Clarification please - joining the circuit

[Steve6443]

I hope maybe someone could clarify something for me. I did a check flight at an airfield and, after doing the usual practice EFATO, stall recovery, I was asked to return to the strip to do some circuits. I had taken off and received info concerning QFE, runway in use and that the circuit was left hand. Th runway take off direction was south westerly and I was now north west of the field. To return to the field, my intention was to head south, pass the airfield with it on my left (ie, with seperation from crosswind), then turn north east, report downwind etc and join the circuit.

Perhaps I should add: the plate for the airfield said specifically "parachute jumping possible" - and they were jumping yesterday - hence under no circumstances are overhead / deadside joins allowed, only base / downwind. So far so good.

However the FI checking me out said to me: why so difficult? Just turn SSW and join RIGHT DOWNWIND. I asked the question twice: The airfield information is: circuit is lefthand, parachuting in place, hence no deadside joins. I headed south and went around the circuit - maybe took 4 minutes longer but I felt more at ease doing it that way.

Now to my question: Surely the join I was expected to do was contrary to what was written in the plates? Or can you join a circuit to land on a right downwind, even if deadside joins are forbidden and the circuit is lefthand?

[Whopity]

Not quite law yet:
SERA.3225 Operation on and in the vicinity of an aerodrome
An aircraft operated on or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall:
(a) observe other aerodrome traffic for the purpose of avoiding collision;
(b) conform with or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation;
(c) except for balloons, make all turns to the left, when approaching for a landing and after taking off, unless otherwise indicated, or instructed by ATC;
(d) except for balloons, land and take off into the wind unless safety, the runway configuration, or air traffic considerations determine that a different direction is preferable.
All turns should be in the direction of the traffic pattern!

[Steve6443]

Thought as much, still don't understand why the FI would have required me to fly against this and join from the deadside and on a right hand circuit..... Any ideas??? Apart from the fact that it was a shorter route to the runway......

[BackPacker]

If you're new to the airfield it makes a lot of sense to fly wide around the circuit (possibly even outside the ATZ) and join in the prescribed manner. Which in this case seems to be a direct downwind join.

The instructor may well have a lot more local knowledge and know from experience which shortcuts are acceptable and which are not.

Furthermore, was this an A/G, AFIS or ATC airfield?

Personally I am always wary of non-standard things at an A/G field because radio usage seems to be relatively poor - not to mention the no radio aircraft around. But with ATC fields you can generally ask for anything as long as it doesn't cause a conflict or noise abatement issue. Where I trained (KISM, full ATC) they had both left and right hand circuits in operation simultaneously for one single runway as a matter of course. Which circuit you got was determined by which direction you came from and nothing else. Worked a treat. If you were to join final behind an aircraft on the opposite circuit and you didn't see it, you just had to say so and ATC would call your base turn, and so forth.

[Steve6443]

If you're new to the airfield it makes a lot of sense to fly wide around the circuit (possibly even outside the ATZ) and join in the prescribed manner. Which in this case seems to be a direct downwind join.

The instructor may well have a lot more local knowledge and know from experience which shortcuts are acceptable and which are not.

Furthermore, was this an A/G, AFIS or ATC airfield?

Personally I am always wary of non-standard things at an A/G field because radio usage seems to be relatively poor - not to mention the no radio aircraft around. But with ATC fields you can generally ask for anything as long as it doesn't cause a conflict or noise abatement issue. Where I trained (KISM, full ATC) they had both left and right hand circuits in operation simultaneously for one single runway as a matter of course. Which circuit you got was determined by which direction you came from and nothing else. Worked a treat. If you were to join final behind an aircraft on the opposite circuit and you didn't see it, you just had to say so and ATC would call your base turn, and so forth.

It was a typical G/A field with call sign "Radio". Having said this, I'm used to flying to similar airstrips here in Germany - Koblenz, Melle both spring to mind - which have both left and right circuits in use and am ok to being advised which to join, however I have never gone to an airfield before, be told "left hand circuit in use" and be expected to join right downwind, hence my question - I wondered whether this was a UK thing, that you can receive "airfield information" and then ignore it......

[avonflyer]

A right base join into a left hand circuit is, to my limited knowledge, legal and can be an easy and quick short cut home if there is nobody else (or very few) in the circuit.

BUT, I can testify that it can scare the S**T out of a student coming left downwind just about to turn base to hear the words G-**** joining right base. It happened to me whilst I was flying my solo circuits and I extended downwind whilst my instructor had a robust conversation with the arriving pilot on the ground.

[2 sheds]

A right base join into a left hand circuit is, to my limited knowledge, legal

UK Rules of the Air
Flight in the vicinity of an aerodrome
12 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a flying machine, glider or airship flying in the vicinity of what the commander of the aircraft knows, or ought reasonably to know, to be an aerodrome shall:
(a) conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b) make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if the air traffic control unit at that aerodrome otherwise authorises.

:rolleyes:

2 s

[avonflyer]

Ok thats a good source (albeit not very well worded for an aerodrome that has a right hand circuit) :).

So if the local ATC authorise a right base join to a left hand circuit its for sure ok.

The local "sky god" who practised this around my way pointed out that he did only turn left once he was in the circuit and therefore conformed with the rules of the air (but, of course, there were no left hand turns for him to make ..) and also that it was only an equivalent to a straight in which few(er) people tend to bitch about.

