PPL requirements confusion

[baz76]

I took my first lesson towards PPL here in uk. The instructor asked me to book 4 hours for the next lesson where 3 hours would be spent on the theory i guess. and one hour on aircraft.

I want to know is this a requirement? I think I can prepare my self for the 7 written exams and can just sit them when I am ready. I thought the main requirement i min 45 hours flying. I want to go there to fly and not to read the theory with him

please guide me

[RTN11]

There are 7 written subjects, and you will need to learn a lot of theory.

There is more to flying than just moving the controls for 45 hours. You need to learn how to plan a flight correctly, manage all the systems and fuel planning, and interpret weather forecasts and learn how to read the weather systems yourself.

If you go to a flying lesson with the attitude that you don't want any theory, you won't get very far at all. For you first proper lesson, 3 hours theory sounds a little excessive, I'd imagine the 4 hours would be 1.5 hours theory, break for it all to sink in, 30 min pre-flight brief, 1 hour flight, 30 min debrief. After that, lessons would probably be a two hour slot with just 30 min pre flight brief, one hour flight, 30 min de-brief.

On your first lesson there is a lot to take in, showing you the aircraft on the ground and what the controls are actually doing, and starting to familiarise you with what everything looks like so that in the future you can spot if it's broken or something is unusual. This all takes time, and the more exposure you have the better so get used to it.

After this first flight, you will probably be left to self study for the 7 written papers, getting any additional groudschool when not flying if required, not necessarily as standard, the pre-flight briefs will cover the lessons you will cover, as well as some of the theory required but certainly not all of it, so get your head in the books.

[baz76]

Thanks for the reply. I think I was not able to get my point across to you.

This is all very expensive so I wanted to confirm that I am not being lead to believe that I have to do the theory with the instructor for 3 hours this next week and again 2 hours the week after.

Am I right in assuming that 45 hours requirement doest not consist of just flying? it includes theory as well

[Piper.Classique]

Am I right in assuming that 45 hours requirement doest not consist of just flying? it includes theory as well


No. 45 hours flying.

Minimum. Most people end up doing a bit more.

[stevelup]

I don't believe you should have to pay for any mandatory ground school. I certainly didn't.

I had a briefing before each flight, and a de-briefing afterwards. The rest was self-study.

Just to be clear, the 45 hours is flight time. Few people do it in 45 hours - expect it to take longer! You will obviously need the following in addition to this:-

1) Many, many hours of self-study for the exams
2) A quality briefing before each lesson

You need to find out if your school is trying to charge you for exam related ground school. This really should be optional as most people are capable of dealing with this themselves.

Clearly the briefings before each flight are not optional. My school did not charge for these, but I know some do.

The amount of ground school someone needs is clearly going to vary depending upon ability.

[RTN11]

If the instructor has asked you to book 4 hours as an intro with groundschool, there is a slim chance he may want to charge you for 1-2 hours of groundschool. Most schools would not charge for this, but having said that ex1 & 2 of the PPL are both ground exercises so I see no reason why they should not charge for them, your first flight was ex3 and you were happy enough to pay for that.

The normal way a school works is you pay for the flying time, which is taken from when you took the brakes off to when you set them again after the flight. So for a typical flight you would book a 2 hour slot, initially go in the classroom with the instructor for 15-20 mins for a brief on what you are about to cover in flight, then go out to the aircraft and spend 10 mins checking it and doing paperwork, fly for an hour, then 30 mins of debrief and paperwork.

In this two hour slot you would only pay for the time flown, whatever it is. I say 1 hours as this is typical, but if you only flew for 45 or 50, that's all you pay, same as if you fly for 1:20 that's what you pay.

As this is your first proper lesson, it is a bit of an exception with the additional groundschool, so your school may or may not charge, but all other pre-flight briefs should be included.

Any additional groundschool you request, for example if you specifically wanted some tuition on Air Law in your own time, I would expect this to be charged at £20-£25 per hour, after all the instructor has to make a living, and the school has to pay the electricity bill.

To be clear, the 45 hour minimum is flight time, not groundschool or any other tuition. Be aware that this is a very tight minimum, and a far more realistic figure is 55-60 hours.

[baz76]

Thank you very much steve.

