How to fly IFR during the Olympics?

[peterh337]

They are imposing a strict slot allocation system for all IFR procedures, though it should only be for procedures which connect to flights into enroute CAS (London Control).

The obvious solution - Z and Y flight plans - is going to be banned.

The bizzare thing is that e.g. a Z departure will be banned even if the VFR-IFR transition is outside UK airspace. In reality, e.g. departing the s. coast VFR, one only just reaches the ~FL075 base of CAS (SE piston, not a bizjet or an F16) by the time one enters French airspace, and even in a jet this would be no big deal, so I don't understand why Z is banned outright. Maybe it was the only way they could work it as a Eurocontrol restriction.

The upshot of this is that a lot of IFR traffic will be flying on V flight plans, probably filed on the Eurocontrol routes, and on the way out of the UK will be asking for a popup IFR clearance. This will probably work in France, where the lower airspace system is continuous FL065-FL200 and you can fly the same routes VFR FL065-FL115. But it will be "fun" elsewhere. But it will be hard on the way back to the UK, coming from possibly much further out. I would bet most countries won't entertain it.

[bookworm]

The bizzare thing is that e.g. a Z departure will be banned even if the VFR-IFR transition is outside UK airspace.

And where do you get this from?

[peterh337]

An ATCO, today.

[UV]

This was discussed at the very beginning of the Olympic plans when Timothy was looking for comments on here.
It was pointed out that Y and Z flight plans are legally required for all airways departures and arrivals from airfields in the restricted zone which do not have an approved approach proceedure.
I'm not sure what was done about it.
I fear you are way too late bringing it up now.

[FlyingSportsman]

This all seems to be over the top :ugh: I can't see how all these restrictions are necessary, what can I do from my 110kt Cessna? By the time I'm anywhere near London, they're will be a bunch of fighters on my tail :E.

Understandably there are faster aircraft that could pose a threat to the olympics, but surely the security services need to look at an average airfield, containing <150Kias cruise aircraft and chaps looking to go for a quiet local bimble and really reconsider their choices, know its not gonna happen but still a little silly I think.

Alot of money and effort which could be avoided in certain areas.. Gliders with mandatory transponders 40 miles from the games... not to mention a 2000' max alt under the LTMA:*

FS :ok:

[UV]

not to mention a 2000' max alt under the LTMA


Where does that come from?

[AdamFrisch]

Just turn your transponders off and sneak out low;). How many times have you heard "altitude unknown", or seen the replays of the fantastic wide berths Heathrow have to force their jetliners to do when someone penetrates the A without a code? They basically can't tell what altitude you're at because radar is not very precise. Ask yourself - if radar was so precise, then surely, they wouldn't need a blanket no-fly zone, right?

I'm not saying you should do this, but I also understand it's in their interest to make you believe that they can see, hear and track everything very precisely. It's part of keeping you in check to have you fear that. My subversive nature tells me it would be nice to find out how much you could tweek the nose of the George Orwells. I'm not going to do it, but I'd certainly love to see someone else do it.

[High_Expect]

Adam whilst a single land based radar may be incapable of providing an accurate height read out (and as you correctly state - land based radar may not see you at all at low alt) what is about to happen is somewhat out of the norm. All restricted airspace will be monitored by the military using the Air Defence radar network. There will also be several airborne radars adding to the 'picture' at any given time. In summary they will see you (do some google research of the abilities of ASTOR) it will give you a rough idea of military capabilities. If it moves - its tracked. Or as the Americans put it so well 'In god we trust. All others we watch closely'. Aghh sod it, encourage your mates to test the system. It will get me off the Xbox for a couple of hours and it's been a few months since I last fired an ASRAAM ;)

[peterh337]

It was pointed out that Y and Z flight plans are legally required for all airways departures and arrivals from airfields in the restricted zone which do not have an approved approach proceedure.In the UK, Y and Z never normally need to be used, because (unlike say Germany) UK allows "I" flight plans to/from non-IAP airfields.

However, the severe IFR slot system imposed during the olympic saga (typ. 1 or 2 IFR slots per hour) will mean the slots will be grabbed quickly by those who get in first, and any subsequent traffic will have to travel VFR.

Which is OK if you are hacking around UK Class G, or popping over to N France etc. But let's say you want to fly to Croatia and everybody has grabbed the slots at your airfield :ugh:

Logically, a Z flight plan, with a changeover at say KONAN, would do it perfectly. But these are (according to the ATCO I spoke to, who ought to know what he has been told to operate) to be banned.

So the only way will be a V FP to say LFAT, and an I FP from there onwards.

On top of that we seem to have a confusion on whether the IFR slots are for any IFR flight (including e.g. IR training flights going to bang a local Class D ILS) or just for flights into London Control airspace.

The text on that has recently changed (see thread on this recently) and it appears to be the latter, which is much more sensible.

Adam whilst a single land based radar may be incapable of providing an accurate height read out

ATC radar doesn't give any height data. Neither does any "PPI" radar including military. Only the more complex military radars (probably all phased array nowadays) can give you height info.

[High_Expect]

Many non phased array military radars do give height read out.

[bookworm]

An ATCO, today.

Perhaps you could ask your ATCO where this restriction is published. It doesn't appear to be in the slot coordination AIC, nor in a Supp.

[peterh337]

Many non phased array military radars do give height read out.

I wonder how they work? I know how it was done in the 1950s, with a "nodding head" radar, for the PAR approaches (or a similar mechanical implementation).

Perhaps you could ask your ATCO where this restriction is published. It doesn't appear to be in the slot coordination AIC, nor in a Supp.

I will ask.

essentially touch and go, then do an I from them?

If one could do a T&G that would be a brilliant solution to a lot of stuff, especially getting into the Schengen zone :) :) Any French airport that offers that facility is going to get a lot of business :)

[Stinger]

As I studied my copy of London 2012 Airspace - Actions On Interception, and as I noted the threat that failure 'to comply ... may result in the use of lethal force', a couple of thoughts come to mind.
1. I believe it is true to say that our gallant Royal Air Force has never actually shot down an enemy aircraft since the end of WWII. It would be a very special irony if they were to make their first 'kill' in 67 years a PA28 or R22 out on a quiet 'local bimble'.
2. If that, fortunately very unlikely, tragic event should occur, would that constitute a government sanctioned death penalty without any trial? Even the 'Lockerbie Bomber' was treated more fairly than that. AND then he went home after a few years.
I wonder if High_Expect will be flying the interceptor?
I guess the real message is that the bad guys won the war some time ago, we just never noticed - and now the rest of us are putting up with the consequences.

[peterh337]

and definitely no Z or Y flight plans will be allowed; just checked it again.

However I do wonder if Eurocontrol will be enforcing this.

[Pace]

PBoyall

I did a flight from northern Cyprus to the uk which required a landing in mainland turkey before being allowed to proceed over Greek airspace.
The workaround was to have two flight plans and did not require a touch and go or landing !
The first flight Plan was to overhead the Turkish airport where the first flight plan closed and on the radio at 25000 feet overhead the Turkish airport they opened the second flight plan enroute,
This negated all the hassle of descending and climbing landing etc and purely required an overfly at altitude

Pace

[peterh337]

I always "knew" that was possible, simply because nobody but the man in the tower is going to know what actually happened, but you do need the co-operation from the man in the tower :)

One could achieve the same by filing to an unmanned airport, or an airport which is closed at the relevant time, and either pre-filing the onward flight plan for an accurately estimated EOBT or getting somebody on the ground to file it at just the right time (perhaps on receipt of an SMS from you when you are about to be in the right place). You would probably have to descend to a fairly low level so that the next unit can see you climbing when you call them up.

Of course with a basically functional satellite phone data link you could just file any flight plan for yourself while you are airborne, and in principle there is nothing particularly dodgy about doing that because e.g. on a departure from a Class G airport you may not get talking to an IFR controller for say half an hour anyway, so you could do a nice tour of the countryside while they are sorting out the IFR clearance....

If I can think of these methods in the time it took me to type this..........

[500 above]

Pace, if you only have an Ercan exit stamp you're going to have problems with entry into the Republic of Cyprus, the legitimate side of the country. Let's hope no stamps were involved should you need to go to either of those! Chaos corner...I know Ercan don't always stamp you out.

[Pace]

500 above it was going out of Cyprus with their co operation not in!

Pace

[Contacttower]

Peter have you had a look at the Shoreham slot allocations? Are they all taken up already?

I just had a look at the website (https://www.online-coordination.com) that one is supposed to check; for my home airfield, Thruxton, I was somewhat surprised to see only two per hour on most days. What I thought was weird though is that it only lists slots being available from 0700-1900 each day, ie 0800-2000 local, earlier and later than that is listed as having zero slots throughout the period. Does that mean that I literally can't file IFR before 8 o'clock in the morning or does the co-ordination only come into force at that time? I'm a bit confused and the 100+ page airspace guide hasn't really helped. :confused:

[Satcop]

Her is the link direct to declared capacity for the temporary IFR co-ordinated aerodromes ACL Capacity Declaration. (http://acl-uk.org/UserFiles/File/SCC%202012%20Olympics%20Airport%20Capacity%20Declarations%20-%2010JUL12.pdf)

Aerodromes had to state their operating hours and ACL then produced the "declared capacity." For the majority of aerodromes the number stated is per hour.

[peterh337]

Shoreham lists only 2 per hour during its opening times, but only 1 per hour during the early morning (PPR) times.

This is more or less unusable.

