Language proficiency

[modelman]

After passing my LPC for SEP,getting my medical, filling in SRG1104,getting certified copies of my ratings page and medical, I rang CAA to check how the counter service works I am now told that although my FRTOL expires 2016, I need to have a test and fill in SRG1199 to verify that as a born and bred Englishman of 55 years that I can speak English properly!:ugh:

[lenhamlad]

You are not looking at the wider picture Modelman. As a retired immigration officer I can assure you that there are hundreds of thousands of British passport holders, born in the UK, who speak either no English or very little. They fall into several groups. First, is those who were born in the UK of foreign parents, mainly from the Indian sub continent and West Africa, who went back with their parents or were sent back at a very young age and only returned to the UK when they were of an age to work. The doctor in my local surgery who I saw yesterday is one such person. Born in the UK she returned to Nigeria, went to school and graduated as a doctor there. She is now in the UK working. Her English pronunciation was appalling and if it was not for the fact that I spent a lot of time dealing with Nigerians both here in the UK and in West Africa, I would have had great difficulty understanding her. The second group who cannot speak proficient English are those who are brought up in closed communities eg religious Muslim and strictly orthodox Jewish sects.

Whilst I understand your concern at being questioned about your ability to speak English, we no longer live in a one culture society and I think you would agree that ensuring pilots speak a good level of English is something that cannot be taken for granted and checking their English language skills is a good thing.

[Ultranomad]

Actually, it's not just English that's being tested, it's a very specific dialect thereof:

- Mary, you are having an affair with an airline pilot, aren't you?
- I told you niner thousand times, negative!

[BackPacker]

You don't necessarily need another test.

When this whole LPE scheme came into being, the UK CAA recognized from very early on that most UK license holders would be native English speakers, and having them do a separate test would be somewhat ridiculous. So they came up with a grandfathering scheme.

If you do a flight exam (LPC or whatever) with a UK JAR-FCL examiner, who is him/herself an LPE six, and this examiner finds you are a native speaker, then this examiner can issue you with an LPE six as well.

But here's the catch. If you are not a six, then the examiner cannot help you and you need to go to a proper language examination institute to verify whether you're a five, four or (god forbid) even less.

As you just recently did your FRTOL and LPC, I'm surprised that none of your examiners used their privileges to give you an LPE six straight away. It might just be an omission on their part, since most of the UK pilots were grandfathered this way over a year ago.

The LPE six is recorded on the SRG\1199 form and I believe there's another form as well on which the LPE six can be recorded, IF the LPE six is the result of this grandfathering scheme. If you do a proper LPE test at a language institute they will issue you with a formal certificate which will list your LPE level, and that's what you need to send to the CAA. (At least that's the way it worked for me. As I live in NL, there were no convenient UK examiners nearby who could grandfather me into a six. So I had to do a formal LPE test at a language institute.)

[modelman]

Hi Backpacker
Not recently,but in 2006 ( it last 10 years). Will checking with my flight examiner ( nice Welshman with perfect command of English) if he can give me a six.
Thanks

[flybymike]

Born in the UK she returned to Nigeria, went to school and graduated as a doctor there. She is now in the UK working. Her English pronunciation was appalling and if it was not for the fact that I spent a lot of time dealing with Nigerians both here in the UK and in West Africa, I would have had great difficulty understanding her.
This is all about a test of one's ability to speak English and not a test of one's pronunciation or dialect.
I have great difficulty in understanding the Scots and the Geordies and most modern day television announcers, but I dare say they can all theoretically speak English.

[Whopity]

Until the 17th Sept the English Proficiency box was on the LPC form why didn't he sign it then?

[flybymike]

I rang CAA to check how the counter service works I am now told that although my FRTOL expires 2016, I need to have a test and fill in SRG1199 to verify that as a born and bred Englishman of 55 years that I can speak English properly!
It seems absurd that having just had a telephone conversation with someone (I assume to be) a native speaker, any further test is required, and indeed I have heard of pilots claiming to have been certified by precisely this means.

[Hollman]

I recently use the counter service to convert my UK CAA Lifetime PPL into an EASA PPL(A). My examiner had omitted to tick the English Language Proficiency box on the SRG1119 when I renewed my SEP rating a year ago. I didn't appreciate the significance of this at the time but when preparing my EASA conversion paperwork noted from one of the forums that CAA PPL holders would be grandfathered with Level 4 English.


All went well at the counter until they found no record of English language proficiency and said that it would not be possible to issue the EASA licence - the 'grandfather' rights expired in early 2012. After a short debate a staff examiner was found and we had a pleasant 10 min chat while we filled out the relevant form (I didn't note the SRG number sorry). £20 later, Level 6 English appeared on my record and the licence was issued.


If you have an examiner to hand then it's probably better to complete the paperwork in advance, but if not then it might be worth a call to SRG to see if it possible to arrange a test with one of theirs - I was not the only person he saw that day.

For interest, my long-lapsed IMC rating was recorded on under a note 'This page does not form part of the licence' as 'Ratings previously held by the holder' - IR(Restricted). I am told that on passing the IMC test it will be included as an IR(R) as part of a re-issued EASA licence.


Under 'Validity' the licence also contains the words 'Non-EASA aircraft - iaw and subject to the provisions of the UK ANO this licence is valid for aircraft registered in the UK for which the flight crew member is not required to hold a Part-FCL licence'. This appears to cover my Annex II aircraft, but I thought that was the reason I retained my CAA licence.


