Choosing an Instructor for the PPL

[Big Pistons Forever]

This post is related to an earlier question about which was better to learn on; the C 152 or the Pa 38. I responded in that thread that I thought it did not matter the only really important issue was the quality of the instruction.

Rather than cause thread creep I thought I would expand on that thought in a new thread.

As a person who has been instructing full and part over 23 + years I am continually amazed at how little research students often do before starting flying training. I think it is vital that every student starts with the premise that they are the customer and that it is up to the school to sell them on why they should train at that school.

I think it is entirely appropriate to talk to current students to get some impressions of who the school operates and IMO it is absolutely vital that the school can articulate and present a complete plan on how you will get from zero to PPL.

You will mostly likely get assigned an instructor, which is not necessarily bad, however in the first few flights it will become obvious if the two of you are a good fit. It is absolutely vital that you tell your instructor if things are not working out and if things do not improve you talk to the CFI. I tell all my students that there will a review of how things are going at the the 5 hour mark. If it is not working for either of us I will arrange a new instructor for them.

Finally I tell students that flight instruction demands a two way commitment.

From me:

- Every flight will start with a clear briefing on what the objectives of the flight and the preparatory ground instruction appropriate to the exercise

-in the air we will not progress to the next exercise until you are ready

- Flight safety will be the primary concern for everything we do

From the student

- I will show up on time and mentally ready to learn

- I will complete the homework assigned

- I will give you honest feed back on how things are going and listen to what you have to say

[Grob Queen]

BPF,
Thankyou for your post, and a thought provoking one. Made me think about the ok probably rather bizarre way I chose my club to learn at and not at all as you advise, but that being so, I am extremely happy with both QFI and club.

I chose my club as it is where I work and literally a walk over the road and I can also fly in works time (health warning here, I do put in more hours than i am contracted to do...before anyone leaps on me about that!) It is also relatively cheap being a Service Club, no landing fees etc.

From your suggestions, apart from knowing I wanted to fly light SEP aircraft, I went into it blind - and wow, I just wouldn't want to be anywhere else! I did not get a PPL course plan or talk to any of the members except our CFI and the (now Ex) Ops member who allocated me an instructor out of about 7. I must say, that choice was inspired. We just clicked from Straight and level 1 and now54hrs and still learning later my instructor is also a good friend. We socialise, we chat/text on the phone, he will help me out with any ground issues I have (currently venturi and Bernoullis Theorum...why wasn't that guy shot??!!)

We did not review at the 5hr mark because we did not need to. I think that it would be obvious if you did not gel (like with my first driving instructor) and of course the older you are, the more likely you are to say something.

I think IMHO from a student point of view is fairly obvious and does not need to be stated, as the very fact that you are willing to commit to the time, long hard slog of learning and the financial commitment too, means that all those things are taken as read. They have never even been mentioned between my instructor and I as he knows I will take it all seriously and learn and he also knows I will shout if there is anything I don't understand.

Briefings, well, we started off as you say, but now, unless it is totally new (like IF the other day) its laid back "Well, I think we'll do some nav today" or " I really want you to practise Steep turns this time" or "we'd better spend some more time in the cct don't you think?" or even "what would you like to do today?" Yep, its a two way thing but very much as equals, we do not have the instructor/student relationship any more, we fly as friends and I think that is great and much better for a relaxed learning environment.

Just my experience and I guess I'm lucky to have a fab instructor, with other great friends in a fab club! Will be interested to hear others experiences.

[peterh337]

Good post BPF.

I think one issue is that most punters understandably don't have a clue as to what to expect, watch out for, etc. I certainly didn't when I started.

The more aggressive / driven professional/business people probably do expect good organisation and conduct but these things are rarely found on the PPL training scene where most training businesses are run on the back of a fag packet. Accordingly, many instructors have written scathing pieces in rags like FTN on how hard the "type A" students are to train.