My guess is that there may be the classic disjoint that so often leads to soooo much debate here between the sentiment of the laws and the interpretation

Must admit, as I said earlier, its not my favourite join but, it is used

[2 sheds]

Ok thats a good source
Not just that - it's the law and entirely logical. NB all those whingers who complain about how boring and irrelevant Air Law is.

albeit not very well worded for an aerodrome that has a right hand circuit
Why? If a right hand circuit is in force, it directly implies that ground signals should indicate this - unless there is an ATC unit, of course.

So if the local ATC authorise a right base join to a left hand circuit its for sure ok.
Of course - that's what the law says. But note - ATC - not FIS or AGCS.

2 s

[Whopity]

A right base join into a left hand circuit is, to my limited knowledge, legal You said it! Its not legal so you have increased your limited knowledge.

[Steve6443]

Quote:
A right base join into a left hand circuit is, to my limited knowledge, legal
You said it! Its not legal so you have increased your limited knowledge.

I still don't understand why the plate says due to parachuting, no dead side / overhead joins yet the FI wanted me to join the circuit from the dead side.

To visualise let's assume our airfield has runway orientation of 24 / 06, when 24 is in use, a left hand circuit is required and a right hand circuit when 06 in use. Based on the plates, surely joining right downwind runway 24 is a dead side join and hence illegal?????

[avonflyer]

Whopity - agree have increased knowledge BUT we have also have found out it IS legal if ATC agree it.

[Whopity]

Quite often an airfield that has mixed traffic will declare "No deadside" to prevent aircraft from doing a "Standard Overhead Join". This is a locally produced safety instruction and could possibly result in a charge of endangerment if there was an incident involving a breach of this rule however; it is not illegal. The Rules of the Air are enforceable in law and you can be charged with breaching the rule if there is an incident. It is a rule you could break and get away with until something goes wrong and then it will just be another charge added to the list.

Unfortunately, many pilots seem to be unaware of some fundamental Rules of the Air which are there to provide a minimum level of safety and are enforceable in law.

If there is no parachuting then joining from the deadside might not be an issue but all turns within the vicinity of the aerodrome (ATZ) must be in the circuit direction unless cleared by ATC.

[Choxolate]

I still don't understand why the plate says due to parachuting, no dead side / overhead joins yet the FI wanted me to join the circuit from the dead side.
Probably best to ask the FI, he is the only one who will actually know why.

[funfly]

I know it's a long time since I've flown but haven't they got rid of the 'overhead join' yet?

[2 sheds]

I know it's a long time since I've flown but haven't they got rid of the 'overhead join' yet?
Why do you imply that it should be dispensed with?

2 s

[Whopity]

haven't they got rid of the 'overhead join' yet?How else would you find out whats going on on the ground? They haven't got rid of the Magnetic Compass either!

[Maoraigh1]

but haven't they got rid of the 'overhead join' yet?
Even worse, the FAA now have something similar.

[sevenstrokeroll]

first off this instructor isn't that bright...doing it their way would give them 4 minutes less pay...so be suspect!!!!

second off, if it is left hand pattern, entry on the 45 is prefered to downwind, then base then final

and really, you guys on that side of the pond talk real funny...deadside? circuit?

I published an unfamiliar airport entry pattern technique that always works and you clodd hoppers can't seem to grasp it.

here is some free advice...ask three other instructors at the airfield in question and see what they think.

the one that agrees with you is your new instructor.

[stevelup]

first off this instructor isn't that bright...doing it their way would give them 4 minutes less pay...so be suspect!!!!

Not all instructors are in it for the money...

second off, if it is left hand pattern, entry on the 45 is prefered to downwind, then base then final

Not over here it isn't...

and really, you guys on that side of the pond talk real funny...deadside? circuit?

I think you'll find it's you lot who talk funny...

I published an unfamiliar airport entry pattern technique that always works and you clodd hoppers can't seem to grasp it.

Congratulations - nice way to ingratiate yourself

here is some free advice...ask three other instructors at the airfield in question and see what they think.

the one that agrees with you is your new instructor.

Curious logic there...

[sevenstrokeroll]

stevelup...

I"ve been flying longer than you have been alive...your views are typically european and that is why your planes and aviation community suck.

so, go have some spotted dick and leave flying to real pilots.

[SloppyJoe]

And your views are typically American, very narrow minded and an unwillingness to accept that any way other than your own is any good.

Just because you have been flying for longer than he has been alive does not mean you are any good at it or that your opinions are more valid. In fact it shows from your previous post that you blurt out an answer that is wrong because you believe you know it all as your so experienced. When told what you wrote is wrong, instead of accepting the correction you attack the person who corrected you. Great personality trait for a pilot. I hope when an FO points out your doing something wrong you don't attack him, as how dare he correct someone with such experience as yours.

[stevelup]

He's been retired for years due to health reasons. Just a bitter old man - best thing we can do is humour him...

[funfly]

Sevenstrokeroll.

Bet these stupid english youngsters don't even know what a paradiddle is :rolleyes:

Both of us, from each side of the pond, have national traits that seem queer to others. That doesn't make us stupid just different.

We all post things on here without thinking sometimes (q.v. my post a few back) but it's a sign of a real man when you can listen to another's differing opinion and be tolerant, also to admit when what you have said might have been inaccurate.

So cool it man, with due respect to your age, lets live in harmony and respect each other's opinions even if they do not coincide with our own.

[sevenstrokeroll]

I have a better idea. Let's take a look at the ideas and ways of all the posters.