[baz76]

Thanks RTN

[mad_jock]

The first lesson is what we call an air experence flight. And its not meant o be very heavy.

The second lesson we go through paper work associated with the flight and aircraft. How to check the aircraft before flight. How to read the wx and notams and where to get them.

I would find out if they are charging for the 4 hours instructor time.

If they arn't and you only have to pay for the 1 hour flight you have found yourself a cracking school and a cracking instructor.

If they are intending you to pay for the 4 hours tell them that you will be taking your custom else where.

[BackPacker]

In this two hour slot you would only pay for the time flown, whatever it is. I say 1 hours as this is typical, but if you only flew for 45 or 50, that's all you pay, same as if you fly for 1:20 that's what you pay.

My club works differently - and a bit fairer in my opinion. Instructors are paid per block hour, regardless of whether they are doing groundschool or flying. Aircraft are paid by the tacho or hobbs (depends on the aircraft). So at the end of a typical lesson block you've got to pay for two hours of instructor time, and approximately one hour of aircraft flying time. Plus landing fees of course.

But regardless of the exact charging scheme: You are right to say the PPL is not cheap. It's best to spend a few minutes very early on with an instructor or admin person, and ask for a detailed explanation on how things are charged, and what the costs are going to be assuming you're a normal student and finish in about 55-60 hours flying time.

[Heston]

So you've done exercise 3 - that was say 1 hour in the air and another hour of breifing and de-breifing - a 2 hour slot that you paid for as 1 hour of flight instruction.

I'd say your next lesson will be 2hours of ground school to cover the ground based exercises 1 and 2, charged at ground school rate, and another hour in the air with its breifing and de-breifing hour - which you will pay for as 1 hour of flight instruction. Total of 4 hours.

Thats how I do it anyway.

You can do all the theory learning for the exams yourself without any ground school, but I wouldn't advise it - best way is to do it mostly yourself with an occasional hour with the instructor to help you with bits you may find not so well explained in the books.

[Whopity]

Under the new EU rules the requirement for theoretical training is becoming more formal:
An approved course shall comprise at least 100 hours of theoretical knowledge instruction. This theoretical knowledge instruction provided by the ATO should include a certain element of formal classroom work but may include also such facilities as interactive video, slide or tape presentation, computer-based training and other media distance learning courses. The training organisation responsible for the training has to check if all the appropriate elements of the training course of theoretical knowledge instruction have been completed to a satisfactory standard before recommending the applicant for the examination.
However that is achieved, it will involve more one to one instruction than we have previously seen. Instructors have shown little interest in the past because generally they are not paid for this work; something will have to change!
I don't believe you should have to pay for any mandatory ground school. I certainly didn't. How many other people do you know who work for nothing?

[Level Attitude]

How many other people do you know who work for nothing?

WELL SAID !
Especially as Instrutors already invariably give a lot of free advice,
guidance, help, even informal ground lessons (especially when the
weather is not flyable).

A school should, however, be upfront about the course(s) they offer
along with the transparent charging structure they use.

baz76
As the customer, you have already indicated, from some of your
earlier replies, that you don't even know what you are buying (what a
PPL course involves) - so how can you decide if the price is correct?
(You've probably asked more questions when buying a pair of shoes)

Before booking another lesson you should re-visit the school and ask
someone to explain exactly what is involved in your obtaining a PPL.
How it all fits together (theory, briefing, flying, etc) and exactly what,
and how much, they will charge for.

Also ask what other (non-school) costs you are likely to incur.
(Medical, away landing fees, exams, etc)

If possible, you should then visit one or two other schools and ask them
exactly the same questions.

You can then make a decision on whether to proceed with this "expensive"
course and with which school.

NB: Prices will likely rise during a course as fuel costs only seem to be
going up - but you should be informed of this before they are applied.

Check any bills you are given and query anything you are unsure of. If
something is included which hadn't been previously mentioned
(eg home landing fees) then, I suggest, you go to a different school.

Be very wary of paying money in advance in order to receive a discount.

[stevelup]

Under the new EU rules the requirement for theoretical training is becoming more formal

Not right now though...

How many other people do you know who work for nothing?

Sorry, that's not what I meant. I re-read it and see why you thought that though.

