modes S transponder

[rans6andrew]

Currently I have no transponder in my aircraft, a two seat 3 axis microlight. This has not restricted my flying all over to any real degree. Last year we went almost to Madrid, from the UK, without any trouble.

Apart from the obvious financial outlay, what are the cons to fitting a modes S/ADS-B transponder to your aircraft? I realise that every geek in the south of the country will be tracking your every move and the air traffic folk will know who you are if you bust anyone's zone. Any other risks?

Now, what are the benefits? I am having some difficulty justifying the outlay of cash. I understand the pros of the listening squawk around some zones and the easier access to the Channel Islands that a squawk affords but £1600 is still £1600 pounds, a lot of pocket money.

What are your thoughts? Have you a transponder in your aircraft?

Thanks,

Rans6andrew.

[mad_jock]

Well from a pilot who flys an aircraft with TCAS fitted.

The machine will tell us if we are going to hit you in class G and tell us what to do so as to not hit you.

And there are quite a few GA solutions now which aid SEP pilots also avoid you.

I suppose its value will be directly linked to if you have had a scare or not.

[piperarcher]

I think all aircraft (except perhaps something exempt for historical reasons) should have at least mode c for the reasons mad_jock mentions. I see it as 2 cars driving down a dark country lane, and one driver choses to not fit headlamps to his car. Having headlights, like a transponder helps (though I accept not guarantees) others see you and preserve both lives.

[Rod1]

French rules say you must have a transponder to enter class D. This makes visiting France a pain with no transponder. This rule is not well enforced, but if you get ramp checked…

The Dutch will not allow you above 1200 ft without one and there are also TMZ’s.

TMZ’s in the UK are becoming more common and a mode s is the best solution.

I have a pcas unit which will see you coming so you might live longer.

Cons apart from the cost are the weight – the Trig TT21 is probably your best bet. You can fit the unit yourself (I have fitted several for friends with no issues.)

It is likely to become easy to do ADS-b out in a few weeks and I suspect that over the next few years this will become a big benefit.

Rod1
Trig TT31 mode S with ADS-b ready to go…

[Piper.Classique]

Makes transit of controlled airspace simpler. Flight safety? Not convinced personally. I reckon a Flarm would do more good. They do have an off switch ;)

[John R81]

If you carry a radio and seek a basic service then infringement is less likely - the controller will often "remind" you if it looks like you are getting close.

Personally, I have Mode S transponder and I will always (if I can, W. Scotland below 5,000 ft can be difficult) have someone on the radio providing a basic service or information

[Renmure]

I have a Mode S transponder in my flexwing while mainly flying around sunny Scotland

Certainly makes transiting controlled airspace simpler. There are also enough fast jets zooming around at low level that I want to give myself the best chance I can of not being hit by them (and others)

[trevs99uk]

Earlier this year there was mentions that a manufactures (with help from NATS)were developing a handheld Transponder.
And they were looking for the end of the year for approval....
The device would be about the size of a large GPS.
A price of appox £ 500 was mentioned.

Kinetics tried to develope the LAST device a few years back.
Basically the same a hand held transponder but the CAA would,nt approve it.

Now its up to EASA to approve...


http://www.chinaga.com/bank/4499.pdf
ACS Avionics (http://www.acs-avionics.com/products.html)

[patowalker]

French rules say you must have a transponder to enter class D. This makes visiting France a pain with no transponder. This rule is not well enforced, but if you get ramp checked.

LFAT: Squawk 1234
G-ABCD: Negative transponder.
LFAT: OK, follow the coast and call me abeam Boulogne

The next call elicits landing instructions, effectively granting authority to enter class D without a transponder. Would a ramp check not take account of that?

[Johnm]

If you carry a radio and seek a basic service then infringement is less likely - the controller will often "remind" you if it looks like you are getting close.

Personally, I have Mode S transponder and I will always (if I can, W. Scotland below 5,000 ft can be difficult) have someone on the radio providing a basic service or information

Not a basic service :ugh:

Traffic Service might get you some info, a basic service is useless unless you want information.

[rans6andrew]

thanks to everyone that responded. I had also heard a rumour about a cheapy miniature transponder ......... I think I will wait a while and watch this space.

One of the advantages of microlights is their acceptance in France without transponders. The French decided not to make them compulsory for their microlights some time ago.

Rans6.........

[fisbangwollop]

Johns,..Traffic Service might get you some info, a basic service is useless unless you want information.

Wrong, I can only give you a basic service at Scottish Info but I also have data from your transponder to hopefully help you avoid infringing controlled airspace......so don't forget even with a Basic service you are being watched. :cool:

[Rod1]

“even with a Basic service you are being watched.”

Is that guaranteed FisBang? I understood that the definition of a basic service was that you were not guaranteed to be identified, let alone watched? My local airport controls backed that up at a talk I attended some time ago (YOU WILL NOT be identified was the message) but would love to hear that this has changed.