The original poster had a fair question. He was truly puzzled why someone would encourage something that even his level of piloting skills and knowledge indicated were WRONG>

There were some suspicious things that my vast experience picked up on and I mentioned it in a semi humorous way to make sure IT STUCK in the original poster's mind.

And I get attacked. Well I can take it. And the other posters are right...age and experience don't make you a better pilot than someone else. But when you are a better pilot than someone else and you also have age and experience on your side that is quite a benefit . I'm sure even German and British pilots have seen the poster with the biplane in the tree speaking of bold pilots and old pilots and that there aren't any old bold pilots.

Back in prehistoric times I had warned a fine student, someone who spent time and money getting to be a fine pilot...someone who had pulled himself up from poverty to become a wealthy man how to stay safe. I warned him that some pilots would enter an uncontrolled airport traffic pattern (yes pattern, not circuit) in such a way as to increase the possibility of mid air collision. I also warned him about stall recovery when avoiding a collision.

Two weeks later he encountered someone entering the pattern incorrectly at a high elevation airport. Head on collision course on base leg, he correctly on left base, the intruder incorrectly on right base. He maneuvered and avoided collision and while intensely maneuvering he approached a stall but recovered safely and landed.

I don't play around when I fly. and when I hear stupid things I call em like I see em...even if they are in other countries.

and lets talk about the peanut gallery...sloppy joe and stevelup...yeah they love to talk. Oh imagine a flight instructor not in it for the money (puhleaze)I know flight instructors are not well paid, but any flight instructor who takes a shortcut is not teaching a student how to be safe and that costs more money in the long run.

and yes I'm an American. Remember us? We invented the airplane.

I don't like you stevelup...and I sure don't respect you and the same for sloppyjoe. And I do know all about CRM and making sure a F/O can speak to me about anything of concern to make the flight safer.

So many times people make up stuff to cover their own inadequate performance as a pilot. They comment as if I am someone they have actually flown with. But of course we never will fly together. My airline only hires very experienced pilots, not the cadet boys of the european squadrons.

We hire people who can fly and think, not just push buttons.


And dear funfly, yes I know all about paradiddles, flams, ratamacues, lesson no. 25's (which the brits call the rat-a -tap). But I disagree with you about peaceful coexistence.

The likes of stevelup and sloppyjoe are just fooling themselves. They are trying to make up for failures by ''talking big''.

I admire the brits for inventing radar, and the lion's share of the jet engine . And especially for the few!

And the germans are damn smart, swept wings, and so much more.

But when it comes to flying, they might learn a bit more from us, should I say U.S.?

[Pilot DAR]

my vast experience picked up on and I mentioned it in a semi humorous way to make sure IT STUCK in the original poster's mind.

Note to readers:

"vast experience" may not mean experience in aviation, so buyer beware. My modest aviation experience causes me to know that really knowledgeable pilots who post here are very courteous, and have a positive mentoring communication style.

"semi humorous" may mean mostly not.

"IT STUCK" makes me think of a knife attack. Removed during medical procedure, never forgotten, but only remembered with distrust and disdain...

If I recall, I have about one year less flying experience than the other poster. I know that many younger, and less experienced pilots are much more fresh, and recently trained than I am. I delight in considering their opinions as my peers, as I have forgotten more than I should have over the years.... 20 years before earning my commercial license, I did training for the instructor, who trained me for my commercial. What goes around, comes around....

[stevelup]

Oh imagine a flight instructor not in it for the money (puhleaze)

You are absolutely just plain wrong there. I know many instructors who have no interest in money whatsoever.

I don't like you stevelup...and I sure don't respect

The feeling is 100% mutual so at least we agree on something!

The likes of stevelup and sloppyjoe are just fooling themselves. They are trying to make up for failures by ''talking big''.

There's only one person 'talking big' here and it's not myself or sloppyjoe!

[2 sheds]

I warned him that some pilots would enter an uncontrolled airport traffic pattern (yes pattern, not circuit)

Just for the record, ICAO...
Aerodrome traffic circuit. The specified path to be flown by aircraft operating in the vicinity of an aerodrome.

;)

2 s

[funfly]

I think that our friend from Fort Sheridan has probably been right in everything he has ever done in life and will continue to be so. :hmm:

[Steve6443]

The original poster had a fair question. He was truly puzzled why someone would encourage something that even his level of piloting skills and knowledge indicated were WRONG>

I'm not concerned about anything Sevenstrokeroll wrote concerning stevelup but what angers me is for him to comment about:

even his level of piloting skills

The term "what the F***" springs to mind here.

How do you know what "my level of piloting skills are"? For all you know, I could be a highly experienced german pilot - after all, I live in germany - who has NEVER flown outside of Germany but whose skills possibly approach those of you, our illustrious SevenStrokeRoll.

If you look at my original and follow up posts, at no time did I say "I'm a newbie, I have no idea", instead I indicated that I had carried out a CHECK FLIGHT to allow me to charter planes from an airfield outside my local field. The fact that it was my first experience flying in the UK made me ask a question about the joining technique, after all, each country can have slightly different variations from the same theme yet from this question you discern that my skills are limited is, to say the least, damn patronising.

Probably the most useful comment came from Choxolate - I will ask the instructor when I see him next - probably next weekend, I hope, if the weather is good. He was unfortunately in a rush to get away, which might have explained his eagerness to get back on the ground asap and going for right downwind rather than left but I still think joining on the right when the circuit is announced as left hand is breaking some rule or other and downright dangerous.

Thanks for the comments guys, I appreciate it.....