What I meant was that you shouldn't be coerced into paying for ground school that you may not need.

I managed fine with the pre and post flight briefings which were included as part of the training. Assistance was available to me in terms of classroom study for the exams (for a fee, obviously) but I didn't need it.

I wasn't for a minute suggesting someone should work for nothing!

[Whopity]

Not right now though... That rather depends, I know two RFs who have been told that to continue, they must become ATOs because the CAA will not process any changes to their Registration; therefore the minute they become ATOs they have to apply the new rules!

It is interesting that those who offer proper groundschool training can make a good income from it whereas those who teach flying struggle to survive!

[BEagle]

It is interesting that those who offer proper groundschool training can make a good income from it whereas those who teach flying struggle to survive!

The latter is rather less affected by the weather than the former....:rolleyes:

Chatting about aircraft over a coffee can presumably be counted as 'theoretical instruction' under the pointless new €urorules....:ugh:

Or will things descend into blatant commercialism, so that even a student asking an instructor how to use the NOTAM website can expect to be billed for 'professional services'....?

[BillieBob]

Chatting about aircraft over a coffee can presumably be counted as 'theoretical instruction' under the pointless new €urorules...So long as it is detailed in the Training Manual and approved by the competent authority - Yes.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I'd say your next lesson will be 2hours of ground school to cover the ground based exercises 1 and 2, charged at ground school rate, and another hour in the air with its breifing and de-breifing hour - which you will pay for as 1 hour of flight instruction. Total of 4 hours.
Some schools separate these, so that the second lesson (after the air experience flight) involves all the ground stuff, checking out the aircraft, taxying etc, but doesn't include any flying. This isn't free, but isn't charged at flying rates.

[Heston]

GtW - yes that's what I meant. In effect the 4hour slot that he has been asked to book is two lessons - one non-flying to cover Exs 1 & 2 and one flying to cover Ex4.

The advice to ask for an explanation of the detail of the structure of the course, prices and so on, is spot-on. You're a customer FFS!

[abgd]

Self-study worked for me.

Secondly, there's a limit to how much you can take in anyway, in one go. In my view, 3 hours is likely to be too long for a single session. It might be OK if it was broken by a flight in the middle.

Most flying instructors I've met are paid by the hour, and mine were paid the same for ground school hours and flying hours. When I said I wanted to go the self-study route, I suspect I disappointed one of the instructors. Profit margins in flying schools are quite tight, and in my school they would make about the same amount of money out of the ground school and flying components of the course. That said, they were quite accepting of me going the self-study route.

On the other hand, if I had the money to burn, I think I would have done well to spend it on the instructors. A good teacher enables most people to learn more in a shorter time than self-instruction.

[mad_jock]

I don't think it would be 3 hours class room.

If you go through all the emergency stuff and aircraft paper work thats an hour.

Cup of coffee

Course description and intro to the lessons and ground school plan 30min.

A right good walk round lesson and sit in the machine and show where all the switches are. Then get them to do a walk round. Another 45 min to an hour.

Effects of controls brief 1 and 2, 20mins.

1 hour flying

15 min debrief and paper work completion filling in log book etc.

About 4 hours right enough.

[baz76]

Thats what I am thinking, I think they are trying to rip me off. I noted the advanced bookings were driven by the instructor rather than the guy sitting in the office. I was under the impression that the actual flying and briefing / debriefing and self study is enough. I am not being arrogant but I am sure most of the stuff can be self studied.

When I asked my instructor, this is what he has responded.

your thoughts guys?

==================================================

Perhaps I should not have used the words ground school, although we tend to use this for any discussions on the ground. A better term would be pre-flight briefings for each of the Exercises required under the CAA syllabus.


At [Name of flying school] you pay separately for the instructor's time, whether it be for pre-flight briefings, or time in the air, and separately for the aeroplane, on a chock-to-chock basis (the time that goes in your log book).


The initial two hours is to cover the ground briefings for Exercises 1 to 5. The extra hour on the next lesson is to cover the practical aircraft checks (Pre Flight Inspections etc). After that we would expect to be able to cover both ground briefings (pre and post flight) and flying in each two hour slot, although there is likely to be be a different time charge for each - particularly for the early lessons.

