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Rating on 6 seater single engine

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Rating on 6 seater single engine

Old 25th Aug 2014, 14:32
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: london
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Rating on 6 seater single engine

Hi All,

first post here,

So, after having a look through the posts here and looking around on google, I am trying to get a rating on a single piston 6 seater. something like a A36 or cessna 210.

Im based in London and looking for any info on where I could get a rating on any of the above or something. I know I can get a rating on a PA34 Seneca in Stapleford but it is multi engine and the costs of that are a bit higher, so looking at a single...

does anyone have any info on where I could get a rating anywhere in the area?

Thanks!
Raab is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2014, 19:08
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Do you already have a licence? I'm guessing not...

There's no such thing as a rating on the aircraft you mention. They all come under the Single Engine Piston rating.
tmmorris is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2014, 19:16
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Ive almost finished my PPL, just doing my revision now before I sit my flight test...
I was told that you had to get separate ratings...
so once I have my PPL I can fly any single piston plane? ive been training on a PA28....
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Old 25th Aug 2014, 21:32
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so once I have my PPL I can fly any single piston plane?
YES, when you attain your PPL certificate, your are issued the "SEP Aeroplane Class Rating" which allows you to pilot Single Engine Piston (SEP) Aeroplanes.

However though, you must be checked out on the make and model of an SEP aeroplane to be able to pilot the aircraft. E.g., if you are checked out on Cessna 172 with a legacy cockpit, you can fly the Cessna 172 (legacy cockpit). But you can't pilot the Cessna 172SP equipped with Garmin 1000 because of the difference in cockpit instrumentation. You will have to go through a transition training.

In addition, if you want to fly a Cessna Cutlass (which has some complexities), you must go through a transition training for this Cessna model.

In essence, any SEP aircraft you want to fly, you must be endorsed to fly the aircraft make and model.

Some rental agencies might allow you to fly other models without explicitly checking you out if you have been endorsed in a more complex model. E.g I went though the transition training for Cirrus SR22 and hence I can also fly the Cirrus SR20 model without doing any transition.

Also I have the endorsement for Cessna 182RG and can fly the Cessna 182, 172, 152 models.

WP

Last edited by worldpilot; 25th Aug 2014 at 21:55.
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Old 25th Aug 2014, 21:45
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Raab, nice to have you here, but should this question not have been covered when you studied air law?

This link may help

Strictly speaking a checkout is only required when there is a significant difference between what you are flying and what you want to fly. Nosewheel to tailwheel for instance. However, if you are renting, expect to get checked out on types even within a class, because renters would like to make sure you are unlikely to break their aeroplane.
So, for instance, if you have been flying a C172 with classic instruments and want to fly a C152 with classic instruments you are unlikely to just be handed the keys and told to get on with it until you have considerable flying experience.
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Old 25th Aug 2014, 21:50
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right ok! that makes more sense.

cool, well thanks for that info.

though that would lead me on to the next question. Where would I be able to rent a 6 seater single engine piston plane in the general area of London once I have my PPL in the next couple of weeks?

Obviously I wouldn't be able to just get it i presume as I am newly qualified and people would not be overly keen on letting me rent one straight away but to be able to practice with an instructor/under supervision and build hours in that type of aircraft so I have experience.

Thanks!

Last edited by Raab; 25th Aug 2014 at 22:41.
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Old 25th Aug 2014, 22:12
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In theory anyhow, there's only mandatory differences training within a class rating.

In reality, nobody is going to let a new PPL fly something relatively big and complex without some conversion training. This isn't a rating, it's just a combination of common sense, and (insurance driven) self protection.

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2014, 22:26
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In essence, any SEP aircraft you want to fly, you must be endorsed to fly the aircraft make and model.
Certainly not the case in the UK, as Ghengis says
In reality, nobody is going to let a new PPL fly something relatively big and complex without some conversion training.
, but you could actually go out and buy any aircraft that you had covered differences training for and legally fly it with no further training, so, having trained on a C152 you could fly most tricycle SEP with fixed pitch prop and standard instruments without further training, more complex aircraft you need differences training for things like VP props, retracts and glass cockpits, but even this is still not type specific!
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Old 25th Aug 2014, 22:46
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One 'oddball' in the UK was the PA46 piston Malibu which used to require a type rating. I believe this might no longer be the case and that it is now included within the SEP rating. Can anyone confirm?
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Old 25th Aug 2014, 23:13
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You definitely need additional training to fly the Piper Malibu. Even if you buy the aircraft, you'll be advised to take training in the aircraft.
It would be very risky to jump into such a complex and high performance aircraft without proper training.