[stevelup]

even his level of piloting skills

The term "what the F***" springs to mind here.

Don't take it personally. Just remember that everyone in the world has a level of piloting skill which is inferior to his.

Probably the most useful comment came from Choxolate - I will ask the instructor when I see him next - probably next weekend, I hope, if the weather is good.

Honestly, only your instructor can answer the question.

My inferior piloting skills would suggest to me that as you joined downwind, you wouldn't have been 'in the circuit' until the point you joined, therefore any question of illegality is a bit spurious. As long as all your subsequent turns are in the correct direction, I can't see what the issue is.

Unless I'm completely missing something, there is nothing wrong with making a right turn to join downwind for a left hand circuit? I do it every single time I approach my home airfield from the south east and 22 (left hand) is in use.

[Pace]

Steve

We have this silly antiquated form of joining called the overhead! a load of bees high wing and low wing all heading to one spot overhead the airfield at supposedly 2000 feet.
I was once downwind at 1000 feet with a 1400 foot cloudbase and one idiot cut straight through the downwind at 1200 feet stating he was joining overhead:ugh:
From the overhead you then carry out several 90 degree blind turns mixing high and low wing aircraft just to get onto final.
It was a system developed when aircraft had no radios and were so poorly equipt that you needed to go to the overhead to make sure you were where you thought you were and could examine the signal box.

There are variations on the overhead as in your situation and on a busy active day it safer to follow the procedure.
No traffic do what the hell you want but do tell what you are doing

Pace

[2 sheds]

a load of bees high wing and low wing all heading to one spot overhead the airfield at supposedly 2000 feet.
At an uncontrolled aerodrome, there can always be a point at which a distinct potential confliction can occur, however you join. However, with an active circuit, better perhaps to remain above circuit height (i.e. an overhead join) and at least have the opportunity to observe the traffic established in the circuit before descending to join it. I say this in the absence of a 45 degree leg to the downwind being a promulgated procedure in the UK - but watch this space as a couple of collisions in the circuit in recent years have precipitated a review of procedures.
Not sure what a "there was I... and this idiot..." story proves, apart from the fact that there will always be idiots; plus there needs to be a review of circuit procedures, better understanding and better training.

2 s

[DeeCee]

Steve,

I can only presume that your Instructor felt that there would be no conflicting traffic (or jumpers) and wanted to get down quickly. I think that you did the right thing as caution is always best if you are not absolutely sure.

In small aerodrome left hand circuits I have seen people joining left base and straight in but never right base. Most of the time they would announce the fact and add 'giving way to circuit traffic'.

Personally I am sorry that this thread degenerated into a slanging match. Usually, amongst the flying community, there is great respect from both sides of the Atlantic.

[sevenstrokeroll]

so much fine entertainment...so much fine excuse making...very little real knowledge of flight from the peanut gallery across the pond.


pilot DAR...wow, courteous pilots.....I must learn how to drink my tea with my little finger out whilst balancing a small piece of cake on my knee.

and when I speak of experience on this forum, I do mean aviation experience.


what I've noticed is that people on this forum make excuses, and pat themselves on the back with a few hours of flying experience. i've spent my life in aviation and have even been invited on numerous news shows to explain and comment on tragedies in aviation.


what goes around comes around? fine...excuses and talk are cheap...experience isn't.

[Pilot DAR]

Haha! I drink my tea with my little finger stuck out, 'cause it's too big to fit into the tiny handle of those dinky tea cups. To be courteous, I smile, and say "thank you" to the person serving the tea!

A person with a few flying hours deserves a pat on the back, the same way our children do when they master a modest skill - it builds confidence!

Personally, I have only been invited to comment on aviation tragedies on the news three times, each time, 'cause I just got done helping to clean one up - but I've cleaned up many more than that, and seek to kindly share my knowledge to prevent more!

Just the same as any other industry which is based in both recreational and commercial activity, it is to a large degree sustained by the continued participation of newcomers. I wish to sustain and encourage general aviation, as it has become the professional side of my life. I need new people coming in, to be clients for the service I offer...

Most of the fine things that have happened in my life can be traced back to a favourable relationship with an aviation person - some younger and less experienced than I - and yes, a few of those from PPRuNers! So, I'm going to build relationships, not knock them down in a vain attempt to appear superior.

I will hardly discourage, or appear to demean or turn away, other pilots of any experience, who come here to participate in good faith. They could be my next client, but they are certainly someone's next client in aviation!

So like a very few who have gone before you into the annals of "oh yeah, I remember that guy!"(Guppy and David Houle come to mind) strokeroll will one day fade into the dark history of PPRuNe, to be nearly forgotten.... appropriately!

[Flyingmac]

My home base has a roughly East/West runway. All circuits are to the south of the field.

We don't mind aircraft arriving from the North positioning for a right base when it's a left hand circuit or a right base when it's a left hand circuit.
Just so long as they are sensible about it. It saves time and fuel.

It may seem to some that they are making a turn against the circuit traffic, but they aren't 'in the circuit' until they have established on final.

In many years of flying I've only ever had one really close call. I had just taken off and was at around 150 feet on the climb-out when a military fast jet went under me doing a high speed pass down the reciprocal.

He was talking to the right airfield but looking at the wrong one.
Duxford-Cambridge. He was an American.:=

and yes I'm an American. Remember us? We invented the airplane.

I'm a Brit. Remember us? We invented the aeroplane.:rolleyes:

Sir George Cayley, 6th Baronet (British inventor and scientist) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/100795/Sir-George-Cayley-6th-Baronet)

[funfly]

I'm English. We invented the Americans :ok:

[Pilot DAR]

I'm English. We invented the Americans

So you're responsible!

