Requesting the Status of a Danger Area

[rich_g85]

A small question that arose after my flight yesterday, which took us via Weymouth to Sandbanks, through D026. I've always just asked Bournemouth Radar, who I'm in contact with already and are always very obliging and usually seem to have that information close at hand. Yesterday however the controller didn't know, and suggested I call London Information (who, after a 'standby' came back fairly quickly). What I'm wondering is, is asking for this information on the RT the accepted and proper way of doing things? Or is there somewhere that I should have checked before departing, a phone number perhaps, and that asking on the RT is 'ok', but a bit cheeky? Thanks in advance.

[mad_jock]

You can ring there will be a number somewhere in the AIP.

Its not usually a problem asking the agency you are already talking to unless they are busy.

But personally I would have asked plymouth mil on 124.150 on box 2.

Even if it is hot they know whats going on and if they can they will clear you through anyway.

All my dealings with Plymouth Mil I have been extremely impressed on not only there attitude in allowing access to the danger areas but also there motivation in putting extra work in to help you out. Its definately we won't let you through if we really can't but if there is a way, you can do it.

I am sure some have had other not so good experences with them.

But I have always found them a nice bunch and a credit to thier service.

[dublinpilot]

Asking on the RT is perfectly fine. The whole point of a basic service is so that you an get information needed for your flight, such as this (and not for getting traffic info!).

What it shouldn't be used for is as a replacement for checking notams. You should of course (and I assume you did) check the notams prior to take off to see if any activity was notified, but of course that doesn't mean that unnotified activity has started nor does it mean that the notified activity has been called off. So you are perfectly correct in asking about its status over the RT.

[rich_g85]

Thanks to you both for your replies. I hadn't thought of using Plymouth Mil - will bear them in mind next time. dublinpilot - Yes, I certainly did check the NOTAMs! I worked hard to get my licence and I don't want to throw it away by bumbling through an active danger area/airshow/Red Arrows! :-)

[2high2fastagain]

Another vote for Plymouth Mil here as well. I had the same experience as Mad_Jock. Was with Bournemouth routing west towards Swanage. Asked them about D026 and 12/13 etc. as I was heading down the coast for Cornwall. They suggested I call Plymouth Mil, who were extremely helpful and cleared me for the transits I needed. The zones were active, but as not much was going on they were very accommodating and shepherded us though. Fine chaps and chapesses.

As for RT permission for Danger areas, I try to call on the radio in good time and have an alternative routing in my back pocket if there's no-one on frequency or the range is hot. I only tend to use the phone for PPR to an airfield I know I'm going to. I think that's more polite than radioing in, but I'm sure others will have different views.

[mad_jock]

Plymouth mil is more than likely who the civi controller phoned.

Its always worth having a list of the mil frequencys.

If I didn't get a reply on plymouth mil the next one I would try would be london mil. Then london info.

Sometimes the civi controller won't have the time to find out for you or all they will say is its hot.

Its actually hellva lot of work for the controller to find out etc And I know they provide a service etc. Personally I don't think it is unreasonable to expect the pilot to have a bit of forethought and just speak to the mil direct as they have the yes/no call anyway.

Another frequency I would have in your back pocket is western radar another bunch of fine people. If you were a bit further west.

[soaringhigh650]

No need to use telephone. Things can change over time due to operational reasons.


Its actually hellva lot of work for the controller to find out etc


No computer display to quickly find that info? So backwards!

[FlyingKiwi_73]

In NZ we can call Information or the FISB frequency, but they do suggest you ring ahead before flying. in reality its better to call on the radio trying to get an answer on the phone is very time consuming.

FK

[chevvron]

The London Info FISO has computer input on which they can just tap in the DA number and it comes up with any notified activity. Normal ATC units (LARS) are unlikely to have this, but Plymouth Mil will have the info as one of the reasons they exist is to provide services to aircraft in the vicinity of the channel DAs.

[peterh337]

Under ICAO, the flight information service (called basic service in the UK, e.g. London Info) is supposed to be able to give you that sort of info.

There are indeed phone numbers for a lot of them but they can be hard to dig out, and obviously, short of having a satellite phone, you cannot really use them while airborne.

The above general comments apply UK and abroad.

A foreign pilot flying via the UK is unlikely to know about Plymouth Military for example.

[BEagle]

Plenty of information (including frequencies) regarding DACS / DAAIS is printed on the CAA half-mill chart.

Of course if you're a child of the magenta and turn your nose up at the thought of a paper chart, then you won't have such information unless it's buried in some file on your latest iTab in-cockpit fashion accessory.....