WP
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Old 25th Aug 2014, 23:33
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though that would lead me on to the next question. Where would I be able to rent a 6 seater single engine piston plane in the general area of London once I have my PPL in the next couple of weeks?
I'm not aware of any place in the London area where you can reant a 6 seater. However, if you really want to fly 6 seater aeroplanes and you have the time and money to spend to gain some valuable experience, I would recommend the following club at Montgomery Field Airport, California.

Plus One Flyers - Montgomery Fleet

You can rent the Piper PA-46 Malibu, Cirrus etc at this club.
The rate of $299 wet for the Piper Malibu is a good deal.

WP
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Old 26th Aug 2014, 00:05
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Get checked out on a basic 4 seater like a Cherokee or C172.

Fly with 3 passengers one day, the other 2 the next. Far simpler and cheaper.

Last edited by 500ft; 26th Aug 2014 at 00:56.
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Old 26th Aug 2014, 00:15
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Modern Air in Fowlmere, EGMA, has a nice PA32R-301.
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Old 26th Aug 2014, 00:50
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One 'oddball' in the UK was the PA46 piston Malibu which used to require a type rating. I believe this might no longer be the case and that it is now included within the SEP rating. Can anyone confirm?
PA46 type rating no longer required for piston which is now quite rightly regarded as just another SEP.

The turbine ones of course require an SET rating.

This still leaves the anomaly of the type rating required for the Extra400 but there ain't many of them around.
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Old 26th Aug 2014, 05:53
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Most responses are being disingenuous with the truth.

There is no regulatory requirement that demands that you have special training in type as long as you have class. If you have a SEP rating you are legal to fly any single engine aircraft that does NOT require a type rating or a turbine/jet endorsement. The 'differences training' mentioned is the one required by insurance companies and rental companies, but it has nothing to do with regulations. I am fully legal to go straight from a 152 into a PA-46 if I have CS prop and complex endorsement. I should qualify that - there used to be a 100hr limit to be able to carry more than 4 passengers, but I'm not sure that's still in play.
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Old 26th Aug 2014, 06:17
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Originally Posted by AdamFrisch View Post
Most responses are being disingenuous with the truth.
Not that I can see.

The 'differences training' mentioned is the one required by insurance companies and rental companies, but it has nothing to do with regulations.
Negative, regulations apply.

Additional requirements may be required by owners and insurers.

I am fully legal to go straight from a 152 into a PA-46 if I have CS prop and complex endorsement.
Which are obtained through legally required "differences training".

I should qualify that - there used to be a 100hr limit to be able to carry more than 4 passengers, but I'm not sure that's still in play.
So far as I know, that only applies to commercial operations, and not private flying.



To the OP - probably the most straightforward six seater you're likely to be able to get your hands on is the PA32, variously known as the Cherokee 6, or Piper 6X.

G
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Old 26th Aug 2014, 06:40
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Only if it's of greater complexity and has the below listed things does it need differences training with an instructor, which was what I alluded to, perhaps unclearly. Otherwise it's a familiarisation flight that can be achieved by - well - familiarising yourself with the aircraft.

VP props.
Retractable undercarriage.
Turbo engines.
Cabin pressurisation.
Tail wheel.
EFIS cockpit.
Goes over 140kts.
Single Lever Power Control - this one is so silly they should really consider harakiri for the betterment of mankind. Just beyond.
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Old 26th Aug 2014, 06:44
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Not sure about ratings, classes, differences training, insurance requirements etc. etc, but if your just finishing up your PPL it may be an idea to get a few hundred hours of real world flying in a 172/pa28 under your belt before setting off in a 300hp complex six seater retractable full of passengers. Not trying to be arsey, just a personal opinion based on being a low timer myself.
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Old 26th Aug 2014, 07:05
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If you can travel a bit further, PFT at Kidlington have a Cherokee 6 at £209/hour solo. Not sure if they have a minimum hours requirement - you might find that anyone renting you one will want 100hrs minimum (or even 100hrs P1). You could give them a ring.
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Old 26th Aug 2014, 08:15
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Only if it's of greater complexity and has the below listed things does it need differences training with an instructor, which was what I alluded to,
And what, without the list, most posters had already put, with the one wrong poster being corrected
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