I'm Canadian, we just wandered off into the forest while the English were inventing the Americans!

[Pace]

I think this thread is a good example of rubbish and childish behaviour.

I had the honor of meeting and talking with a Great American pilot Neil Armstrong a decade ago.

One of the most courteous and humble people I had ever met and who talked to me as a pilot as if we were at the same level yet he was a Moons distance superior to me!

Good saying " There are those who have to shout to be heard because no one listens and those who only whisper and are heard because everyone listens".

Pace

[2 sheds]

My home base has a roughly East/West runway. All circuits are to the south of the field.

We don't mind aircraft arriving from the North positioning for a right base when it's a left hand circuit or a right base when it's a left hand circuit.
Just so long as they are sensible about it. It saves time and fuel.

It may seem to some that they are making a turn against the circuit traffic, but they aren't 'in the circuit' until they have established on final.

Flyingmac

Who are "we" "not to mind" aircraft failing to comply with the rules of the air? I suspect that you might "mind" when you find yourself head on to a joining aircraft when on opposite base legs. That is a very dubious argument about not being in the circuit until on final - rule 12 refers to an aircraft in the vicinity being required to make all turns to the left unless... . In the event of a collision, do you really think that any reasonable person would agree with your interpretation?

2 s

[Piper.Classique]

Richard HeadSays it all

[Pace]

2 sheds

These are uncontrolled airfields. It is mostly about how much traffic there is and pilot communication.

If I am flying into an airfield from the north onto a southerly runway and there is little or no traffic about will I add to my costs by needlessly flying into the overhead, do numerous 90 degree turns just to get back to a final position which I was almost on?

Will I communicate with the one other aircraft in the circuit and the FIS and state my intentions and position for a straight in?

If I am flying VFR and the cloudbase precludes an overhead join what will I do then??

Yes busy circuit fit in with the rest, special reasons for special patterns where those special reasons are active ( Skydropping etc) Then yes you dont want a parachutist through the wing.

But use your common sense and communicate communicate communicate!
There is not even anything wrong with a right or left based join or departure if your the only one in the sky or your in direct communication with the only other aircraft flying.

Pace

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Just for the record, ICAO...
Yeahbut, the "I" stands for "International", which in the minds of some American Daily-Wail-reader equivalents means "European" which in turn means "communist", and is therefore to be avoided like the plague[1], like A4 paper, and like anything other than foot-poundals per fortnight as a system of engineering units for designing spaceships.

In other words for these people anything with "international" in it is simply downright un-American and to be ignored. (Or pehaps shot, with the guns they keep at home for self defence.) Who TF are these "internationals" to be telling free Americans what to do??

[1] Yes I do know there is more plague in the USA than in Europe.

[Silvaire1]

I would most definitely like for US aviation to be influenced precisely zero by EU practice. So Gertrude, in that respect you are absolutely correct :)

You may have the gun thing wrong though - I support gun ownership as a last line of defense against the Federal Government, should it expand beyond the limits of the constitution and excessively influence local law. Just my POV and that of the guys that set that paradigm up. Not needed for personal defense where I go, although to each his own.

Think I'll run now an go buy some approved aircraft bolts, commercial off the shelf at the shop across the airport ;) I'm sure glad I don't need the metric equivalent.

PS I also hold EU citizenship and spend many weeks per year there, four trips last year. The food and history is great.

[2 sheds]

Pace

Some observations about your comments.

These are uncontrolled airfields.
Correct. We are discussing the application of the R of the A, either in a non-radio environment, or with AGCS or FIS.

It is mostly about how much traffic there is and pilot communication.
To some extent, yes, but also as above!

If I am flying into an airfield from the north onto a southerly runway and there is little or no traffic about will I add to my costs by needlessly flying into the overhead, do numerous 90 degree turns just to get back to a final position which I was almost on?
Probably not if you are aware of the position of other traffic - is there anything in the R of the A to preclude a straight-in approach?

Will I communicate with the one other aircraft in the circuit and the FIS and state my intentions and position for a straight in?
I am sure that you will.

If I am flying VFR and the cloudbase precludes an overhead join what will I do then??
Depending on the traffic situation, presumably either as above or otherwise complying with the R of the A to join the circuit, in this case inevitably at circuit height (including all turns to the left unless...etc).

There is not even anything wrong with a right or left based join or departure if your the only one in the sky or your in direct communication with the only other aircraft flying.
Sounds reasonable, but not actually what the R of the A require.

Cheers

2 s

[Flyingmac]

2 Sheds.

Here's an extract from our website. Should you care to visit I suggest you leave your Boy's Own Book of Rules of the Air at home.


Here are the up to date airfield details, if in doubt always call us!
Be aware that there is INTENSIVE activity during daylight hours 7 days a week in the surrounding area. Baxby, Linton, Dishforth, Sutton Bank, Felixkirk, Topcliffe can be active at any time. Non radio, non transponder gliders and microlights are a speciality. Transit traffic comes through the overhead or extended centre line, often!

Runway 24 has a pronounced 2.6% downslope.



