Can I legally change Flight School...?

[baleares]

This sounds like a stupid question to me, but I have been told by my flight instructor that, [for my hours gained so far to count] I am legally obliged to complete all training for a PPL licence with the same institution I began with.

I am enrolled in a "flight training academy" in Spain which I will not name and I am really not happy with the service.

I am about 25 hours in (fully paid up for 45 - [in instalments with three break points]) and I would prefer to find an independent flight instructor to continue my training and to book a skills test independently. I have passed 6 out of the 9 theoretical exams.

Am I legally able to do this or is my instructor correct ?

many thanks for any help

[for the sake of clarity, I am not asking about the legality of a refund - that is a another matter!]

[mad_jock]

he is talking rubbish but... you will more than likely loose the credit you have left. Which will be a lot.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

fully paid up for 45
If you'd come here first you'd have been told by several of us


DO NOT PAY UP FRONT

[sapperkenno]

And that children, is why we never pay up front. Thanks for starting this thread to remind everyone of such an important rule, which unfortunately people choose not to follow, and get burned.

[Heston]

Indeed and indeed...


Of course a question like this one is nothing to do with flying training. Its about commercial reality. You have entered into a contract with a provider of a service, and paid for it. If you wish to terminate the contract early that's OK, but there will be fine print somewhere to say that they won't refund you your money. And why should they? They are able and willing to fulfil their side of the contract.


You could maybe argue that they had in some way failed to fulfil their part of the contract. But what grounds have you got?


Your problem, if you just walk away (assuming you can afford to do that), will be to get them to release certified copies of your training record and exam results. If you can't get them you are back to square one.


Sorry, but the others are right - never pay up front!!

[BillieBob]

Neither you nor your instructor is entirely correct.I would prefer to find an independent flight instructor to continue my training and to book a skills test independently.That is not possible under current EU legislation. All training for the issue of a licence must be done within an ATO and the ATO providing the training must recommend you for the theoretical knowledge examinations and the skill test. I have been told by my flight instructor that I am legally obliged to complete all training for a PPL licence with the same institution I began with.That is complete nonsense - your instructor is either an idiot or a con-artist! There is nothing to stop you moving to another ATO, although, depending on the terms of your contract, you might not get the balance of your ill-advised, up-front payment back.

Oh, and did somebody mention - NEVER, EVER, PAY UP FRONT!

[Above The Clouds]

There is always one, when will people learn.

Never, Pay Up Front :ugh: :mad:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

So, is it ok to pay up front for flying training?

[PA28181]

Yeh, pay up front then leave, that'll show em'

I often pay for meals in restaurants then sneak out with out eating..

Back to reality, read the small print of your contract or even spend £100 with a lawyer, it may get some cash back on failing to provide contracted services or suchlike.

[Capt Kremmen]

Yes, it is but, only to me.

[Whirlybird]

It's worth having a friendly chat saying you've decided flying isn't for you (it's not, with them, so not really a lie) and just ask nicely if you can have a partial refund. Might work, and can't do any harm.

[cockney steve]

To the OP.
Just suppose you bought a new car on Hire Purchase.
9 months later, you decide you don't like the car, the services were rather dear and you don't like the Agent's workshop staff....can you cancel your debt and hand the car back and maybe get some of your deposit back.

What do you think the likely outcome would be?

Well, If I was that dealer, I'd charge you a substantial fee,based on the lost profits, the risk of losing-out on reselling your car and the fees to the finance company, underwriters insurers etc.

I'm a reasonable person, but I would not allow you to change your mind at my expense...If you go to a baker, buy a donut , take a bite and don't like it, do you seriously expect to hand the remains back and get a refund?

Continue the training you have paid for....If you aren't happy, consider some top-up additional lessons elsewhere.
This approach would also help you establish,
A- Your expectations of the first ATO are unrealistic.
B- The ATOis, indeed below par and you are able to make a reasonable case for breach of contract and demand a refund.


PS....if you hadn't paid up front for an unknown quantity, you wouldn't be in this position now!:}

Yes, I know it's a bit cruel to rub it in, but at least they haven't gone bust(yet!) taking your money with them......that is the main reason why everyone says never pay up front.

[worldpilot]

...I am really not happy with the service

Well, sort out the discrepancies or difficulties you have with the ATO. Approach the ATO with the options you think could remediate the situation and advance your training.

Your best option (even though I lack the full picture of your circumstances) is to exercise more concerted effort to bring your training Endeavour to a successfull completion.

Yes, you can do it. You paid for it because you had the determination to achieve your pilot certificate. Don't let psychological problems deter you from attaining your goal.

