raab some good advice here as always and very sensible comments form you.

Aside from the regulations, to be realistic and to sum up, so far as the real world is concerned you will almost certainly need some combination of VP prop., glass and under carriage.

You will also find the step up reasonably challenging so soon after your PPL - think in terms of 10 to 30 hours to be comfortable. On the basis that you will be hiring I would be surprised if you would complete the difference training and club / group approval on type in less than 15 hours.

There will porbably be some insurance loading as well.

If you are serious about a six seater and there happens to be any twins around you might consider them as an aletrnative. I think it is still 25 hours P1 time before you can do your multi but you might get your multi done in not a lot more than the minimium. (5 hours I think). The training will make you a much better pilot and will open up more options.

Like four seaters, six seats rarely mean you can carry six adults with reasonable amounts of fuel whereas in something like an Aztec you can load up six full size adults, full tanks and head down to Nice.

[BillieBob]

If you are serious about a six seater and there happens to be any twins around you might consider them as an aletrnative. I think it is still 25 hours P1 time before you can do your multi but you might get your multi done in not a lot more than the minimium. (5 hours I think).Actually, it's 70 hours PIC that is required before applying for the MEP Class Rating and the course is at least 7 hours theoretical knowledge training and 6 hours flight training. Probably not a sensible option in this case, particularly taking into account the last line of Post 25.

[mns1977]

Out of interest does anyone know where there is a twin to rent west of London?