This means (if you are landing downhill) that accurate speed control is vital to avoid that long float and desperate feel for the runway, or alternatively wheel barrowing at high speed down 24.
In light and no wind conditions locals almost invariably land uphill and take off downhill. (If you need advice please ring before departure)
Therefore be aware of mixed direction traffic!
Call 'Bagby Radio' on 123.25Mhz (Radio not always manned but make all calls as normal.) Do not overfly Bagby or Thirkleby villages. Non radio Aircraft please obtain telephone Briefing. Circuit height 800ft QFE. Join by most direct method but not overhead or deadside.
Circuit LH to 24, RH to 06

[2 sheds]

Flyingmac

Thank you for that welcome to your airfield. I am not sure what point you are making as I note that you state a specific circuit direction for each runway - so I infer that you all comply with the rules of the air. I thought that was the very essence of this discussion!

2 s

[BackPacker]

I am not sure what point you are making as I note that you state a specific circuit direction for each runway

Circuit direction for a specific runway implicitly also defines the live and dead side, and the way the overhead join (if any) needs to be performed. In the sentence thereafter, they specify that deadside and overhead joins are not appreciated. That sentence would be meaningless without knowing the circuit direction or at the very least the lay of the circuit.

They could also have said "all circuits to the south".

[foxmoth]

My inferior piloting skills would suggest to me that as you joined downwind, you wouldn't have been 'in the circuit' until the point you joined, therefore any question of illegality is a bit spurious. As long as all your subsequent turns are in the correct direction, I can't see what the issue is.

Unless I'm completely missing something, there is nothing wrong with making a right turn to join downwind for a left hand circuit? I do it every single time I approach my home airfield from the south east and 22 (left hand) is in use.

All this depends on how far out you are, do the right hand turns 5 miles out and you are OK, do them half a mile away and you are not, you might be in your right turn and someone else turning the correct way, you are then both blind to the other aircraft.

[Pace]

I am perplexed by this discussion! There is a standard joining procedure which you should stick to if traffic demands! No one wants to risk a collision with either an aircraft a glider or a parachutist.
But use common sense! No traffic or minimal traffic and good communication and then join in whichever way suits you best and depart in whatever way suits you best!
Obviously if there are departing or arrival restrictions requesting you do not overfly village A or do not encroach a live parachute zone then don't do it but it is stupid to follow a pattern with no other traffic about!
It will cost you money make your passengers more uncomfortable with needless turns and cost you in time.
Also consider is it always the best way to stick a fast twin behind a 75 kt Cessna 150 ? Common sense and communication rule

Pace

[Steve6443]

My inferior piloting skills would suggest to me that as you joined downwind, you wouldn't have been 'in the circuit' until the point you joined, therefore any question of illegality is a bit spurious. As long as all your subsequent turns are in the correct direction, I can't see what the issue is.

Unless I'm completely missing something, there is nothing wrong with making a right turn to join downwind for a left hand circuit? I do it every single time I approach my home airfield from the south east and 22 (left hand) is in use.
All this depends on how far out you are, do the right hand turns 5 miles out and you are OK, do them half a mile away and you are not, you might be in your right turn and someone else turning the correct way, you are then both blind to the other aircraft.

Guys, I think you are missing the point. I don't have an issue with turning right onto downwind but with a LEFT HAND CIRCUIT in use, WHY did the Instructor recommend joining RIGHT DOWNWIND (note the use of the word RIGHT) which means I am joining DEADSIDE. He wanted me to then join right base and, once more, right turn onto final. And this although their plate specifically says "No overhead or deadside joins".

The only time I will be "in the pattern" is when I turn onto final.....

I went to the airfield today and asked him about this - his response - "well, we all do it, saves money and flying is hardly cheap."

To say I was flabbergasted by this response is an understatement. In order to save 4 minutes worth of fuel / billing time, the FI there believes it is "ok" to ignore joining procedures. I asked him what the procedure was if we were on (eg) right base on a left hand circuit and non radio traffic was on base - it's a disaster waiting to happen......

PS: His answer for the potential conflict: as we're not in the circuit, we give way..... this assumes we see the conflicting traffic..... Errr, no thanks, I'd rather not be a statistic which says I ignored published joining procedures, would rather pay an additional tenner or whatever the cost is and join correctly.....

[stevelup]

Is the FI based at that airfield? If so, he's probably done hundreds, if not thousands of landings there.

Was there any other traffic?

I think Pace's comments in the previous post sum all this up perfectly.

[Steve6443]

Is the FI based at that airfield? If so, he's probably done hundreds, if not thousands of landings there.

Was there any other traffic?

I think Pace's comments in the previous post sum all this up perfectly.

1) Yes.

2) Yes

And of this "other traffic" at least one was non radio - when I went to head onto the runway, a microlight appeared on final without announcing itself. Also, parachute drops were taking place hence the reasons for not wanting dead side / overhead joins were more than fulfilled....

[Level Attitude]

In my opinion the point of a check out is to:
- Confirm legality - Pilot Paperwork in order
- Confirm competent/safe to fly
- Confirm navigation acceptable - Pilot won't get lost
- Point out any local "Gotchas" - ie Controlled/Restricted Airspace
- Point out any obvious local features/landmarks to help with orientation
- Confirm pilot understands, and knows how to comply with, any
local procedures.
How much actual flying the above involves depends on the experience
and currency of the piolt being checked, and also on what they would like
to do.

In this case it appears that the Instructor demonstrated (with no
explanations or caveats) that it is perfectly OK to ignore the
published local procedures if one wishes.

I think this is very poor Instruction/Airmanship/Checking Out

[AberdeenAngus]

Have you asked the instructor ?