Go for it!:ok:

Good luck

WP

[A and C]

It is very difficult to know how to play this situation, if the flight school fails to provide aircraft, instructors or classroom lessons then it is easy to see the cause for compliant and a refund of money.

The real trouble comes when a student is making slow progress due to lack of aptitude but fails to see this is the case, the instructor will find that he can't move forward on the training course but the student can't see why he can't move forward.........the problem will Tripple if mummy & daddy are paying and see their offspring not making swift progress............... During this time all the instructor is doing is trying to get the student through the course without being a danger to himself and others.

I have been on the receiving end of a parent who thinks that I am being nasty to Little Johny when all I am trying to do is stop him due to lack of ability killing himself and posabley some poor innocent who happens to be on the ground in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is a toxic mix, a kid who wants to be seen to be doing well and a parent who thinks that you are putting down their offspring ......... And of course if Little Johny kills the self you can guess who will be the lawyers first target.

Baleares has to be honest with himself and decide if it is his lack of aptitude and/ or attitude that is the reason for the lack of progress or is it the lack of properly structured training or lack of instructors and aircraft that is at fault.

[foxmoth]

As has been said - DO NOT PAY UP FRONT!

But too late for that now, so the first thing to do is READ your contract properly. It may be that you can do some deal with them, but you need to know what your agreement says, there is certainly no legal requirement to finish your training with them and with European law being what it is I am pretty sure that there will be regulations that will allow you to get out of this, but finding the ones that allow you to do this and get your money back will probably need an (expensive) specialist, if they fight it you will need an even more expensive lawyer to sort - good luck!

[BabyBear]

It is interesting to note questions are being asked of the students aptitude without evidence, whilst there is evidence which should cause questions to be asked of the school.

BB

[Jonzarno]

Just looking at this from a purely contractual point of view:

1. As has been beaten into your head by everyone else posting, you bought a course of lessons and will almost certainly not get any money back.

2. BUT you have paid in full for the lessons you have actually had and, therefore, I believe you ARE entitled to your certified training records in respect of those lessons so, IMHO, although you would be out of pocket, you shouldn't be back to square one.


From a practical point of view, you don't give any details of why you are unhappy with the training. I know from my own experience, not just in flying, that it's easy to become frustrated with an instructor or coach.

It's easy to start to think that they are a complete idiot only to be surprised later on at how much they have learned in that time :O :)

Before jumping ship and throwing your money away, I recommend that you have a really close look at why it isn't working. Is it really all down to the school / instructor? If it's just the instructor and you not getting on, could you ask the school for a change?

My £.02

[cockney steve]

Continue the training you have paid for....If you aren't happy, consider some top-up additional lessons elsewhere.
This approach would also help you establish,
A- Your expectations of the first ATO are unrealistic.
B- The ATOis, indeed below par and you are able to make a reasonable case for breach of contract and demand a refund.

which bit did you miss? :p

[ChickenHouse]

Could we please straighten out things not belonging to each other?
It gives me headache to mix up all different part.

1: there is a contract with an ATO. Under EU regulations you have to have this for centrally managing all paperworks ... up to theory exam!
2: there is theory lessons. You may have this included in the ATO contract and get classroom training from them, or you may choose remote learning facilities separate.
3: there is a theory certificate the ATO, or the remote learning facility, issues when the student ist ready for exam
4: there is theory exam. After theory certificate is reached, the student, or the ATO when part of the contract, arranges theory exam
5: there is hours to fly under supervision of an ATO
6: there is a point in time the student decides to go for exam
7: there is practical exam

Typically a contract with ATO covers paperworks (1), maybe classroom training (2), certificate of finishing theory (3).

Theory exam (4) is a matter between student and local responsible government.

As operating a plane is quite costly, timing unpredictable and breaking off education not uncommon, part (5) is fly first, then pay for you flights on the basis of used resources (flight time per minute on the plane plus used time of the instructor). Yes, there you also have a contract with ATO, but not fixed, but variable (using pre-Paid as model for flying hours is stupid, sorry).

Part (6) is solely on the students discretion, even though flight schools try to press students.

Practical exam again is like (4) a matter without ATO, even though ATO tells different and/or try to get their fingers in there.


So, back to the question.
Yes, you can always change ATO during any stage of education. It is just an announcement to government that you did change ATO (most common done at the receiving ATO).
You may not get back money for the first stage up to theory exam, as up to theory exam is typically up front non-refundable payment.
At second stage, the only requirement for flying is "under the supervision of an ATO" - and that is any ATO. If you are on vacation, have all your paperworks with you and decide to take a lessons on your vacation spots airport and ATO, you are free to do so and they will sign it to your books. You do not need to do the flying hours at your ATO, ANY will do. There also is no obligation to "get signed off for solo" as I heard several times from students. Many ATO do that, mainly to be on the felt safe side, to celebrate some traditionals and to keep insurance quiet, but it is not a formal obligation. When you collected your hours you pack all you data and the theory exam to apply for practical exam. You can do this at that stage without an ATO contract, as you do not have to be enrolled at an ATO later than theory exam ;-). I know, quite trickay and most ATOs wont tell you and it may not be advisable to go that strict way, but it is possible and straightens out power balance between student and ATO.