I think there are parallels between the PPL training scene and the avionics / general maintenance scene. All these businesses are geared up to make money out of a customer base which is mostly skint (or is not skint but is tight, so the effect is the same) and thus are unable to provide a professional service to the customers who are willing to pay for it. You take your plane to an avionics shop for a major job and they quote 3 weeks but actually it is 6 weeks, starting from when the previous customer stops screaming at them. It isn't just training; it's the whole GA business that is struggling to share out a very thin pizza.

Then you get side issues like hour building instructors whose mind is on (1) the airline job adverts and (2) whether the gurl student that's just walked through the door might be a good shag :)

The other thing you touch on is student doing some preparation. Most don't, I never did, and now I am trying to get my son to do some before his lessons. It saves a lot of money.

[peterh337]

You describe the US system where you can go from zero to ATP without going anywhere near a "school", let alone a Part 141 school.

Concepts (or should I say "corrupting ideas") like that would have you locked up in this place called Europe :E

[The500man]

BPF,

It looks like you take a more professional approach to training than 90+% of instructors do! The 5 hour review sounds like a great idea. I wish my school had done something like that, and also set out lesson plans for constant progression.

I agree with Peter in that when you are a student you generally have no idea if things are being done in the right way because you have absolutely no clue. Looking back on my own training I can see who the good instructors were now, but at the time it wasn't easy to tell the difference between them and the hour builders (who weren't automatically terrible).

I think students that are most keen to learn tend to be more generally accepting of varying teaching methods than those that think they already know-it-all and are constantly complaining (for no good reason). I wonder how many students would actually speak up and complain about an instructor they didn't think was much good instead of just going with it or worse still believing any problem in their learning was their fault?

[average-punter]

I think one issue is that most punters understandably don't have a clue as to what to expect, watch out for, etc. I certainly didn't when I started.

^this is exactly the problem I'm having!

[abgd]

My (limited) experience of instructors has been mostly positive. Certainly they tend to be several cuts above driving instructors.

As for school organisation... It seems to me that flying at our level can't be scheduled very tightly by its nature. Sometimes the weather's bad. Sometimes a lesson runs on because you have to go around or orbit for ATC. I missed a few lessons to let people do X-countrys, and when some good weather came up for mine somebody else got a call to see whether they could take the aircraft at a different time. Give and take... Take and give.

[A and C]

Peter has got it just about right. When it comes to instructors, most of them are just dreaming of the airline job and you are the means to that end however a fair few do a good professional job.

The ones you have to look out for are those who will drop you towards the end of the course as soon as a new student walks through the door, a lot of these guys have a tendency to not let you fly the aircraft very much and like showing you how good they are, so if they fly the aircraft for anything other than demonstrating technique or aircraft safety or to off load you when they are explaining something you are with the wrong guy.

The best people to fly with are current or retired professional pilots, they are not at the club for the hours or the money, they just want to continue flying and pass on their vast experience.

I was lucky to be of an age that the guys who taught me to fly had flown Hurricanes, Mosquitos, Lancaster's, Viscounts, Tridents, VC10's and yet were more than happy to try to help put right my appalling landings in the PA38.

The final thing is that the two worst taught subjects at PPL level are aerodynamics and aircraft technical, I don't know what to recommend about aerodynamics apart from getting a copy of Kermode's book on the subject. Most of the technical teaching is stuck in the era of the Tiger Moth and so totally outdated and the only way around this one it to talk to the guys who maintain the aircraft.

[Lunchmaster]

A and C has hit the nail on the head. I made the mistake of thinking a young, keen low-hours instructor was the best for me when I started out with the PPL.

It was only later when he'd left for the airlines leaving me ill equipped to pass the test that I realised the big holes in my knowledge and training.

I was then the first student of another young instructor (who had several hundred hours already logged) and he turned out to be excellent. Between him and an older, grey-haired chap who'd been instructing for years I progressed to licence issue, sorting out problems with nav I didn't know were there and also adding a finesse to my flying.