[TractorBoy]

How much are you paying for the aircraft hire, and how much per hour for the instructors time (ground and air)?

[baz76]

its 180 for the hour.

for my first lesson they charged me 147 . this included 35 minutes flying and the rest was briefiing

its £ 40 for instructor but the £ 180 includes aircraft hire, instructor, fuel, home landing fee

[TractorBoy]

So £140 for aircraft (what type?) and £ 40 for instructor.

How much does the instructor cost for the ground briefing.

£180 p/h flying sounds rather a lot, but it does depend on the type.

Edit: £147 for 35 mins is pretty shocking!

I've found the school you're learning from. There are alternatives - Panshanger charge £147 p/h, Andrewsfield £140 in a C152 (an £1800 saving.....) etc...

[mad_jock]

Go find another school thats taking the piss.

[baz76]

Here is their price list

Dual flights (2 seater) *£170.00Dual flights (4 seater) *£180.00Aircraft hire, 2 seater / 4 seater£130.00 / £140.00Instructor only (training in your own aircraft)£50.00Ground lessons£40.0I am doing it on a 4 seater

[TractorBoy]

So the instructors are charging for the pre-lesson briefings at £40 p/h then? On top of £180 p/h for flying?

I'm with Mad_Jock.

I'm also rather surprised that you hadn't got this down in black and white so you knew exactly what you're getting for your money before you began training....

I also notice the website packages quote

45 hours JAR PPL dual instruction (£7650)

This is rather misleading as 10 hours have to be solo and should be charged minus the instructor £40 - unless of course they're being paid 40 quid to sit in the clubhouse drinking coffee while you're off soloing...

[abgd]

No, they're being paid £40 to sit in the clubhouse, drinking coffee and sweating profusely whilst you're out soloing. It's not something I ever begrudged them.

[baz76]

Thanks for the response.

They chanrged me 147 in total for 1 hour that included 35 min flying and 25 minutes of briefing

You made a very good point about 45 hours ppl 7650

[baz76]

45 hours JAR PPL dual instruction (£7650)
35 ground lessons (£1400)
7 written exams (£280)
PPL Student Groundpack (£170)
Purchased separately the above would cost £9500£855

[TractorBoy]

Have you bought the package? 50% up front!

[baz76]

na i did not

[Level Attitude]

So the instructors are charging................£40 p/h
It is the organisation that charges students for the instructors it provides.
No, they're being paid £40.........
It is the organisation that then pays instructors.
The payment will not be anywhere close to what the student was charged.
If PPL instructors were paid £40/hour they would be very happy indeed.

This is another way of flying schools generating income to cover their costs;
and they certainly need to! Going bust serves nobody's interests.
The alternative would be to raise the aircraft hire rates.

All(?) flying schools quote a dual hourly rate for flight training - but why
should that also mean free briefings, free instruction in preflight & post engine
start checks, etc.
Free to student also meaning unpaid to instructor.

The dual rate (and possibly solo hire rate) may have been set to include
the above, but charging Instructor time and Aircraft time separately does seem
more sensible.

The devil is, as always, in the detail. Making sure everything is clear at
the outset, agreed and applied fairly (though stopwatch instructing is not
a good idea).

baz76
Close to London £170 ph dual in a 2-seater is not necessarily unreasonable.
Is there a reason your first lesson was in the more expensive 4-seater?

I believe I recognise the school from the price list you have given.
If so you are in luck: There are at least three other PPL training
organisations on the same airfield for you to conveniently visit for your
comparative shopping.

[dobbin1]

You have to be careful when comparing hourly costs. You must understand the way the time is charged. Some charge for the block to block time, some for every minute the engine is running and others for time in the air plus a fixed allowance for taxy. The school I mainly work for uses the latter system, with a meter that switches on when the aircraft takes off and switches off when it lands. We add 0.2 (12 minutes) for taxy time. In my opinion this is the best way because it allows students to take as much time as they want for the taxy and power checks without being concerned about additional cost. This school does not charge for any briefing time.

Please be aware that there will soon be 9 exams, not 7. These exams will need to be passed in 6 sittings, with a sitting likely to be defined as three consecutive days.