Surely something this basic is still taught at PPL level?

It's also available in the UK Mil AIP - which is hidden behind a paywall, unfortunately. It seems you have to pay for safety in the UK, even though your taxes paid for it in the first place.....:ugh:

[soaringhigh650]

It's also available in the UK Mil AIP - which is hidden behind a paywall, unfortunately. It seems you have to pay for safety in the UK, even though your taxes paid for it in the first place.....:ugh:


I guess it says a lot about the military wanting (or not wanting!) civilians to land at their fields.

Seriously, who would pay to get the AIP when it they have already been funded out of taxation? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[piperarcher]

Plenty of information (including frequencies) regarding DACS / DAAIS is printed on the CAA half-mill chart.


Indeed. I recently did a VFR flight to Cherbourg via the KATHY intersection which is just south of the Isle of Wight. I recalled there is a VFR preferred crossing across the water route displayed on the half million chart, and there is an information box which mentions these Danger Areas and advises to contact Plymouth Military, also listing their frequency.

PiperArcher

[rich_g85]

I can't tell whether your comments were directed specifically at me BEagle, but I'll answer them anyway. Firstly I don't have any devices capable of producing a magenta line, as I actually quite enjoy dead reckoning. So yes, paper chart all the way for me. As for it being taught at PPL level: yes, I'm sure the answer is most likely to be in the green Air Navigation textbook. Perhaps I should have just re-read the relevant chapter rather than bothering PPRuNe with "something this basic"!

[Katamarino]

Seriously, who would pay to get the AIP when it they have already been funded out of taxation?

This is how most government "services" work these days. Passports, Drivers Licences, the whole of the CAA, parking permits...pay once through tax, and then pay again when you actually need the service!

[Prop swinger]

Rich,

If you look on the chart you will see 3 symbols in front of D026. A quick look at the legend will inform you that one symbol tells you that you can phone Plymouth Ops before take off; another tells you that London Information will provide an activity information service over the radio.

You may also find ENR 5-1 & ENR 6-5-1-1 (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=4&Itemid=11.html) useful.

There are indeed phone numbers for a lot of them but they can be hard to dig outAs well as being in the AIP they are written on the flipping chart!

[BEagle]

I can't tell whether your comments were directed specifically at me BEagle

They weren't - they were intended to be generic.

[maxred]

Ahhh..... charts, remember those;)

[mad_jock]

Sorry way to much vino please ignore.

[BEagle]

I did rather have a mental image of a Rab C Nesbit soundalike in a bit of a "Ha' a drink wi' me, pal?" state of mind.....;)

How's the head today, m_J?

Times have changed at Brize now - for the better! Many years ago I took off from Benson to climb to FL100 for some hi-rot spinning - and the only clear patch was north of Brize. Well to the south of them, I gave them a courtesy call to advise that I was passing FL45 and would be climbing to FL100 through their overhead, remaining outside the CTR. Whereupon some rancid crone told me "Not above FL60!" in a 'nanny knows best' voice. So I repeated my call and she snapped back with the same 'instruction'.

"Well, I tried to be helpful. Anyway, I will be climbing FL100 and I will be remaining outside the CTR. Squawking 7000, changing to en-route, good-day....click!".

Then a little devil on my shoulder turned Mode C off until I was clear of their overhead....:E Childish? Yes - but it made the point!

[mad_jock]

Alot better than it should be.

Which is just as well because I am off to look round some cathedrals in 35 deg heat.

Then more than likely drink a load of wine again cause its cheaper than Diet coke. Might give the spicy tapas sausage a miss this time though, a meal which just carrys on giving you its full flavour.

[BEagle]

Might give the spicy tapas sausage a miss this time though..

Ah yes, the excellent pija de burro con ajo y paprika! Can't beat it with some cold San Miguel!

[soaringhigh650]

Whereupon some rancid crone told me "Not above FL60!" in a 'nanny knows best' voice. So I repeated my call and she snapped back with the same 'instruction'. "Well, I tried to be helpful. Anyway, I will be climbing FL100 and I will be remaining outside the CTR. Squawking 7000, changing to en-route, good-day....click!".

BEagle, when you have chosen to participate in an optional area of air traffic coverage, those vectors/altitude assignments are GIVEN TO YOU FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY as well as others.

You may of course leave the frequency and go back to your own eyeball, but trust me, using that alone isn't perfect, let alone switching off your xpdr.

Always better to make use of any available radar services than not to!

[BEagle]

soaringhigh650, you clearly do not understand the way ATSOCAS works in the UK.