It goes to show that experience counts, not necessarily the age of the instructor. And when you're forking out thousands of pounds for a service it pays to shop around, ask lots of questions and proactively choose the instructor you're comfortable with. Don't just go with whoever the school pushes on you.

Lunchmaster

[Pull what]

That's an excellent post BPF, just one thing I add to your list and that is a completion standard for an exercise. A stated completion standard is in the preflight briefing so the student can make a decision on how he/she feels about the exercise just completed(and included in the exercise handout which includes the homework). Eg. have I gone away from this exercise and learnt the salient points and am I ready to progress to the next exercise. In this way BOTH instructor and student manage progress not just the instructor.

I think the 5 hour idea is great, we have a 12 hour requirement to see how solo(or not) is progressing.

[Pull what]

I was lucky to be of an age that the guys who taught me to fly had flown Hurricanes, Mosquitos, Lancaster's, Viscounts, Tridents, VC10's and yet were more than happy to try to help put right my appalling landings in the PA38.

The final thing is that the two worst taught subjects at PPL level are aerodynamics and aircraft technical, I don't know what to recommend about aerodynamics apart from getting a copy of Kermode's book on the subject. Most of the technical teaching is stuck in the era of the Tiger Moth and so totally outdated and the only way around this one it to talk to the guys who maintain the aircraft.

I could also quote you many of those sorts of guys who are the worst kinds of instructors as well. Just because you flew an airliner or were involved in the war that doesn't make you a good flying instructor. Teaching is vocational and very few actually have that true vocation, many think they have but its more about themselves than it is about their students.

Ive seen brand new instructors teach far better than so called professionals that were doing the job for years and lost their enthusiasm a good while ago.#

Asking an instructor why he/she instructs can be very illuminating!

[Pull what]

The other thing you touch on is student doing some preparation. Most don't, I never did, and now I am trying to get my son to do some before his lessons. It saves a lot of money.

Thats because they are not supervised and directed to. Instruction doesn't just stop 'on blocks'. Instruction should include directed and supervised learning away from the school as well. All of my students receive a handout for each exercise which directs learning & includes a progress test. Obviously I cannot make them do it but when I explain to them after two failures to do the work that it would be better if they discontinue training it always seems to have the desired effect! Sloppy standards produce sloppy students!

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think I'd probably start with:

(1) Do they seem passionate about teaching flying.
(2) Do they seem to be reasonably organised.

If you've nothing else to go on, and so far as you can tell their qualifications are correct, that's probably a good start.

G

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The best people to fly with are current or retired professional pilots
At Cambridge in the good old days, several instructors were current professional test pilots. I never came across any hours builders.

[Shane C]

This is an excellent thread. I can relate to this this very well actually. Upon deciding which flight school to go to etc, I decided on Bournemouth Intl (Solent school of flying) for many reasons, quality of instruction, prices, type of aircraft flown and busy class D airspace which gives the student great experience.

My instructor was a top bloke, really liked him and he was a highly skilled professional who has flown here, there and everywhere! He now flies in an airline job and am very jealous!!

I thought we got on OK but when we were in the air, I felt that my instructor kind of sucked the fun out of flying for me and I started to not enjoy flying.
So I thought of changing instructor's but he left anyway.

[A and C]

You should not be thinking of flying because you have a great career ahead of you as a reporter for The Daily Mail or as a politician, you fail to quote me fully and pick the parts of my post that prove the point that you want to make.

I delt with motivational issues in the paragraph that you tactically left out when quoting my post !

[Pull what]

Thank you but you can be assured when I read your posts I never think of flying.

[A and C]

Thank you for you input but I have no idea what you are trying to say in your last post ??

[Grob Queen]

I'm still following this thread with interest, and am incredibly grateful that I am not learning at a commercial school...because from what you guys say, it seems just that...like school...with homework, tests, directed learning. This would be a total turn off to me! This may be very well for a 17 year old who may need a kick or cannot articulate their thoughts but really?? For an adult?


