Exercise Joint Warrior = Large area Notam for today 4th October

[ABZ777]

I am planning a flight for 04/10/12 in a PA28. My attention is being drawn to several NOTAMs from SFC-FL550 regarding Exercise Joint Warrior. The area covers just about most of Scotland and NE England between the hours of 1100Z and 1400Z.

The most concerning part is:
NON PARTICIPATING AIRCREW ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO REMAIN CLEAR OF AREA.

The route is Dundee-Cumbernauld via Stirling departing around 1130Z. A large part of the area seems to be around the Central MDA danger area east of Scotland in the North Sea.

As I understand there are no temporary controlled airspace/danger areas set up - all this is taking part in uncontrolled airspace - but how wise would it be to go flying given the strong advice to avoid the area? I've never come across this before and I am undecided whether to fly or not. Any help or advice from anyone with experience would be greatly appreciated!

[Maoraigh1]

This is a huge area for VFR flying, although only for 3 hours.
Note: NON PARTICIPATING AIRCREW ARE STRONGLY
ADVISED TO REMAIN CLEAR OF AREA


Q) EGPX/QWELW/IV/BO/W/000/550/5702N00200W173
B) FROM: 12/10/04 11:00C) TO: 12/10/04 14:00
E) COMBINED QUALIFIED WEAPONS INSTRUCTOR COURSE 12. AREA EAST. UP TO60 FAST JET ACFT WILL CONDUCT AIR EXER WI AREA BOUNDED BY 5630N 00700W - 5906N 00118E - 5600N 00245E - 5500N 00120W - 5445N 00120W - 5445N 00500W - 5630N 00700W (NORTH SEA FROM D513 THRU CMDA, NORTHERN ENGLAND AND SOUTHERN SCOTLAND). SUPPORT PROVIDED BY AIRBORNE EARLY WARNING, SURVEILLANCE, AIR TO AIR REFUELLING AND ELECTRONIC WARFARE ACFT. EXER ACFT WILL AVOID CONTROLLED AIRSPACE UNLESS CLEARED BY OR UNDER CONTROL OF APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY. ACFT MAY NOT COMPLY WITH RULES OF THE AIR DURING THE CONDUCT OF HIGH ENERGY MANOEUVRES OUTWITH UK DANGER AREAS. NON PARTICIPATING AIRCREW ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO REMAIN CLEAR OF AREA. CONTACT 01489 612495. AIRSPACE COORDINATION NOTICE 2012-10-0022 REFERS.LOWER: SFC
UPPER: FL550

[eharding]

EGPX-H5187/12 (http://goo.gl/maps/6j9BS)

"UP TO 60 FAST JET ACFT"

Well, that's the entire serviceable pointy-end of the RAF occupied to the north of Durham - meaning Terry Taliban in his PA-28 Jihad Special can assert air superiority over London and the Home Counties?

Has no-one thought of the consequences? :E

[mad_jock]

It happens quite often to be honest.

The highlands and islands flights continue as normal.

Although you do get dumped with "multiple fast movers in your area good luck"

Go on your flight and keep a good look out. Speak to scottish info and you more than likely won't see or hear a thing.

[Pace]

Do we still have an airforce to conduct such an exercise ? Maybe a couple of Kingairs they used for the Queens flypast ??
They can stick a couple of missiles on the wings of my Citation if they are pushed ? :E
Is Captain Mannering organising it all ?

Pace

[mad_jock]

Its a multi nation thing pace.

They waz around the west coast playing with boats, then go bombing in Tain/Cape Wrath and sometimes dog fight up in the typhoon ranges to the north or east. Usually though they choose to dog fight in the middle of W3D and W6D just when all the commercial flights are trying to use them. It happend so often I suspect they briefed for it.

If the wind is over 15-20 knts they stop playing something to do with the bang seats.

Oh and don't expect your GPS to work as the FRA boys will be out as well.

The reason why they don't like civi's about is they have to knock off if the airborne radar spots a contact near them and they don't get visual. If your on mode charlie they will definately know where you are.

[sharpend]

Well, I used to be an instructor on the Jaguar OCU at Lossiemeouth. Scotland was our playground. In those days we had an Air Force, a large one. Now we have precious few fast jets and even less serviceable. Moreover, Scotland is a very big place.

My advice is to fly.... but keep your eyes open. You should do that anyway.

As an aside, nowerdays I just fly Cirrus/Bulldog and I much prefer the Cirrus for crosscountry as it has TCAS. Brilliant bit of kit.

[BackPacker]

I much prefer the Cirrus for crosscountry as it has TCAS. Brilliant bit of kit.

Just out of curiosity. Do all these fast fighter jets have a civvy-compatible transponder, and will they show up on a civvy TCAS or PCAS set?

Furthermore, has anyone ever attempted to try and get a Basic or Traffic Service (or something similar) from one of those AWACS that are overseeing the exercise? That sounds more sensible than getting a Basic service from Scottish, if your main worry is those fast jets. And possibly good practice for those controllers as well.

[mad_jock]

Do all these fast fighter jets have a civvy-compatible transponder, and will they show up on a civvy TCAS

Yep you can get a traffic traffic when they fly under you when your at 1000 agl.

I doud't very much if they would speak to you and if they did the person you would be speaking to wouldn't be able to give you any service as more than likely they won't be a controller or from the UK and won't have a clue what a basic service is.

[riverrock83]

I presume that they do have transponders, since transponders came from the original friend or foe systems, but due to their erratic / fast and often low level movement and operational reasons they are probably turned off most of the time anyway so are pointless or dangerous. Others on here will know the answer but I certainly wouldn't rely on a TCAS alert! You will be essentially stationary to a fast jet - they need to avoid you...
See http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/368168-tcas-fast-jets.html

Imagine the scenario of a fast jet intercepting an airliner, then the airliner getting a TCAS alert saying "climb"...

[BackPacker]

won't have a clue what a basic service is.

In that case, an ICAO compliant FIS or TIS, or a US-style flight following service would do just fine too.

[mad_jock]

Problem is if they climb at more than 8000ft/min the TCAS can't cope with it.

They normally do work by the number of RA's on the east coast NEW-ABZ route.

Normally the boys aloft are more interested in getting aircraft together not apart backpacker.

[Unusual Attitude]

Seems there is quite a bit going on very late at night / in the wee small hours also at the moment as the last couple of nights I've heard what sounds like a Herc or something go low over my house near Cupar Angus area. I caught sight of the strobes as it flew over the top of the house towards the Sidlaws from N to S and then turned and tracked along the hills heading SW.

Made quite a racket but certainly wouldnt make a complaint, a little bit jealous however as it looks like they were having fun.... :ok:

As others have said just keep your eyes and ears open, flying in Sotland you get used to pop up fast moving traffic. Personally if something is heading my way at high speed and I'm just having a bimble I turn on all the lights and throw a couple of orbits to make myself more visable.....not much else you can do really!

[dont overfil]

That'll be this one.


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8037/8047857378_817de3d3d1.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/66461/8047857378/)


Been in to Perth a couple of times this week. Callsign Albert 01

D.O.

[Unusual Attitude]

I guess that will be it then!

Is that the latest countermeasures system they've just deployed in that photo?!?!? Chaff-inch ?!?!?

Sorry, I'll get my coat.....:}

[dont overfil]

Flies on the window. My socks were drying!!

D.O.

[DX Wombat]

:yuk: How refined - NOT! :* I'm just peeved I'm not up there to see it all happening. :(

[mad_jock]

Pure class in Perth, your lucky he only got his socks wet on the way into work. Otherwise the aroma/steam off twice reversed boxers would have made the pic look as if it was down to 600m RVR.

[Pace]

MadJock

As a well seasoned Hotel stayer one tip for pilots who want sweet smelling socks every day :ok:
Wash them in the Hotel shampoo and stick the things on the end of a hairdryer!
They inflate like a windsock and dry within two minutes from wet through to bone dry! Hey presto sweet smelling socks for the man on the move :E
Have not worked out a quick dry for Knickers yet :{
Hot mosquito ridden countries eat an advocado the buggers will not come near you :ok: Mind you neither will anything else it permeates through the skin.

Pace

[mad_jock]

Have not worked out a quick dry for Knickers yet

That will be the trouser press broken into action.

[Fostex]

I once tried to dry a pair of pants in a hotel, draping them over a desk lamp shade.

They fell onto the bulb and started to smoulder/singe with some rather pungent smoke.

True story. Explaining the fire alarm to the hotel staff was... awkward. :ok:

[mad_jock]

The exciting glamourous life as a pro pilot. How to get your kegs dry on day 6 when you only left the house thinking you were back that night.

Thank the lord for primark and 24H tesco extra.

[Bob Viking]

I just wanted to shed a little light on some of the queries thrown up on here.
All military FJs have Mode 3 transponders so they will show up on TCAS. The Hawk T2 actually has TCAS as well and will receive the same warnings you guys do with TAs and RAs.

Military guys will not routinely turn off their IFF at any stage during UK training. A Typhoon intercepting an airliner almost certainly would!

AWACs won't really be able to give you a BS or TS since they are there to provide tactical control not a RADAR service. If the jets were to want a service to get back to base IMC, for instance, they would contact Scot Mil and the base in question. If they (AWACs) are operating in UK airspace then they will be familiar with UK rules regardless of country of origin.

The ejector seat limit mentioned earlier is not entirely accurate. A mean wind speed of 35 knots (or gusting 40) would stop the guys flying over the area for training. Operations are something else entirely.

As for flying through the area well that's your call really. Just be aware that there will be guys flying around at various heights and speeds working pretty hard. They will not all be from UK Armed Forces. If you could plan your flight to be outside their normal operating times then that's what I would do. Maybe contact the originator of the NOTAM for more information.

As for "dog-fighting" in the middle of advisory airways, there's nothing to stop them (VMC)! I can assure you that they are briefed and usually avoided but in the same way that the OP of this thread is perfectly at liberty to fly through the NOTAM, the FJs are perfectly at liberty to "dog-fight" in W3D.

BV:ok:

[Maoraigh1]

If an accident happened to an EU citizen, exercising their lawfull rights, would the wording of this NOTAM be evidence that a safe work plan had not been made for this exercise, as far as civilians were concerned?

[ABZ777]

Well this thread has sparked an interesting topic to say the least! Went on my flight aware of the NOTAM - kept a good look out but as suggested - saw nothing in the air! Only military sightings were whilst we were on the ground... First we saw a couple of tucanos on final for runway 27 at Dundee, and then a Hercules (maybe the same one as mentioned?) flying East heading out to the north sea, spotted flying north just past the high ground before Dundee as we drove home! :ok:

[mad_jock]

It was as I suspected.

[BluntyBum]

Coming to this thread a little late but couple of points; CQWI and JOINT WARRIOR are not one and the same. There are 2 different military exercises organised by 2 different organisations hence you will see some NOTAMS referring to JOINT WARRIOR and some to CQWI and times are (generally) different as some aircraft are taking part in both. For more info regarding JOINT WARRIOR airspace useage see the Civ AIP Supplement that is out (and referred to in the JOINT WARRIOR NOTAMs).

[dont overfil]

We are really quite glad to see all you military guys and gals here. It brightens up the day. The only downside is the inevitable batch of UFO sightings.

By the way did I tell you about my ailien abduction experience?

D.O.

[BabyBear]

By the way did I tell you about my ailien abduction experience?

And here was I thinking you had been a leftover from their last visit!:p

BB

[WorkingHard]

Maoraigh1 that is a very good question but I suspect there will be few considered responses

[dont overfil]

After the "avoid the whole of Scotland" notam I see we now have one for GPS jamming for 365 nm radius from Kirkwall!

Lets hope the "jammin' is of the musical variety.:)

D.O.

[scottish_ppl]

These NOTAMS are totally unrealistic in the areas they cover and the impact they would have if followed.

It is interesting to compare the way Scotland is regarded by the military as their playground, eg the HRA making a huge chunk of Scotland a no-go area every afternoon, and these notams, to the Olympic situation, where the authorities were forced to provided a system to give access to the affected areas.

Somehow I suspect they wouldnt get away with a Lowlands Restricted Area down in Englandshire to match the HRA....

[mad_jock]

Maybe the reason in the main why most of the locals ignore anything to do with exercises. Then after ignoring it a couple of times and seeing absolutely nothing military during the period they don't bother again.

[BluntyBum]

Worth remembering that the majority of these NOTAMs are Advisorary and not Avoids and the military (and any other significant airspace user for that matter) is duty bound to advise on significant air activity. Better to be aware of possible activity than get a fast jet up your backside surely?

[mad_jock]

Its pure arse covering. NOTAM the whole of scotland that there is an exercise on. And state that you shouldn't operate in that airspace.

What are all the flying schools meant to do shut down for the day with no compensation?.

In scotland we are all aware of fast jet activity just like wales and the other areas of intense activity.

As Maoraigh1 states though I supect if the worst happens the RAF is down one of its very few aircraft thats servisable hopefully the crew will bang out. The light aircraft won't be around to face the news and there will be another chinook type investigation with the RAF saying it did the right thing and a load of civi lawyers going through them like a dose of salts.

And it being scotland, the legal system will stick the middle finger up at any pressure from London to sweep it under the carpet.

[BluntyBum]

Don't disagree it's arse covering but I guess if I was in that position I'd want my arse covered! Ref the Flying Schools, I don't think the intention of these NOTAMs is to stop people flying (hence Advisorary not Mandatory Avoids) but to inform and arse cover! And some of the NOTAMs (Fast Jet Areas) have to be requested/published as above FL245 certain Upper Routes are rerouted as per the JOINT WARRIOR AIP Supp. Doesn't help that there are a number of military exercises all happening at the same time but I guess that is military planning for you!

[mad_jock]

By arse covering and not being defined areas its a boy called wolf.

Most folk just ignore them.

NON PARTICIPATING AIRCREW ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO REMAIN CLEAR OF AREA

Sounds to me like they want to shut down all traffic.

But they couldn't actually do a manditory because they would be hit in hours by a compensation bill.

And under scottish law I don't think they have even covered one cheek in the arse covering deptment.

[Fostex]

Flew into Islay this afternoon, nothing more exciting seen than a Frigate just South of Kintyre.

[BluntyBum]

And back to the start of this thread, the NOTAM in question is is for CQWI not JOINT WARRIOR, the latter of which Mad Jock describes. Different areas and different activity.:ok:

[BluntyBum]

RAF don't work weekends. Anyway must go as I have some NOTAMs to draft :p

[mad_jock]

Put tons of effort into them. Cause everyone reads them and does what they say. :p

[scottish_ppl]

Worth remembering that the majority of these NOTAMs are Advisorary and not Avoids and the military (and any other significant airspace user for that matter) is duty bound to advise on significant air activity. Better to be aware of possible activity than get a fast jet up your backside surely?


Out of curiosity does the fast jet traffic get any collision avoidance info from my transponder squawk?

The notams are informative in that you know there are excercises going on, but not usually practical to avoid the area because they are so big. It would be good to know the military have something equivalent to the civilian TCAS...

Although the one I wonder about more than the occasional exercise notam, is the HRA. Does the usage really justify the size and daily active, or could it be smaller sections activated by notam, or have VFR corridors through it available to light aircraft.

[Maoraigh1]

RAF don't work weekends.
A Falcon passed under us today, Sunday. We were informed of each other in plenty of time, and he descended from 1500' to very low over the Cromarty Firth. We were at 2000'.

[mad_jock]

FRA falcons arn't RAF.

[fabs]

RAF don't work weekends. Anyway must go as I have some NOTAMs to draft

Hope my wife doesn't read this, she'll wonder where I've been all weekend!

[snapper1]

Flying gliders out of Aboyne all last week. Saw a few Tornados now and then. We requested the 'wave box' be opened when the wave got going (FL195 - FL240) and had no problems.

[Maoraigh1]

FRA falcons arn't RAF.
I know that they're civi operated electronic simulators, and not flying for fun. Exercise activity was taking place.

[mad_jock]

Yes but they also play with the Navy as well.

[Bob Viking]

The only current RAF FJ that will see your squawk on TCAS is the Hawk T2. The Typhoon will have a Radar to assist (the GR4 may be able to display A-A contacts but you'd best ask someone who flies it).
I see what people are saying about the large area NOTAMs but then there are civilian equivalents that are equally vague. Cross country gliding competitions spring to mind. They cover vast swathes of the countryside but in reality hardly constitute swarms of gliders from surface to infinity at all hours of the day.
What this thread has highlighted to me is how certain members of the civilian fraternity (and this works both ways before anyone jumps down my throat) don't fully understand what the military is up to and why we do what we do. Open days hosted by military units or local airfields are a great way to enlighten members of the aviation fraternity. Although at one I attended I was not overly impressed with the finger pointing attitude of some PPL types who were convinced we were all out to kill them!
BV:ugh:

[Maoraigh1]

but then there are civilian equivalents that are equally vague. Cross country gliding competitions spring to mind. They cover vast swathes of the countryside but in reality hardly constitute swarms of gliders from surface to infinity at all hours of the day.
The threatening "Strongly advised to avoid" has NEVER appeared in a civillian notam. Scheduled air sevices, oil industry traffic, flying schools, survey aircraft, and lift helicopters would have great loss of revenue if they did this, and would cause considerable disruption to the economy.
(As a pensioner, flying for pleasure, with time on my hands, I didn't fly in the good weather earlier this week, due to the assorted activities. For me it was no big deal to go walking instead. )