[Pace]

LA

So what you are saying is that deserted sky or fast twin you will in all circumstances fly the published procedure regardless in a non controlled airfield ? Even in this deserted sky you will add to time cost and pax comfort in
Unneeded turns ! Amazing!!!

Pace

[Steve6443]

Have you asked the instructor ?

Read my post 52, it answers your question :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

pax comfort in [u]nneeded turns
One could avoid passenger discomfort by choosing to fly the extra turns in balance.

[Pace]

Not really! For a more experienced pilot who knows the home field he will make a judgement on other aircraft up etc !
In your point re the non radio I am sure your instructor would be fully aware of that aircraft and give him total priority?
This happens all the time! Of course on a busy traing day the instructor would make the decision to join the rest but even there would you consider the safe option to slot a 100 kt twin behind 3 75 kts 150 s ?
Even ATC try and avoid that buy giving unusual joining approvals to faster aircraft with experienced pilots!

Gertrude
Or not making unneeded turns which have their own hazards of blind spots and collision threats in the first place ? :O

Pace

[Level Attitude]

Pace
you will in all circumstances fly the published procedure regardless in a non controlled airfield ?
Given that the OP states the published information says
under no circumstances are overhead / deadside joins allowed
I do not think joining R Downwind, with a L Hand Circuit in Force, is
either safe or legal.

A pilot may vary a published approach - that is their decision and hence
added responsibility: So they should know where any other aircraft are
and what they are doing; and ensure that other aircraft are aware of
where they are and their intentions.
Therefore it must be certain that there are no non-radio aircraft operating
near the airfield.

To me the above means you can elect, for example, a Base or Final join,
rather than a published Overhead join.

It doe not mean it is legal to join R Base when a L Hand Circuit is in force
and, in my opinion this would be highly dangerous: Aircraft Head On are
the most difficult to see and on Base a pilot will be checking Final (in
case they need to give way to traffic on a Straight In) and the Runway
in order to judge their own turn on to Final.

Even in this deserted sky you will add to time cost and pax comfort in
Unneeded turns ! Amazing!!!

An airfield is likely to be the busiest part of even a "deserted sky"

The OP was not a Pax. He was paying to be Checked Out.
(Am assuming the Instructor was not doing it for love)
He also states this was his first flight at this airfield (and indeed in the UK)

The OP was not happy with the join suggested by his Instructor; so much
so, he says, that he refused to fly it.

So:
Deadside Join suggested that was absolutely contrary to published procedures
(and possibly dangerous given "parachuting was taking place")

R Hand Circuit flown when L Hand Circuit in force.

Above suggests poor airmanship to me.

In this case it appears that the Instructor demonstrated (with no
explanations or caveats) that it is perfectly OK to ignore the
published local procedures if one wishes.
Above suggests poor instruction to me - and not the Check Out that
was being paid for.

[Pace]

under no circumstances are overhead / deadside joins allowed

LA I did not read that specific part and am more talking in general yes in the situation of " under no circumstances" Then comply with that requirement.

I also note the distinction between a pilot being checked out/under training and the carrying of PAX where you are trying to make the flight as short and smooth as possible as well as trying to mix a fast twin in with slow Cessna 150s.

Flying into say Gloucester where there is a standard join in a twin it was very rare to fly the standard join.
Atc where possible preferred fast aircraft to join left or right base or ideally straight in with a request to call at 4 miles.
Obviously Gloucester have ATC

[caroberts]

Our CFI insists that if there is a LH circuit in operation, then no turns to the right should be made within the ATZ. (Similarly of there is a RH circuit no LH turns). Much like on a motorway, you're much less likely to hit something travelling in the same direction. A/G service FYI.

Given we can all miss traffic, I find it quite concerning to hear pilots considering shortcuts, especially if it is common practice.

[Pace]

Carobets

So you are at a deserted airport with no one on the radio other than the FIS guy.

On a southerly runway with left hand circuits you need to depart to the west but turn east ??? Why??? :ugh:

Common sense should rule not moronic compliance
Its not a controlled airport!!!

Just make your intentions clear and keep your eyes open! there is far more threat with a collision making unneeded blind 90 degree turns mixing high and low wing aircraft.

Pace

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Our CFI insists that if there is a LH circuit in operation, then no turns to the right should be made within the ATZ.
That would sound correct ... unless of course as permitted by ATC.
So you are at a deserted airport with no one on the radio other than the FIS guy.

On a southerly runway with left hand circuits you need to depart to the west but turn east ???
No, just wait until you're clear of the ATZ before turning west, not difficult. (Then we're back into the argument about the "leaving ATZ" radio call that apparently we're supposed to make but nobody does.)

[Pace]

That would sound correct ... unless of course as permitted by ATC.

But that is the key permitted by Air Traffic CONTROL
Not a guy in the office running a FIS on a handheld!
Where is a regulation which says you must comply with a circuit procedure OCAS ?

Pace

[2 sheds]

Pace

I thought that this had been flogged to death by now!

I do not quite understand your exclamation, emphasising Wombat's point...
But that is the key permitted by Air Traffic CONTROL
when you are arguing for variable circuit directions where there is no ATC.

Where is a regulation which says you must comply with a circuit procedure OCAS ?

Does this help? UK Rule 12 (which is a regulation) and which does not specify that it applies only to inbound aircraft. And after all, it's only common sense ... isn't it?

Flight in the vicinity of an aerodrome
12 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a flying machine, glider or airship flying in the vicinity of what the commander of the aircraft knows, or ought reasonably to know, to be an aerodrome shall:
(a) conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b) make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if the air traffic control unit at that aerodrome otherwise authorises.