The top of the Brize CTR is 3500 ft QNH, above that it is Class G airspace. My call was to provide the Brize Radar controller with my intentions, to assist them in whatever strategic planning they might consider for separation directions to any IFR inbound or outbound traffic operating under a 'deconflcition' service. The ATCO was emphatically not providing any 'vectors or altitude assignment' under the 'basic' service under which I was operating. Hence she had no right whatsoever to issue any orders or instructions under those circumstances.

Requests for co-ordination are one thing, inappropriate overcontrol of aircraft in Class G quite another.

[soaringhigh650]

to assist them in whatever strategic planning .. she had no right whatsoever to issue any orders or instructions under those circumstances.


And their strategic planning was that they would ideally like you to remain below FL60.

There is no such thing as "inappropriate over-control" unless maybe you've been sent flying on far too much extra track miles or maybe stuck in a hold for way too long without any updates.

How would you like it if you got involved in several close encounters with other planes in the sky because you decided to have enough? Your pilot frends could have been at FL65, another at FL70, and another at FL75...

Who knows the bigger picture than the controlling facility that you are already talking to?

And how do you think I like it if I've been recommended to fly extra miles to avoid you just because I hear you come on frequency, said "don't bother me no more", came off frequency and switched off your xpdr?

[BEagle]

And their strategic planning was that they would ideally like you to remain below FL60.

There is no such thing as "inappropriate over-control" unless maybe you've been sent flying on far too much extra track miles or maybe stuck in a hold for way too long without any updates.



I don't know why I'm bothering to reply as you clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

However, my exercise had a mandatory spin entry height of FL100 and it took a long time to reach that level - an unnecessary level-off would have extended the sortie time considerably.

A simple request to amend heading for coordination would have been fine - this abrupt and terse attempt at overcontrol was indeed completely unacceptable.

[soaringhigh650]

you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about... an unnecessary level-off would have extended the sortie time considerably... abrupt and terse attempt at overcontrol was indeed completely unacceptable.

Because you chose not to level off, and instead left the frequency and switched off your xpdr (which of course is fully within your rights), I think you have displayed pretty poor airmanship at the time.

You're not the only one in the sky!

[BEagle]

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

In the UK, there is no requirement to speak to anyone in gin-clear VMC in Class G airspace under the conditions I described.

[GeeWhizz]

Airway L9 has a base of FL65 over northern side of the Brize overhead, FL105 in the southern half. That's not class G... that's class A :ugh:

I hope there were no CAS infringements :suspect:

[BEagle]

The airways had different names back then - and anyway, I was well clear of all CAS throughout. We all new exactly where the airspace boundaries were by reference to prominent ground features and VOR/DME plot - it was our very well known local flying area, after all......

[soaringhigh650]

BEagle,

Of course I know you don't have to talk to anyone in Class G. Or even Class E when VFR, or even in the TRSA.

That is not my point.

My point is that you decided to check into a facility, then didn't like what you were advised to do which was for everyone's benefit, then left claiming you were "over-controlled" and switched off your transponder.

That's bad airmanship in my book.

[mad_jock]

Geewhiz wind your neck in.

You are talking to civi equiv to a tre on tridents.

Brize are a bunch ATS of class G operating as if its class A.

Yes the are CAS issues but we know where the CAZ is. Due to the MIL AIP becoming a commercial money spinner civi's don't have access to the instrument procedures.

Fundementally if you are working class G you are on your tod. If you upgrade your service you have to accept you will be moved for traffic. If you decide to down grade you can do what you like. If you want protection you have to do what you are told and if some one says sod you on a lower service you have to either take it on the chin and take the track miles or down graded. Your choice as PIC.

In class G no ATC is going to tell me where to fly, they can request but they cannot tell me. If i decided i want more protection I just have to accept I will be moved to get the required seperation.

I will say though to ATS what my intentions are and that is what I will do. They can request but they cannot require me to fly in a certain manner.

The airmanship bollocks you have to do what a Service provider tells you to do in class G is utter bollocks. Class G is bandit country if you can't accept that, don't operate in that class of airspace.

Soaring you are talking ****e Class G you are on your tod you do what you like and if controller starts controlling in a manner which you don't like bin them. Any person who operates in that airspace who doesn't understand that they have zero prtection should NOT be operating in that class of airspace.

[soaringhigh650]

mad_jock,

If you don't want traffic advisories, don't use the service and waste everyone's time. Listen in on frequency if you prefer.

If you want traffic advisories and you are given something you don't like, just ask to see when and how you can be accommodated. Most controllers are actually nice people.