Rod1

[dash6]

The major risk is probably not looking out,as you feel protected by a web of electronics.

[chevvron]

Both London and Scottish Info are operated by FISOs not controllers, and hence they are simply not licensed to provide radar services.

[xrayalpha]

However, the FISOs can - and in Scotland do - ask for information from you in such a way that it is obvious that you are about to bust controlled airspace.

So, yes, they cannot say: our radar shows you about to enter controlled airspace, please turn left.

They can say: your route takes you close to Glasgow's Class D, are you aware of line features that will help you identify the zone boundary (or some such words!)

I an sure the good folk will come up with some real world examples!

[airpolice]

I realise that every geek in the south of the country will be tracking your every move and the air traffic folk will know who you are if you bust anyone's zone. Any other risks?

What exactly are the risks in this?

I suspect that you busting airspace is more of a danger than you getting caught.

If the trace from a NATS feed allows the CAA to identify you and issue words of advice, is that not safer for all of us than you hiding?

[rans6andrew]

Quote:
I realise that every geek in the south of the country will be tracking your every move and the air traffic folk will know who you are if you bust anyone's zone. Any other risks?
What exactly are the risks in this?

Well:

It is worse than having your address visible on your luggage labels. If you are traceable then when you are out flying it is easy to determine, via G-INFO, where your house is and probably unattended, your car is probably parked at your airfield and unattended etc.

A quick look at a friends registration, on gurgle, brought up the days he went flying last month from flightradar24. I guess, without much more effort I could find the tracks of where he went.

It is just too much big brother for my comfort.

Rans6....

[stevelup]

I've just removed my tinfoil hat in order to make this post.

If someone was casing your house to decide whether or not to break in, they would do it by... parking nearby and watching...

To imagine that someone would use an ADS-B receiver, look up the details on G-INFO and build a pattern of movements in order to decide when to break into a house is quite fantastical!

[Rod1]

“To imagine that someone would use an ADS-B receiver, look up the details on G-INFO and build a pattern of movements in order to decide when to break into a house is quite fantastical!”

I agree – it is quite farcical that anyone with an ADS-B receiver would see any of us, as it is, currently, practically illegal to emit ADS-B in the UK from a typical “GA” aircraft. But all pilots must know that, right!

Since the war there has not been one person killed due to infringements, but we have killed over 150 people due to collisions OCAS. If we can get ADS-B “allowed” then we can save some lives. Probably have very low impact on infringements as all ADS-B out comes from mode s transponders using ES so would be visible to ATC anyway.

Rod1

[riverrock83]

Quote:
I realise that every geek in the south of the country will be tracking your every move and the air traffic folk will know who you are if you bust anyone's zone.

The "every geek tracking you" thing only works if you have a (certified) GPS device linked into the transponder. When the GPS is linked in, your location is output through ADS-B, which anyone (including TCAS type systems) can pick up.
Since you are talking about a microlight, you aren't going to have this, so all they will get (using their own equipment) is your identifier (so they know you are within transponder range).

I doubt that Nats publish their secondary radar derived data to all and sundry (otherwise airports wouldn't pay huge fees to get access to it). I don't think I can see any GA on ADS-B flight data | NATS (http://www.nats.co.uk/about-us/what-we-do/atc-explained/live-flight-data/) (although there are some higher end GA aircraft with hooked up certified GPSs and ADS-B out).

That linked LAST device is interesting - but the CAA / EASA will need to change the regs unless the GPS device contained in it is certified (not sure what that entails). I believe the last version that someone tried to release didn't get through the various hurdles. Fingers crossed though... Our Mode C transponder doesn't want to talk to an altitude encoder at the moment so is really Mode A. Hasn't caused us any airspace issues yet, but its on the list to be "looked at". If a cheap Mode S comes along we will probably jump!

[riverrock83]

That L.A.S.T product - I've just found a reference from 2006 to it and confirmed that the previously linked PDF is dated 2006. Reference here: Transponders for GA, a pain or a gain? « The Digital Aviator (http://www.thedigitalaviator.com/blog/?p=93)

Its maybe the one I'd heard about that didn't go anywhere / had problems?

There is also no reference to it on the named company's website.

Does anyone know anything from more recently?

[Rod1]

"Does anyone know anything from more recently? "

The project was abandoned when flight testing showed the reduced power was not up to the job, reducing the detection range way below requirements. Long time ago now but was covered in one of the Mode S consultation meetings.

Rod1

[riverrock83]

"Does anyone know anything from more recently? "

The project was abandoned when flight testing showed the reduced power was not up to the job, reducing the detection range way below requirements. Long time ago now but was covered in one of the Mode S consultation meetings.

Rod1

Thanks Rod1. I thought I'd remembered something like that from a previous discussion.

[RatherBeFlying]

For a Mode S box like the Trig, all you need for ADS-B is a super fancy certified GPS box that costs a whole bunch more than the Trig.

The set up of ADS-B include things like wingspan and antenna location so aircraft on parallel taxiways won't cross wingtips.

