Flying Microlight on PPL

[Padge]

Anyone know if this is allowed or do I need to bolt an extra rating on to my EASA PPL?

Apologies if this has come up already, I don't have the time to do a search of all the threads.

[mad_jock]

Currently you can in theory fly it on your EASA PPL with no additional training.

But I would strongly advise that you have some with a weightshift.

It has be know for very experienced SEP pilots to jump in an have a shot.

The ones I know it didn't end in tears but did require a change of underpants when they eventually got it back on the ground.

[chevvron]

I read a report once of a very experienced 3-axis instructor who, on jumping into a weightshift for the first time, took off, had engine failure, pushed instead of pulled, stalled, both killed. I think it was at Long Marston early '90s.

[mad_jock]

Seems very strange they don't put down weightshift as a mandatory differences training to be honest.

[BEagle]

Anyone know if this is allowed or do I need to bolt an extra rating on to my EASA PPL?

See CAP804:

3.13 Exercising the privileges on Microlight aeroplanes on the basis of an SEP(Land)Class Rating

The holder of a UK issued licence or any Part-FCL licence with an SEP rating, may, subject to differences training on the appropriate class with a suitably qualified instructor, exercise the privileges of their licence on microlight aircraft. However, any experience gained in microlight aircraft cannot be counted towards the flying experience necessary to maintain the full SEP or TMG privileges.

This also applies to the LAPL(A):

1.7 An LAPL(A) does not have an SEP rating, but does have SEP privileges endorsed, therefore may be rendered valid for Microlight aeroplanes, subject to satisfying the above (differences training) requirement.


Seems very strange they don't put down weightshift as a mandatory differences training to be honest.

They do, but it's poorly worded in CAP804:

3.11.2 Microlight pilots wishing to convert between weightshift and 3-axis microlight control systems, or to a microlight with more than one engine, shall undertake differences training given by a flight instructor entitled to instruct on the microlight aeroplane on which instruction is being given. The training must be completed, recorded in the pilot’s personal flying log book and endorsed and signed by the instructor conducting the differences training.

[Padge]

Just been to look at a small aerodromo north of Madrid and had a chat with one of the instructors there.

Seems like there is some admin to do in order to get flying the Tecnam P96 here in spain on a UK PPL.

[mikehallam]

BTW.

There are plenty of three axis microlights too (still need a bit of training after GA).
So why do the above correspondents jump to conclusions, don't they know what's what ?

mike hallam.

[Whopity]

Seems very strange they don't put down weightshift as a mandatory differences training to be honest.That would have required a Law Change that had the potential to open a bag of worms which the CAA did not wish to disturb. As there were no major safety issues they left well alone, but did place additional requirements on later licences. Remember, initially no licence was required at all to fly a Microlight!

Seems like there is some admin to do in order to get flying the Tecnam P96 here in Spain on a UK PPL. A number of European States have entirely separate arrangements for microlights, in France they have a Microlight Licence so you need to check locally.

[Piper.Classique]

There is no direct link in France between SEP and microlights,(any category) but as there is no minimum requirement for the microlight licence and a PPL exempts you from the written papers it isn't a big problem. Declaration of start of training to the DGAC, enough flying to satisfy your microlight instructor, test. Job done.
Once you have one category any of the others can be done by differences training and test.

Microlight to SEP is less easy. No concessions, do the 45 hour minimum, writtens, x/c and test as if you have never flown at all. But in fact most people who do that get their licence in the minimum time, so there is some practical advantage.

A UK microlight pilot coming to France would not have any problems, except maybe doing the radio licence (which is not obligatory, but useful if you want to do any touring)

The french microlight licence is for life, with a GP medical required (once) only if you wish personal accident cover through the FFPLUM. It's not required by the DGAC.

[Padge]

However, any experience gained in microlight aircraft cannot be counted towards the flying experience necessary to maintain the full SEP or TMG privileges.

Great! That blows the Tecnam P92 and that aerodrome out of the water then. I wanted to maintain my hours flying that aircraft. Awesome little aerodrome as well.

How is that right? How is the experience of flight in a Tecnam in no way the same as that in a C172?

Truely thankful for you pointing this out by the way. The CAP804 is a pain to navigate.

:)

[trevs99uk]

ref this bit --

However, any experience gained in microlight aircraft cannot be counted towards the flying experience necessary to maintain the full SEP or TMG privileges.

AOPA are pushing EASA and CAA for changes, so that some hours flown on microlights count towards maintaing SEP/TMG privileges.

once EASA get around to sorting it out....

[Rolland]

Just been to look at a small aerodromo north of Madrid and had a chat with one of the instructors there.

Hi Padge, I'm looking for a flying a school in Madrid. Would you mind telling me which school you're referring to?

[Genghis the Engineer]

A thought or two.

(1) Basically the only thing close to a European consensus about microlights is the definition (and that is still a bit tenuous). CAP804 applies to the UK only in this regard, and any other country will have its own rules.

(2) P92 versus C172. Both are perfectly good safe flying machines, but the speeds and attitudes are somewhat different - a shorthouse like me can actually see over the P92 instrument panel for a start. The Technam will need about a quarter of the runway to take-off or land that the C172 does, will have a similar climb rate, then be slightly slower in the cruise. To land, microlights bleed speed off much quicker, and hence need a somewhat different style in the approach and landing to a heavier aeroplane like the Cessna. Basic airmanship and the fun of flying don't change of course, but conversion training in both directions, regardless of legalities, is a survival necessity.

(3) As a general rule, assume differences training when going down in weight, and a skill test when going up.

G

[C42]

I have a question (hopefully BEagle can answer)

I have a NPPL with (M) and (SSEA) and a JAA PPL SEP

My renewal is up soon but I fly various aircraft (mostly my RV8) but I also fly my microlight which is a twin (it's also turbine powered)

Now I can only legally fly it under my NPPL (M) as its a twin and I dont have a PPL twin or turbine rating and the (M) has no restrictions on number of power plants or type.

I have been keeping my NPPL up to date and signed off seperately even though they are also on my JAA PPL as ratings, but what happens when I get the new licence?

Sorry for the dumb question but none of my local examiners can answer that.

Cheers

[Genghis the Engineer]

What type is that? I'm struggling to think of any twin turbine microlight. Twins yes, very small turbine twin yes, but a microlight?

?

[Jan Olieslagers]

A Colomban Cri-Cri, perhaps? But I am not sure whether that one classifies as a microlight.

[patowalker]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Je2DDkRuQZ0&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJe2DDkRuQZ0%26feature%3Dyoutu.be

[xrayalpha]

C42,

Simple. You tick the box on the JAR to EASA licence form that says you also want to keep/acquire an NPPL.

[riverrock83]

I thought that on that aircraft the engines would be so close to the aircraft centre line that it could be flown under an SEP rating. In the UK a Cri-Cri can be flown with an SEP rating...

Don't know about turbine though. You have a distinct shortage of pistons...

[C42]

sounds to easy! Im sure its not that simple, goes against all these Civil Servants believe in!

well don on the video patowalker ;)

[Sam Rutherford]

Thought I would check this is still valid - flying a G reg (3-axis) microlight using a UK issued EASA CPL, in the UK?

My old brown licence had my weightshift hours in/on it - but no idea where it now is!

[Genghis the Engineer]

My view would be - get checked out by a suitably qualified instructor, have him sign off microlight differences training in your logbook, then good practice is met, and you don't need to think hard about whether the legalities were necessary or not (but I think that they were).

G

[Prop swinger]

Presumably you have a valid SEP on the CPL, in which case logbook evidence of 3 axis differences training is required. Your weightshift experience doesn't count for 3 axis microlights.

[Sam Rutherford]

Whilst GTE's advice is very valid, just to understand and more and replying to PS: My SEP stuff is all good, but does my current 3 axis experience (about 40 hrs/year) with my French microlight licence count as 'logbook evidence'? Got an Avid 4 - can't recommend it enough! :)

[excrab]

So let me make sure I'm not missing anything... you can fly a single seat 3 axis microlight as an unregulated aircraft in the uk without a licence, but a PPL /CPL/ ATPL holder with however many hours on 3 axis aircraft needs differences training to fly a 3 axis microlight? Years ago SEP had an upper weight limit but no lower weight limit. When did that change?

[Prop swinger]

... you can fly a single seat 3 axis microlight as an unregulated aircraft in the uk without a licence No, you can't. SSDR refers to the certification status of the aircraft, the pilot still needs to be licensed.

does my current 3 axis experience (about 40 hrs/year) with my French microlight licence count as 'logbook evidence'?Probably? ANO Schedule 8, Part 2, Chapt 2
(3) If the aeroplane has
(a)three axis controls and the holder’s previous training and experience has only been in an aeroplane with flexwing or weightshift controls;
(b)flexwing or weightshift controls and the holder’s previous training and experience has only been in an aeroplane with three axis controls; or
(c)more than one engine,
before exercising the privileges of the rating the holder must complete appropriate differences training.

(4) The differences training mentioned in paragraph (3) must be given by a flight instructor entitled to instruct on the aeroplane on which the training is being given, recorded in the holder’s personal flying logbook and endorsed and signed by the instructor conducting the training.

[Sam Rutherford]

Well, I guess the issuance of a French microlight licence demonstrates perfectly:

(4) The differences training mentioned in paragraph (3) must be given by a flight instructor entitled to instruct on the aeroplane on which the training is being given, recorded in the holder’s personal flying logbook and endorsed and signed by the instructor conducting the training.

[Forfoxake]

On a similar theme, I currently fly light (LAA permit) aircraft on a LAPL (A).

I understand that "Article 150 of ANO 2016 requires the holder of an EASA licence with a valid Single Engine Piston Class Rating to complete differences training with an appropriately qualified Instructor prior to flying as pilot in command of a microlight aeroplane. This includes three axis microlights as well as weightshift microlights."

However, my question is, does this differences training have to take place after the issue of the LAPL (A) or does it still count if it took place earlier?

My differences training to three axis microlights took place many years ago when I had a CAA PPL(A). I subsequently became a microlight instructor for three years, although I only flew three axis microlights.

However, I have not flown a three axis microlight for several years. Do I have to do differences training again to fly a three axis microlight on my LAPL(A)?

PS It might be sensible anyway, particularly in an unfamiliar type, but I am unsure of the legal position.

[Whopity]

We are now into a Mish Mash of UK and EASA regulations. Differences training for an EASA Class rating is covered in FCL.710 If the variant has not been flown within a period of 2 years following the differences training, further differences training or a proficiency check in that variant shall be required to maintain the privileges, except for types or variants within the single-engine piston and TMG class ratings. Of course there is no Class Rating in a LAPL but the inference is that if your experience predates the licence or rating you have grandfather rights.
Art 150 requires:(6) A Part-FCL licence with single-engine piston aeroplane privileges is not deemed to be rendered valid for a microlight aeroplane unless the holder of the licence has undergone differences training in accordance with Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Schedule 8, appropriate for a microlight aeroplane class rating. Ch2 Part 2 States:Microlight class rating
(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) to (6) and to the conditions of the licence in which it is included, a microlight class rating entitles the holder to act as pilot in command of any microlight aeroplane.
(2) If the current certificate of revalidation for the rating is endorsed “single seat only” the holder is only entitled to act as pilot in command of any single seat microlight aeroplane.
(3) If the aeroplane has—
(a) three axis controls and the holder’s previous training and experience has only been in an aeroplane with flexwing or weightshift controls;
(b) flexwing or weightshift controls and the holder’s previous training and experience has only been in an aeroplane with three axis controls; or
(c) more than one engine,
before exercising the privileges of the rating the holder must complete appropriate differences training.
(4) The differences training mentioned in paragraph (3) must be given by a flight instructor entitled to instruct on the aeroplane on which the training is being given, recorded in the holder’s personal flying logbook and endorsed and signed by the instructor conducting the training.
There is no mention of any time limit for this training so as long as you have log book evidence of having legally flown the variant then that should suffice.

[Sam Rutherford]

Also no geographical/jurisdiction limit, so your Thai flexwing sign-off counts! (for example)

[Forfoxake]

We are now into a Mish Mash of UK and EASA regulations. Differences training for an EASA Class rating is covered in FCL.710 Of course there is no Class Rating in a LAPL but the inference is that if your experience predates the licence or rating you have grandfather rights.
Art 150 requires: Ch2 Part 2 States:
There is no mention of any time limit for this training so as long as you have log book evidence of having legally flown the variant then that should suffice.

Thank you very much!