[BillieBob]

ChickenHouse

What you describe may be the way it is in your little corner of Europe but it is not the norm and nor is it compliant with the EU Regulation. For example:

FCL.210 Training course
Applicants for a BPL, SPL or PPL shall complete a training course at an ATO. The course shall include theoretical knowledge and flight instruction appropriate to the privileges givenThere is no separation between the theoretical knowledge and the flight training, they are both elements of a single course of training. An ATO may elect to provide the theoretical knowledge training itself or to sub-contract to another training provider. In either case, it is the ATO's decision and not the student's as it is the ATO that is responsible for the training course. The exception is where an ATO is approved to provide flight training only and, in this case, it becomes the student's responsibility to find another ATO to provide the theoretical knowledge instruction.
FCL.025 Theoretical knowledge examinations for the issue of licences and ratings
Theoretical knowledge examinations for the issue of licences and ratings
Applicants shall only take the theoretical knowledge examination when recommended by the approved training organisation (ATO) responsible for the training, once they have completed the appropriate elements of the training course of theoretical knowledge instruction to a satisfactory standard.It is not simply a matter of the ATO certifying that the training is complete, it must also certify that a satisfactory standard has been reached and must recommend the candidate to sit the exam - it is not the candidate's choice.

By the same token, it is not simply a matter of building the flying hours and applying for the licence. The ATO that is conducting the course of training must recommend the candidate for the skill test, which means that he must first satisfy that ATO that he has achieved a suitable standard.
FCL.020 Student pilot
A student pilot shall not fly solo unless authorised to do so and supervised by a flight instructorWhat is this if not a requirement to be "signed off for solo"? Training must be conducted within an ATO and so it is the organisation's approved procedures that determine the exact requirements for solo authorisation.

[baleares]

Many thanks for all the input so far.

I did not pay all upfront but as per the terms of the contract which stipulated that payments must be made after a certain amount of hours. I made the last payment, of three at 20 hours.

Since that time I have become frustrated and disappointed with my flight instructor and I would like to continue the rest of my training elsewhere.

Regardless of whether or not I am entitled to a refund, I was told by my instructor that in order to officially register the hours I have I must continue with the same organisation I started with.

I was also told that, if I get any additional training with any other certified FI the hours cannot count.

[Whirlybird]

Let's keep it simple. Your instructor is talking rubbish.

I'm also not sure I'd want to train with an organisation/instructor that lies to its students this way.

Your choice....

[cockney steve]

@Whirlybird nice to see you posting again :ok:

@ Baleares Your instructor should sign off your logbook after each flight
A friend abandoned training due to family circumstances, Almost 10 years later he restarted lessons at a different training establishment....The CAA accepted all his "signed-off" hours in his logbook.

You have paid for your hours trained and exams passed. I would consider sticking it out until the Skills test, as you have already paid. Speak to the boss of the ATO. Tell your grievances and ask for a solution (change of instructor?)
If an agreeable solution is not found, Tell them you intend to write to the CAA.

Remember They are NOT Government officials,they are a business,selling Flying- training....If their service has deteriorated since you paid the last lump of money,it could possibly be seen as a constructive breach of contract.....Your local Trading Standards office is there to protect the public from rogue traders.
Consider visiting them.
Write down all that is concerning you, make it short and factual each point should be a short paragraph and the whole thing should be less than an A4 page
Presenta copy to the ATO and ask for their comments.
You then have a clear and concise case to put to the CAA and local Trading Standards.
If you were in the same position, taking driving lessons,what would you do?

Well, you ARE taking"driving lessons"...same consumer laws,just tighter regulation on ATO's and Student Pilots.
REMEMBER! You are the customer, you have a right to expect certain standards for your money....once you have paid for exams,lessons,etc. THEY ARE YOURS.
The ATO can bluster all it wants but they have to hand over the properly completed paperwork. (Instructor may modify his attitude if he knows that his behaviour has gone to the boss. there's no excuse for lying, no matter how desperate he is for the income from your training hours. )

Good luck, show them you will not accept being messed around.

[worldpilot]

I have become frustrated and disappointed with my flight instructorDon't let your current instructor ruin your enthusiasm for aviation.:=

You paid for flight training service and you're experiencing compatibility issues with your current instructor. Approach the ATO and file a request to substitute the instructor. Hopefully, the new one will be the right match for you.