Don't run off and switch off your xpdr the moment things ain't to your liking.

[mad_jock]

I doud't very much if he was, he was more than likely on an information service because otherwise he would be on a sticky wicket when he told them to foxtrot oscar.

If a controller try to move you in class G for their benefit and it is not a request they get told to foxtrot oscar end of story.

If they then try to bully you into being controlled then sod them you are then unkown traffic. If other aircraft operating in class G get screwed they have a choice of dropping there service level or take track miles end of story.

If you don't like operating in bandit country or are talent limited that you can't, keep your arse in class A.

Personally I would never accepted an advisory servise off brize because it would be like taking you pants down in covent garden. It wouldn't be a question of if you were going to get shafted it would be when you were going to get shafted up the arse.

And I know controllers are nice people but if you think me a BEagle are nasty you should see a ATCO on the tit. Brutal is the understatment of the year when subjected to talent limited piss taking service which unfortunately can be expected by some units in the UK.

[riverrock83]

Out of curiosity - what does a request (rather than an instruction) sound like from ATC?
I've been in the "Cumbernauld Gap" where Glasgow CTA starts at 3000 feet. On a basic service from Glasgow Radar they've mentioned (for want of a better word) staying below 2000'. I'd planned 2500 (which I told them). I know I could have done a MJ, stopped talking to them and followed my plan but presumably they were vectoring traffic overhead in the CTA into Glasgow so I obeyed. Didn't sound like a request though. Is it the magic word "cleared" that makes the difference?

[pulse1]

Possible example of Brize ATC expecting others to conform to their own interpretation of ATC here:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Airbus%20A300-605R%20TC-MNV%20and%20Chinook%20HC2%20ZA720%2007-12.pdf

[mad_jock]

Well the usually start it with "request"

And then when they want something the good ones will tell you why.

To be honest as part of your planning its worth looking which way Glasgow is landing.

If they are on westerlys they will want you to stay low and easterlies they won't be bothered if your right on the edge of CAS.

[FullWings]

This is not a new issue (ATC trying to control aircraft outside controlled airspace) but I have to say it seems to be becoming more commonplace.

I have nothing but praise for 99% of controllers I speak to but there are just a few who insist on attempting to organise traffic in class G, even when on a basic service. There is no point trying to keep people away from somewhere like the Brize overhead because the ones who don't care (or don't even have a radio) will not be talking to them. Given the shortly-going-live Olympic airspace :ugh:, expect even more traffic routing over there. VFR/IFR, you name it.

Recently, I asked for a clearance through XXX (shades of CHIRP here!) and it came back with conditions I would have had difficulty complying with, so I politely declined and stated I would remain clear of CAS and take a longer route round. Having a GPS moving map as well as a paper one, I was able to navigate accurately around the airspace boundary. The controller got more and more agitated, as I was "close" to his airspace - I reassured him that yes, I knew where I was and no, I wasn't going to bust his patch. It got to the point where I offered to turn off the transponder and say goodbye, if that would make his life easier! He declined.

What is frustrating about episodes like that is that I was trying to do the right thing - keep ATC and other traffic informed about my position and intentions - but it appeared that I would have caused less of a problem if I was just another "unknown primary return". The controller was more concerned about me *outside* of his airspace than he was about silent returns or mode-A only that could easily have been vertically infringing. A lot of traffic information given to IFR aircraft in his zone was of the "unknown contact" variety.

I'd have thought as a controller, you have to assume that if the airspace you're responsible for starts 15 miles away, at 15.01 miles there is a wall of aircraft filling the sky who are neither visible on radar nor willing/able to talk to you. That's how I'd view it, anyway. Same goes in the vertical.

[Pull what]

Usual self appointed experts talking **** again.

DACS or Danger Area Crossing Service. This is provided on the South Coast by Plymouth Military Radar during its’ hours of operation (Mon-Thurs 0800-1700 Fri 0800-1400) on frequency 124.15 East of Berry Head and 121.25 to the west of Berry Head. This service can give you up to date information on the status of the areas and advise you on the best possible route, avoiding any hazardous activity along with providing an ATC service. Outside the above hours of operation, the DACS is handed to the military at the London ACC, Swanwick and can be accessed through London FIR on 124.75 or Swanwick Military on 135.15. Note. Even though Plymouth Military may be closed, the Danger Areas remain active in accordance with the times published in the UKAIP and any NOTAMs.
DAAIS or Danger Area Activity Information Service. Information on planned activity can be obtained 24 hours a day from FOST Operations on 01752 557550.