Is that level of certification needed for GA away from major airport taxiways? Your off the shelf GPS will do quite nicely in the air and give the big guys sufficient warning to stay well clear of you. Will IAOPA get the ear of the regulators on this one -- stay tuned. More likely the electronics people will develop an ADS-B box at a GA affordable price before the regulators come around.

The PowerFlarm gives very good information on ADS-B; so, you do have timely information to get out of their way.

[Rod1]

I ran a test for the LAA on ADS-B out using a Trig mode s and an uncertified GPS. We used a PowerFlarm to detect this on another aircraft. I had to get permission for the CAA to run the test and it had to follow strict guidelines. The ADS-B test was a big success. I understand the rules on ADS-B may be relaxed very soon thanks to pressure form a number of organisations. If the changes come in and you have a Mode S transponder that supports ES (almost no Garmin units in the UK will do this but just about everything else will) then on a permit machine you will be able to connect the RS232 cable and “go”! It will be more complex and expensive on C of A as you will have to get an avionic engineer to do the work and probably will still have to pay a mod fee.

Rod1

[fisbangwollop]

ChevronBoth London and Scottish Info are operated by FISOs not controllers, and hence they are simply not licensed to provide radar services.

Correct. What both London and Scottish info sectors do have is what we refer to as a FID "Flight Information Display". OK it's a radar but cannot be used as that. What it is designed to do is assist the FISO'S in hopefully preventing any Airspace infringements from aircraft receiving a basic service from those units.

Let's assume an aircraft advises me he is routing from Oban to Cumbernauld.....at no time will that aircraft ever be identified by me but from the data the aircraft has passed me I notice one of my conspiquety 7401 squawk heading into the Glasgow control zone despite the aircraft telling me he intends to avoid it. My actions would be to pass the details to Glasgow, then transfer the aircraft to Glasgow to let the Glasgow controller pass information to the pilot to either turn him away from their control zone or give him a clearance to enter.

As FISO'S as Chevron said we are not licenced to use the Radar as such so cannot give instructions ......:cool:

[rans6andrew]

you don't need to monitor and build up a pattern of movements to guess that I am unlikely to be in two places at once. The time taken to land, taxi, shutdown, tidy aircraft, put it away, wash hands, make coffee, fill in logbooks, chill a bit, pack car and drive home is more than long enough to turn a house over and scarper.

Rans6....

[riverrock83]

I ran a test for the LAA on ADS-B out using a Trig mode s and an uncertified GPS. We used a PowerFlarm to detect this on another aircraft. I had to get permission for the CAA to run the test and it had to follow strict guidelines. The ADS-B test was a big success. I understand the rules on ADS-B may be relaxed very soon thanks to pressure form a number of organisations. If the changes come in and you have a Mode S transponder that supports ES (almost no Garmin units in the UK will do this but just about everything else will) then on a permit machine you will be able to connect the RS232 cable and “go”! It will be more complex and expensive on C of A as you will have to get an avionic engineer to do the work and probably will still have to pay a mod fee.

Rod1
Sounds good.
What this might also do, is allow Trig (or someone else) to add a GPS chip directly into the transponder, so it can all be done on one unit. Might need programmed per aircraft to allow entry of identifiers, or there would be a colossal number of dip switches to fiddle with...

[RatherBeFlying]

The LAA experiments sound very interesting. My bureaucracy pessimism has taken a minor hit that will turn out major if us GA folks can use a less fancy GPS unit.

What this might also do, is allow Trig (or someone else) to add a GPS chip directly into the transponder, so it can all be done on one unit. Might need programmed per aircrWhat this might also do, is allow Trig (or someone else) to add a GPS chip directly into the transponder, so it can all be done on one unit. Might need programmed per aircraft to allow entry of identifiers, or there would be a colossal number of dip switches to fiddle with...

I suspect Trig has decided to leave the GPS finagling to others in favor of putting out quite a nice unit today.

No dip switches in the Trig -- it's all nicely done with menus on the unit.

[trevs99uk]

If anybody goes on the internet and looks at Flight Radar 24 occasionally now you can see the odd light aircraft popup..

[trevs99uk]

Ref the LAST device..

As i understand it the problem with the LAST device was that due to low power output (being Battery powered) the signal would only go out a short distance (approx 30 miles) where as the rules that define what a transponder is are really aimed at the Commercial airliner world which requires the signal to go out hundreds of miles. And at the time the CAA therefore would not certificate it, but things have now changed and certification is controlled by EASA...

There was mentions at the Friedrichschafen event earlier this year that a UK manufacturer was going to release a certified handheld device by the end of the year for around £500.00 and that its development was being sponsored by NATS...

To do this there was mentions that Eurocontrol were going to change the rules so a lower powered device for general aviation would be allowed.

[ShyTorque]

conspiquety

Never mind Mode S transponders, what a cracking word that one is! :D

I always wondered how those north of the border would spell conspicuity! :ok: