UK CAA rip-off fee for PPL examiner renewal

[hughcant]

Looking ahead to the renewal of my PPL examiner certification, I have noted with horror that every 3 years not only do I need to attend a seminar (£160), fly with an examiner to check my competency (Fee ~ £200, aircraft hire ~£200), I then have to pay the CAA £338 to process the renewal application. This amount is the same as the initial application - and for what?

I wouldn't feel so begrudging if we as examiners got support from the Examiners Cell at Aviation House but when the EASA regulations came in, there was no guidance forthcoming. All we were told to do (by mass e mail) was to download a copy of the Examiners' Handbook which was already out of date! Furthermore, despite promises that it would be updated in 2013, surprise, surprise, it is now April 2014 and nothing has materialised. It really is a mystery as to what our 3 yearly fee is going towards.

I am not out to make money from examining ( a good thing too given the financial outlay) but to have to pay out a fee of £338 every 3 years to do a job that is actually is beneficial to the CAA - as they do not have to employ their own examiners - seems a bit of a kick in the proverbials. If I break even, I consider I am doing well.

Is there anyone out there who thinks it is time we challenged the size and frequency of the fee? I have already complained to the CAA but do not expect to get a coherent response. However, if there is any indication of support on this forum, I would be content to write to Andrew Haines, the CAA's CEO on behalf of us all.

[belowradar]

The CAA lost any credibility they may have had over the past year and most Examiners have seen what a joke the EASA transition was and how appallingly badly it was project managed and implemented. The CAA need to move from an "authority" to an administration and support our needs not create unnecessary red tape and cost so I wholeheartedly support your aim

It is amazing that so many professional pilots are unable to control the beast that is the CAA

[Mach Jump]

Sadly, we will never get anywhere with this whilst there are people queuing up to be Examiners. It has long been the policy of the CAA to get people to pay them for the'privilege' of doing their job for them wherever possible.:*
MJ:ok:

[Whopity]

Isn't that what they call a Franchising Fee?

[justmaybe]

It would ameliorate the situation if the FE re-authorisation was changed so that it could be done on experience on alternate revalidations - much the same as the FI revals. Certainly the re-issue fee is unjustifiably high and this, together with the above proposal, would be worth a try ( well..I live in hope!)

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Yes, write directly to Andrew Haines. He's currently bending over backwards to please Grant Shapps MP (who is an aircraft owner & PPL, although flying an N reg Saratoga) with a 'Red Tape Challenge' for GA. Licensing is included.

[S-Works]

If you think that's bad, I have to renew an FE and CRE and the CRE renewal is £1600 every 3 years plus the aircraft and has to be done with a staff examiner. At least my R and GRE get renewed in the same fee as the FE.....

[TheOddOne]

Sadly, we will never get anywhere with this whilst there are people queuing up to be Examiners

Well, that may be so in your part of the World...

I had thought about progressing to become an examiner (1,500 hr instructional, 7 years) though I think my experience marginal at best. Apparently, in the past, at my stage of development, one rang the CAA and said 'I've got 1,500 hours instructional and would like to become an examiner' and they sent back your approval in the post. Now, I'd have to do a seminar, an additional 2 days TK and practical, then a flight test or two with a CAA examiner. I reckon it would cost me over £1,500. With our current level of students and revals, I don't think I'd be able to stand the loss I'd make over the next 3 years - that's always assuming I'd pass, of course.

Personally, I think 1500 hrs is right on the bottom edge of experience for examining. As a reference, the CAA think that 250 hours is adequate! How does that work? There must be some hot-shot instructors out there who can examine after 250 hrs experience.

The Odd One

[Whopity]

Apparently, in the past, at my stage of development, one rang the CAA and said 'I've got 1,500 hours instructional and would like to become an examiner' and they sent back your approval in the post.Almost, it was actually AOPA you rang and you needed the endorsement of a club/school.the CAA think that 250 hours is adequate! How does that work?I don't think they do; it's EASA who think 250 is adequate, so that you can exercise one of your civil rights no doubt; the CAA have no say in the matter.

[Level Attitude]

Almost, it was actually AOPA you rang and you needed the endorsement of a club/school.This may have been true pre-JAR but, during the JAR years (almost said 'Good Old' must be an EASA affliction) you applied to the CAA, they then wrote back with an acceptance/rejection of your application dependant on their perceived need for Examiners in your geographical area. There was no charge unless you were accepted.


No need for a school/club endorsement for FE (was needed for GE) application but it did sometimes help overcome rejections based on geography.

[ifitaintboeing]

...the CAA have no say in the matter.

The CAA intend to conduct the AoC for a initial FE certificate from 08th April 2014. Manpower permitting, of course.

ifitaint...