Regards,

(Whopity and others - thank you for your advice of a couple of years ago. I finally sorted it)

[lenhamlad]

I have great difficulty in understanding the Scots and the Geordies

A sweeping statement if ever I saw one. I am a Scot, but have lived over half of my life out of Scotland. I am sure you could understand me:D

It is about pronunciation. Communication is the watchword and if you do not understand the message being communicated to you, even if the person speaks grammatically correct English, then it it is down to among other things, the pronunciation. Are you really saying you do not understand an air traffic controller simply because he is Scottish? He could be using the exact same terminology as a Nigerian air traffic controller and both would be expected to use a similar level of diction and pronunciation to be understood.

It seems absurd that having just had a telephone conversation with someone (I assume to be) a native speaker, any further test is required

The person on the receiving end of your call cannot verify who you are. You could be a friend acting on someone's behalf. And before you poo poo the idea, a West African Brit was able to join the Immigration Service some years ago by having a third party attend the interview and the subsequent training course. It was only after he was found not to be up to the job that he had used an imposter to get him the job.

[modelman]

Until the 17th Sept the English Proficiency box was on the LPC form why didn't he sign it then? Didn't take my LPC until 29th Sept

Have re-read CAP804 and sect 4.1b states the FE can sign the SRG1199 if he and applicant are both Level 6.

[flybymike]

It is about pronunciation. Communication is the watchword and if you do not understand the message being communicated to you, even if the person speaks grammatically correct English, then it it is down to among other things, the pronunciation.
Ah well...I live and learn. Looking forward to hearing all those frightfully decent toffs speaking the Queen's English on the jolly old radio from now on, especially the ones from overseas. (Huw Edwards would never let them get a job at the BBC though boyo) and I still cant understand a word of ATC out of Newcastle so all that lot must have failed their exams. :)

[flybymike]

The person on the receiving end of your call cannot verify who you are.
My bank seem to be able to do it.

[Echo Romeo]

I am looking at my NPPL with SSEP rating, certificate of re validation ( done this year) FROTL ( valid til 2021), and nowhere is there any mention of language proficiency level anything!!

So where is it stated what level you are? :ugh:

[BackPacker]

I have no idea why, but for some reason the CAA only mentions that you have a sufficient level of English proficiency (which means 4 or higher) on your license. They don't mention the actual level or the expiration date (for levels 5 and below).

Also, there are persistent rumours that the CAA refuses to annotate your license with a Language Proficiency other than English. Which is kind of a problem since there are a lot of French-only airfields in France that require French proficiency similar to LPE.

Requiring foreign aircrew to prove that their English language skills are sufficient is a good idea in principle, especially for e.g. Russian, Indian and Chinese crews, but the way this was eventually implemented by the various authorities leaves a lot to be desired.

[italianjon]

Where is it marked on the licence...?

On my FRTOL there is no mention of any languages, but on the FCL (PPL(A)) it mentions in section XIII Remarks, Language proficiency: English.

Does that mean/infer level 6?

[BackPacker]

It means at least four. Furthermore, it might have expired since everybody with a valid FRTOL in March 2009 automatically received a four, which expired March 2012. (Somebody please correct me on those dates. I'm pretty sure they're not quite correct, although the gist of the story is.)

All thanks to the CAA not printing the actual level and the expiration date on the license.

[italianjon]

Oh joy... so where can I find out? lol. :ok:

Does this mean I can't use RT... currently being based in Germany they won;t let me use the radio in German here because I'm not a native speaker!!! and there is noo where I have found to get a level 4 endorsement...

Better pull out the morse code books.

[BackPacker]

Well, you can find out from the date you last did your LPE exam or were endorsed by a UK examiner as per the above.

If you never did an LPE exam, and were never otherwise endorsed with an LPE level, then the grandfathered LPE four that you got for free (early 2009 or so) has run out and you cannot legally use the radio anymore.

[italianjon]

Lol - you've got me looking through boxes now, I can't find the copies of the paperwork that I sent the CAA during the bi-annuals with an instructor :D

Was hoping that would help... anyway I've fired off an email to the CAA asking them to check what level they have registered on my file.

I'm guessing if it is not 6 then I need an examiner to sign me off, so any previous examiner that I have flown with should be able to do this, by proxy, right?

[BackPacker]

I'm guessing if it is not 6 then I need an examiner to sign me off, so any previous examiner that I have flown with should be able to do this, by proxy, right?

Any UK examiner that was a six himself, could sign you off as a six. That was essentially the gist of the grandfathering scheme. But I have no idea whether this scheme is still alive today (and Whopities post kind-of suggests to me it isn't - but the CAA would be able to clarify that for you).

If the examiner can't sign you off anymore (maybe because the scheme has expired) or if you're not a six, you're due for a formal exam at a language institute. Expect somewhere between 100 and 160 euros for such an exam, and a duration of about 20 minutes.

(I seem to recall that there was one further limitation, but I'm not quite sure about it anymore. The examiner could sign you off, but only during some sort of flight test. So if you visited the examiner just to get his signature for a revalidation by experience, that visit was deemed to be too short for the examiner to make a proper assessment. But as I said, I'm not sure about this. I do recall that the wording on the regulation was rather vague about it though. In any case, *instructors* have never been able to sign you off, only *examiners* could do that.)

[peterh337]

Not sure if I mentioned this before, but the first time I ever came across this for myself was when applying to the CAA for the initial JAA IR, Jan 2012, when it was discovered I did not have the Level 6 signed off. The IR examiner (CAA staff FE) did it then.

Maybe I had it from the various previous check flights etc but it doesn't look like anybody kept a record, and the CAA certainly didn't.

[Dg800]

My bank seem to be able to do it.

I'm pretty sure your bank got to identify you in person at least once and then gave you some secret keys or gizmos to later identify yourself on the phone (or the 'net). It would be pretty daft for the CAA to do the same and then send you home to do the actual test over the phone, wouldn't it? :ugh: