Ab initio training on SEP - 10 yr restriction re engine overhaul

[FlyingGoat]

Could anyone direct us to the regulations restricting ab initio pilots soloing on a SEP which is over 10 years from engine factory overhaul?

The engine in question is almost zero-time (routine maintenance), but we understand there is a slightly obscure 10yr rule restricting ab initio pilots.

[Dan the weegie]

It's not specifically about ab initio training but relates more to the rent or reward from the aircraft. You may not use an engine that is 10 years old + 20% for commercial purposes :) can't remember where that is specifically :).

If you own the plane and aren't actually gaining anything from the use of the plane then it's entirely possible that the CAA will allow you to train on an aircraft with an engine older than 10 years. Give them a call and ask.

[FlyingGoat]

Many thanks for that. I can't find the relevant documentation, and I haven't yet found anyone at the CAA (licensing? training? airworthiness?) who understands the question, which is perhaps my fault. We're a non-profit flying club and the a/c is purely for our members' use.

[chanter]

CAP 747, GR 24

[FlyingGoat]

Thanks, Chanter - I've researched GR24, but can't see the specific reference to our situation or minimum pilots' qualifications - any further clues on which is the paragraph(s)? Is it in the appendices? I've tried various keywords.

[Genghis the Engineer]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_899.pdf

Does not contain the answers, but may help point you in the right direction.

G

[Dan the weegie]

FlyingGoat, I think you'll not be able to do it in that case.
You're still renting the machine to someone for profit or no and that incurs a level of liability that isn't there if you own the machine and are learning on it.
It's really not that obscure a rule.

If Licensing can't help you then Airworthiness ought to know. But licensing should be the ones imo as they also deal with the Registered Training Facilities - don't expect a quick answer though.

The bit that you're looking at is 3.1.2. It's aerial work.

[FlyingGoat]

Thanks, Dan. I was hoping to get an answer from the CAA Tech. Standards Surveyor (?), but I guess they've more important queries - I was hoping for a straight yes or no in black and white.

[Dan the weegie]

So first CAP747 GR 24 3.1.2
Engines that have complied with paragraphs 3.1 and 3.1.1, and have completed 120%
of the recommended operating time or calendar time, whichever occurs first, may
continue in service indefinitely, subject to compliance with a), b), c) and d).
a) The engine being installed in an aircraft which is not used for the purposes of
Public Transport or Aerial Work.
b) Compliance being shown with the appropriate limitations specified in Appendix
No.1 paragraph 5, to this Generic Requirement.
c) The engine being inspected in accordance with paragraph 4 in order to assess its
condition before exceeding 120% of the recommended operating time or calendar
time, whichever occurs first, and subsequently being inspected and re-assessed
at 100 hour or yearly intervals, whichever occurs first.
d) The data obtained during the inspections of paragraph 4 being entered in the
engine log book. A log book entry should also be made to restrict engine usage
during this extension period to flying for the purposes of Private Flight only




Then from the ANO Article 259

Meaning of aerial work

259.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2) and Part 34, aerial work means any purpose, other than commercial air transport or public transport, for which an aircraft is flown if valuable consideration is given or promised for the flight or the purpose of the flight.

(2) If the only such valuable consideration consists of remuneration for the services of the pilot the flight is deemed to be a private flight for the purposes of Part 3 and Part 4.

(3) Aerial work consists of instruction or testing in a club environment if it consists of the giving of instruction in flying or the conducting of flying tests for the purposes of this Order in an aircraft owned by, operated by or operated under arrangements entered into by a flying club of which the person giving the instruction or conducting the test and the person receiving the instruction or undergoing the test are both members

The definite answer is no,
Unless you have an engine that doesn't have an age defined by the manufacturer. Which if it's a club aircraft will be a lycoming or a continental and they are mostly 10 years + 20% so max 12 years old.

The ONLY thing you can do, is to have people buy a share in the aircraft and have them pay an instructor separately to teach them on the aircraft as I believe that is almost certainly private use - but I'm not convinced :D

[FlyingGoat]

That's brilliant, Dan - very much appreciated.

[JUST-local]

Continental and Lycoming engines have a recommended tbo of 12 years + 20% here in the UK under Gr24 so it's 14.4 years.

What engine is it and where are you getting 10 years from?

[FlyingGoat]

The engine's a Continental O-200-A and we're a 'registered facility'. More info being researched....

[JUST-local]

We also operate the same also through a registered facility and they have a TBO of 12 years or 1800 hours + 20% under the conditions or GR24 as mentioned above.

So you you do have up to 2160 hours and 14.4 years.