A stated completion standard is in the preflight briefing so the student can make a decision on how he/she feels about the exercise just completedI


I seem to manage with de-brief discussions with my QFI, I can articulate myself and have an adult conversatoin with him without the need of question papers! Personally as a 30 something student I would find papers asking me how I felt the trip went as an insult :rolleyes:


Thats because they are not supervised and directed to.

How patronising! Again, school leavers maybe, but taking the decision to become a pilot, be it as a hobby (like myself) or as a career is IMHO something which is ingrained, which you have a passion to do. A student pilot should not need to be supervised or directed. If they do then they have chosen the wrong career or hobby!

I don't doubt all the instructors here have good reason for these learning techniques, but I would be interested to hear other student pilots views on this "School kid type" learning. You have to trust your student to use their head and their passion for flying; just as they trust your judgement for when to send them solo etc

Again, my QFI KNOWS I will read up on everything in sight, the trip we've jsut flown, the exams work, he KNOWS that I will call/text him if I have a question regarding anything (and I frequently do). i will make a note of learning points from the sortie but that is something I have worked out for myself.

...Just a viewpoint from an "unsupervised" student pilot ;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

An interesting perspective QG but I beg to differ on a number of points.

I've quite a lot of experience of teaching adults - to MSc and PhD level in universities, in a dojo, and more recently as a flying instructor. It is certainly a very different parish to teaching youngsters, because adults have opinions and commitments that are far more compelling than what most people under 18 have.

But, I do find in all of these environments that directed learning is important. I find in most cases I need to direct students to specific preparation exercises between lessons - a lot of which is reading. I send my Jiu Jitsu students off to practice kata in their back garden, PhD students to prepare their own notes on a subject they need to understand, or flying students to practice route planning. And all of them to read up on stuff they need to understand.

There are however two major differences between these adult learners than if I was teaching under 18s.

- Firstly, they have far more ownership of failure. So, I have to give them every opportunity to pass, but the ability to fail on their own conscience.

- Secondly I cannot simply tell them what to do. I will discuss with them what is appropriate, and agree a plan and philosophy of learning that we then jointly created, rather than what I simply dictated to them.

This second to a large extent may be because I am also generally teaching either a single, or a very small number, of individuals. A large class is a very different beast anyhow.


Progress tests have their place in all of these environments. I will put a student through a practice skill test before presenting them to an examiner, and give detailed feedback. I'll put a Jiu Jitsu student through a simulation of the nastier bits of a grading, and I most definitely put my PhD students through a mock viva before they go up for a real one. Again however, the existence of this is by agreement between I and my student, albeit with very strong direction from me, the teacher.

G

[riverrock83]

I'm at a club where the instructors' experience is immense. The instructors all have other part time jobs involving flying of some sort. They've been there, done that and are still doing and loving it! They are aircraft designers, airline captains, a previous job of one was a "test pilot trainer" in the RAF... most of all they love flying - and it shows.

They are instructing because they love passing on their knowledge. And they aren't even that intimidating! Despite their huge experience, they are still happy to admit they are sometimes wrong (even if that pretty much never happens). They are open to chat away to me and treat me as a person and fellow club member, even if I can't pretend to compete with their chat.

Of course, its not perfect - its run as a club, not a business - the number of available aircraft is small and organisation can be a bit chaotic sometimes, but I know I'm pretty lucky as far as a flying school goes.

My experience is that supervision is with a "light touch". My instructor lets me evaluate my own flight and the de-brief is a detailed discussion (not a lecture). I know myself whether I need to go over that particular lesson again or not (either I'll know before or after the de-brief!), and this will be confirmed by the instructor.

What I wonder about, is that students there are not generally "school leavers" but are either people who have retired or "young adults" working in other jobs (either to pay for the flying or learning as a hobby). I guess that means that my fellow students have a level of maturity that isn't going to be seen everywhere. Perhaps if the students were mainly "School leavers" the style of instruction would need to be quite different?.

[riverrock83]

Perhaps if the students were mainly "School leavers" the style of instruction would need to be quite different?.
I wrote that before reading GtE's post - honest!