However though, make sure you have credible arguments to substantiate your request to opt for another instructor. Elaborate your criteria for a suitable instructor and work with the ATO to address that.

With the proper attitude and approach, you should be able to proceed with your training and achieve your target.

WP

[Whirlybird]

worldpilot,
However though, make sure you have credible arguments to substantiate your request to opt for another instructor. Elaborate your criteria for a suitable instructor and work with the ATO to address that.

As someone who's in the past changed all sorts of professionals from flight instructor to doctor's practice, I'd say be careful with this one. People don't generally like their fellow professionals being criticised. Words like "communication breakdown", "personality clash" and similar often achieve better results than outright criticism of an individual. You don't get on with the guy; you want to change instructor. Shouldn't be a big deal. Happens all the time. Ask and see what happens. Save the big guns for later; chances are they won't be required. Flying schools generally like to keep their customers happy. Maybe baleares just picked the one bad egg in the box; let's hope so.

cockney steve - thankyou; it's nice to even be recognised on here still.

[foxmoth]

One thing the EU seems quite keen on is stopping restrictive practices and restraint of trade, I would think this would come under both these and there will be laws against it!:ok:

[vetflyer]

' Maybe baleares just picked the one bad egg in the box'

Perhaps they just don't gel

Perhaps the FI is good egg and Baleares is lazy & never prepared and / or useless ( not suggesting he is)

I had a student who blamed his previous , me and his subsequent FI on his PPP and lack of progress

Any way rant over

Baleares have chat with your FI and if still not happy the CFI and try and avoid any legal recourse suggestions

[worldpilot]

@Whirlybird

You don't get on with the guy; you want to change instructor.It is my assumption that for whatever reason, the chemistry between Beleares and the instructor is the problem.

It reminds me of a similar situation I experienced at OBA, Florida, where I did my flight training. The instructor was hesitating to sign me off to solo, apparently because my stall recovery wasn't satisfactory enough.
Well, I requested having another instructor to verify my stall recovery and the new instructor signed me off immediately after the verification process.

It wasn't in my interest to continue wasting my time with an instructor who is hesitant in his assessment of my capabilities. His approach wasn't addressing my target of becoming a safe and confident pilot. Instead, he was putting unnecessary hurdles in my way.

BTW, OBA Florida, was not easy to deal with. During my endeavor at OBA, there were massive complains and a lot of frustrated students leaving for whatever reasons (broken planes, weather, accommodation, instructors, scheduling issues, etc) and not able to attain their target. But with dedication and focus, difficulties could be appropriately addressed and target met.

WP

[150 Driver]

I changed twice (!).

Started at one flying school then FI lost his medical and there were no replacements. So I changed schools, but then after all theory exams and QXC for entirely work pressure related reasons took a break for a short while.

A few months later original FI was back in the air, and after talking to both I finalised my training and took skills test with first school.

Both CFI's certified the relevant parts of the logbooks pertinent to their time of training, and certified copies of the training records were exchanged each time so effectively the 'new' FI each time knew what had been covered by the previous. The CAA accepted this. Neither training organisation saw it as unusual.

So far as experience goes, one was a grass strip, the other a busy commercial airport so I feel I had the best of both worlds.

Undoubtedly, however, the change and the break in training were a major reason why my qualifying hours were higher than I'd originally hoped for which needs to be borne in mind when deciding to change.

All I would add is the importance of maintaining relationships. If I'd fallen out at either stage I wonder how the request for certifying the logbook would have gone down.

This was in 2013, the regulations may have changed since then of course.

Good luck

[baleares]

Just want to thank everyone for their input.

For the record, I am not lazy or inept! I just don't "get on" with my instructor.

I had a few lessons with the CFI and really improved during that period. Problem is there is only one instructor and the CFI and he is busy. I will talk to him but don't want to create a bad atmosphere!

This was an awful lot of money for me, and a life dream. I really want it to be safe, instructive but also fun!

best wishes to all

[Whirlybird]

baleares,

As I see it, the reasons why you don't get on don't matter. You don't get on, so this chap is not a good instructor for you. And....he lied to you! I see that as enough reason not to want to fly with him, putting everything else aside.

The CFI may be busy, but he won't want to lose a student to another school. Ask if you can fly with him, at any time that's convenient for him, and be prepared to wait. Don't be fobbed off with "busy"; it's an excuse. I've had busy instructors, and I've been a busy instructor, and you can fit people in at some point if it's necessary. I bet he'd rather do that than have you leave! I suspect he's just trying to give the other instructor some students, but you probably don't have to go along with that if you don't want to and insist that you can't. And don't worry about a bad atmosphere; this is your money and your decision.