[Whopity]

I meant they have no say in the pre entry requirements, not the outcome of the test. EASA has a different opinion regarding who can conduct the test!

[BigEndBob]

I became an examiner in 1997. Just phoned the CAA, they checked their records, said thats ok, paid the fee and they sent back the forms and handbook.
Read the relavant parts in the handbook and conducted tests.
No problems.
I used my 20 years of flying and 10 years instructing to make my judgements.
I think 5000 hrs instructing should be a minimum.

So now i have to attend some seminar where i pay, to be told information that should come to me direct in paper form from the CAA.
Last seminar i went to just came away with a stinking cold and lost a total of 3 days income!

[Bob Stinger]

I am currently part way through my efforts to become an examiner.
I sent off my initial application to the CAA which was approx £360 to which i then received a letter saying that i could go on the course.
The course cost £400 plus a flight so around £560 .
I have now been allocated a senior examiner, his fee £400.
On top of this there will be the aircraft costs for the test, that should if i am successful make the amount spent around £1700-1800 , i dare not think what the CAA will charge to then issue said piece of paper.
Had i have known it was going to cost this much i doubt i would have started it.

[GgW]

i dare not think what the CAA will charge to then issue said piece of paper.

You have already paid for it. You must have a EASA license. If you are still using your JAR license then you will have to pay to convert it.

[Mach Jump]

Hughcant

Notwithstanding my previous post, I fully support your efforts, and await the CAA response with interest.

The policy on appointment of PPL Examiners has varied over the years from being very restrictive, only having enough Examiners in any area to cover the number of tests required, to the recent more liberal attitude of allowing anyone who wants to be, to become an Examiner.

The problem we have now is that there are more examiners in most parts of the country than there are tests to do, and the result is that most of the tests are carried out by the Examiners who are perceived to be the 'least stringent'.

Dare I suggest that the CAA may be 'gold plating' the new EASA requirements with the intention of reducing the total number of Examiners, increaing revenue, and creating work for their erstwhile colleagues? :*

Oh, did I just say that out loud? :uhoh:

Wash my mouth out with carbolic soap! :eek:


MJ:ok:

[Whopity]

I have now been allocated a senior examiner, his fee £400.Interesting, most charge around £250!

[ifitaintboeing]

The course cost £400 plus a flight so around £560 .

Interesting. Assuming its for the FE PPL, the course should now have at least two flights - see Standards Document 21.

ifitaint...

[Bob Stinger]

Ifitaintboeing there was a sim flight as well .

[Whopity]

the course should now have at least two flights - see Standards Document 21.That's what I believed untill I read the AMC!

AMC1 FCL.1015
(b) The course should last:
(1) for the FE and FIE, at least 1 day, divided into theoretical and practical training;
(2) for other examiners, at least 3 days, divided into theoretical training (1 day) and practical training in an FFS conducting role played proficiency checks and skill tests (at least 2 days). Then under CONTENT it says:(5) For an initial examiner certificate, practical training should include the examination of the test profile sought, consisting of the conduct of at least two test or check profiles in the role of examiner (these two tests or checks profiles can be performed in the same simulator session),This appears to relate to "other examiners" not the FE(PPL).

[ifitaintboeing]

The way that section is laid out, AMC1 FCL.1015 para (d)(5) which you have quoted appears to be applicable to all examiners, which I guess is why the statement is in Standards Document 21 requiring two test or check profiles.

ifitaint...

[Whopity]

That's how it reads, but you cannot physically do 2 tests as described and the theoretical training as specified in (b)(1) in one day!

[ifitaintboeing]

As I'm sure you know, it's not the only bit of EASA which doesn't yet make sense.

UK FIE course - 5 days: EASA FIE course? How about comparing EASA PPL Skill Test and SEP Proficiency Check tolerances? LAPL Proficiency Check content? How about conducting a combined Instructor AoC and SEP LPC?

ifitaint...

[Whopity]

I think we have to accept that there will be CAA fees by Government decree however; the major issue is the total inconsistency in the fees applied. A day of a CAA Staff FE's time can be charged at:
FI Test £202
PPL or IMC rating Issue £195
IMC Prof Check £202
Medical Flight Test £181
IRE £1109
CRE £1641
FIE £781
Senior Examiner (SE)£1109

The entire document ORS5 No 289 is riddled with inconsistencies. The CAA has never explained the breakdown of any of its charges.

[hughcant]

To all those who responded to my post, thank you.:D I have included your comments and suggestions in my letter to Andrew Haines.

:ugh:I appreciate it feels like we are banging our collective heads against a brick wall but if we simply sit back and take no action when action is needed, then we are no better than those who have the power to make changes where no changes are required.