2 s

[maxred]

Where is a regulation which says you must comply with a circuit procedure OCAS ?

There is'nt one. However, good airmanship is at the root of the discussion. One of the issues with FIS/AG/Airstrips, is that it can become so unruly, that dangers lurk in every turn.

No, just wait until you're clear of the ATZ before turning west, not difficult

That is a very sensible post, and what is wrong with this approach? Surely self discipline, is what is required in individuals flying, and with that controlled discipline, should come safer flying

[Steve6443]

Where is a regulation which says you must comply with a circuit procedure OCAS ?

Taken from the Rules of the Air Regulations 2007, schedule 1, section 4, regulation 12:

Flight in the vicinity of an aerodrome

12.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), a flying machine, glider or airship flying in the vicinity of what the commander of the aircraft knows, or ought reasonably to know, to be an aerodrome shall—

(a)conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b)make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if the air traffic control unit at that aerodrome otherwise authorises.


Also, the CAA VFR Guide (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/VFR_Guide_2011.pdf) indicates that this is valid particularly for aerodromes outside of controlled airspace:

Flight in the Vicinity of an Aerodrome

The purpose of these paragraphs is to give guidance to pilots and operators at aerodromes located outside Controlled Airspace and is concerned primarily with the application of Rule 12 and Rule 45 of the UK Rules of the Air Regulations.

Based on this, I think you'll find that there are regulations which require you to conform to the circuit. The question is, will you ever be picked up on it? The FI I flew with had never been questioned about his particular join and probably never will be - after all, where there's no prosecutioner, there's no judge and jury - however I can't help but be concerned when I hear people talking about flying against the traffic pattern, even in an empty circuit.

If I may refer to your previous post:

So you are at a deserted airport with no one on the radio other than the FIS guy.

How do you know you are alone in the air? Until such a day arrives when flying WITH two way radio is mandatory, you will continue to find people flying without a radio. To assume that the air is empty because only you and the FIS are on the radio is really tempting fate.....

[Flyingmac]

So what do we do here then. A or B. Toss a coin?

(a)conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b)make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.

[Steve6443]

So what do we do here then. A or B. Toss a coin?

(a)conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b)make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.

The word AND has, as far as I know, only one meaning. It does not mean "take your choice".....:ugh:

[Pace]

Conform to a pattern formed by other aircraft Intending to land ?
Wow that is totally ambiguous statement !So no traffic intending to land do your own thing! if your the lead aircraft intending to land everyone else has to follow your pattern whatever that is :ugh: sounds fun though:hmm: could just see some nice 8 pattern circuits just to keep everyone on their toes :E

Pace

[Flyingmac]

The inclusion of the word 'AND' suggests that you make all turns to the left regardless of circuit direction. My turn to :ugh:.

These rules date from non-radio days when airfields were just that, fields.
You took off and landed into wind. I see airships are still included.

[Steve6443]

The inclusion of the word 'AND' suggests that you make all turns to the left regardless of circuit direction.

I don't see the problem you are having, the regulation is pretty specific and extremely clear insofar that, as a rule, turns are to be made to the left except when (e.g.) ATC or the signal square indicates otherwise.

Note the second part of b) - this states "unless ground signals otherwise indicate." - that means that (eg) in the signal square on the ground you could expect to see the sign for a right hand circuit if a right hand circuit was in use. In such a case, turns would be to the right. Otherwise all turns are made to the left.

[2 sheds]

Steve

I think that we conclude that as the OP, you understand the Rules of the Air better than many who have responded!;)

2 s

[Pace]

2 sheds

There are things which happen and things which should happen This post came about because an instructor made a non standard join in an uncontrolled airfield meaning no ATC!

I purely stated that with more experienced pilots such non standard joins often happen perfectly safely for one reason or another. That is fact and not bad airmanship!

Where it states "under no circumstances" then I agree the instructor should abide by that. He was clearly wrong to ignore that requirement.
Where there are procedures for not overflying sensitive areas or into parachute zones I also agree with that!
Common sense comes into the equation and we are not back in the 1940s when some of these guidances were formed! I stress guidances as they are hardly regulations which would stand up to detailed Legal scrutiny!

Nowadays non radio aircraft are rare in the past common place! Obviously any aircraft flying a non standard join has to be good visual and give priority to other aircraft radio or non radio.

Far more important in my view with modern GPS systems in airfields with NO ATC is for good communication between aircraft and detailed position reports as well as keeping unneeded blind 90 degree turns between high and low wing aircraft kept to a minimum ( Hence my opposition to an equally archaic and outdated overhead join)

Pace

[Valias]

Steve

My 2 cents for what it's worth:


Always read and follow the instructions on the plate if you have one.
Always turn in the direction of the circuit
Always seek clarification if unsure.
Never go against traffic!
Never use the deadside if there isn't one


Also, there's an app that may be of interest to you, it's called ApproBASE and you can find it in the App Store. The app helps pilots in the visualise their vfr approach, join and landing at airfields.

It's a quick and easy way for the pilot to generate clear, generic diagrams of the runway and circuit layout for any airfield. Animations illustrate the join path and each leg of the circuit pattern through to landing, helping to provide the pilot with the information required to safely navigate and execute a join to any point in the circuit. Hope it helps.

[On Track]

Thank you Valias. At last a sensible comment on this thread.

[Flyingmac]

Thank you Valias. At last a sensible comment on this thread.


Even if it is a year late:)