With Z and Y banned, I am trying to work out a way of departing V and then changing to I, or changing to a new flight plan, enroute.

Is it actually illegal to commence a flight plan from a given airport without departing from its runway e.g. by being overhead and talking to it?

One foreign ATCO told me that if I file V on a pre-validated Eurocontrol route (which is obviously trivial) then changing it to I while I am flying is very easy.

The thing to which I have been completely unable to get an answer is whether the UK will be getting Eurocontrol to implement the Z/Y ban. If they don't, then I cannot see why one could not just file I from the start but actually remain VFR OCAS in UK airspace. That meets the olympic security :yuk: requirements, after all.

[mm_flynn]

Peter,

I hadn't thought about it until you posted, but it would certainly seem reasonable to file a flight plan from a ZZZZ airport (i.e. a random lat/lon), depart Shoreham VFR and then activate the flightplan when you are near that lat/lon.

Returning is probably more complex in that HMRC et al use the flightplan to understand where you are going to arrive. Once in the Olympic period, I would try a Z plan with the transition prior to the UK FIR. This certainly achieves the spirit of the regs (not over burdening London Control with too many aircraft and not having lots of people cancel IFR one waypoint before an airport and then stooge around at low level.

I suspect as well the IFR system for the small/distant airports will loosen up a bit (or may have very few slots booked).

[soaringhigh650]

Try emailing [email protected] for the official answer? They've published a 114 page guide as well.

[peterh337]

mm_flynn

That is a brilliant idea :ok:

Together with flying VFR (I mean OCAS ;) ) from ZZZZ to the UK FIR boundary, that has to work.

Might have to do some aerobatics if say going to France, because if you turn up at say ALESO at FL074 you won't be able to call up (AFAIK) Paris Control; you will call up Lille and then ask for a climb say FL140 and then they will transfer you to Paris Control, whereas if you came off London Control you would get handed to Paris Control straight off. This has some impact on the kind of wx you are dealing with prior to ALESO; you don't want to be collecting ice at FL074 and with an unknown amount of IMC above you.

The return to the UK is not a problem, as it happens, because it is wholly legitimate to file IFR to e.g. LTQ and when overhead LTQ you divert to the intended UK (south coast, outside the olympic zone) destination. At the same time you cancel IFR. The Captain can divert anywhere he wants. That kind of thing is illegit only if you are breaching Schengen Customs rules etc.

So the flight to the UK is wholly VFR and not bound by slots.

If you want to make it even more proper, file the UK destination as the alternate on the flight plan and they will then have a copy of the flight plan. Not that that means anything because AFAIK filing some airport as the alternate doesn't mean anything, and doesn't do anything more than if you addressed that airport separately on the flight plan (or just phoned them of your ETA).

I have today been told that Eurocontrol will not only enforce the Z/Y ban but will also enforce the slots so if e.g. the airport has 2 slots for 0900-1000 and 1 person files IFR for 0905 and another files IFR for 0930 then when you try to file IFR for 0945, Eurocontrol will refuse to accept the flight plan. This really suprised me...

[Contacttower]

Shoreham probably has a lot more IFR traffic than say Thruxton or Old Sarum but unless I really need to leave at a certain time I'm not too bothered about the possibility of having to alter my timings by an hour or two to get an IFR slot. By all means try and get around the system but would it really be worth the trouble compared to just adjusting one's plans accordingly? Unless of course all the slots are taken...

This whole "co-ordination" thing for these small airfields is such tosh though; I mean yes the London area probably needs rationing but for people going South from the coast towards Europe at light aircraft altitudes FL80-140 etc I really don't see how we are bothering London control too much.

I'd curious to see if all this talk of lots of private jet traffic at Biggin Hill etc actually materialises...

[diddy1234]

How are air shows affected by this ?

Or are they affected at all ?

I was thinking of Duxford aerodrome as that is covered by this blanket ban.

When airshows are on, there are a few pilots that fly in.
Am I correct in thinking that VFR flights can be taken as long as a flight plan is sent to the relevant powers that be ?

[UL730]

For the benefit of any miscreant that does not follow the rules - these guys will probably be delighted to explore a deep meaningful conversation with you.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/13/article-2173122-140C2335000005DC-845_634x751.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/13/article-2173122-140C23BC000005DC-59_634x423.jpg

Incidently anyone know exactly what those pointy things are :confused:

Images © Associated Newspapers Ltd: Owners of Daily Mail

[Proteus9]

The chap on the left has changed guns between shots. Starts of with an Accuracy International rifle then goes to some AR looking variant . The other fellow has a semi auto 12 bore, presumably a winchester or remmington. I can't see what use the shotgun would be for anything other than bothering people past about 50 yards. Perhaps he keeps guard of the helicopter if they have to land in a built up area...

[peterh337]

Check the URL of those pics - Daily Mail :)