[Grob Queen]

Thanks to both Genghis and Riverrock.

Riverrock, it seems that you are as lucky as I in your choice of club and instructors! i wonder, is this because we are in Club environments? My "supervision" could also be described as a (very) "Light touch"... All of your experiences sound very much like mine.

Genghis - I suppose in a way, yes, my FI does sometimes say, have a read on such and such and maybe occasionally gently points me in the right direction. I'm not saying GENTLE persuasion into the students own work is wrong, I suppose what I was really talking about was the strict "Homework" which Pull What seemed to be describing.

We do discuss what trip we are going to do, but I guess what i'm saying is that I am not dictated to in the choice of what is done and how i'm going to learn. Yes, reading between the lines of course, my QFI at the end of the day knows what he wants me to do and I will do it. In the early flights, I read up on each trip. I guess it comes down to personal drive and commitment and learning preference.If the students need that guidance, then its great that its available, but personally I like the - certainly on teh ground - learning side to be my own person in the learning and asking for help when I want it...and believe me, I DO ask...frequently...!!

I guess it depends on the individual student and the instructor and what works best for them.

['India-Mike]

Sadly, clubs are dying. The day of the private members' club running their own aeroplanes, or more particularly aeroplanes supplied by individuals or groups of individuals within the clubs, is going - rapidly. Private individuals simply don't have the wherewithal anymore to run gas-guzzling light aeroplanes - unless they're utterly crap, decrepit, run-on-a-shoestring 50 year old heaps burning stupendous amounts of fuel.

So you either go to a school, which does have the resources to run a decent fleet (eg Tayside up here in the People's Free Socialist Republic of Jockistan with those very very nice Grobs) or in my opinion the future which is micro lights or flexwings. How many aircraft designers, airline captains or ex-ETPS tutors are going to be working in that environment then?

The club is dead-and with it the characters and individuals that made it just that-a club.

[Piper.Classique]

Sadly, clubs are dying. The day of the private members' club running their own aeroplanes, or more particularly aeroplanes supplied by individuals or groups of individuals within the clubs, is going - rapidly. Private individuals simply don't have the wherewithal anymore to run gas-guzzling light aeroplanes - unless they're utterly crap, decrepit, run-on-a-shoestring 50 year old heaps burning stupendous amounts of fuel.

I think you are confusing two different things here. A group of private owners is not the same thing as a club. I fly at a club. We, the members, own two DR 400 aircraft, two microlights, a tug and three gliders. All instruction is done by members part time unpaid. We are registered as a not for profit association. We have the resources to maintain our fleet, people pay to fly just like they do at a commercial operation, only rather less :O
My personal sixty year old gas guzzler lives in the club hangar and pays rent. It is certainly not run on a shoestring, crap, or decrepit. (and it is not available to be flown by other members, although we use it as a standby tug, flown by the owner) I choose to put my money into my choice of aircraft because that is what I want to fly.
The club is far from moribund, we have an active flying and social programme, and none of our instructors use their fellow members as a cheap way to build hours.
Of course you can go to a forprofit school if that is your choice, but please be clear as to the difference between a school, a club, and a syndicate of owners. Please also try not to be rude about other people's preferences and choices.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I do think however it is useful to differentiate between a club and a school. I know that many schools are declared as "clubs" for various legal purposes, but they aren't really.

I'd mark a club as a place which is run by and for the members. I belong to one such - we manage the airfield, have several syndicates running within the club membership, have a couple of part time instructors available to help on people's own aeroplanes, and basically all support each other. We don't have significant formal instruction going on, nor seek it - there are good schools nearby where people can go for anything more complex than a conversion or biennial. It is perfectly possible however for such a club to own aeroplanes and have either paid or unpaid instructors - the important factor is member ownership.

A school is somebody's business, run for profit. It can be well resourced and run, but there are plenty of stories about those which aren't.

An instructor of course is as good as him or herself, and both good or bad may exist in either environment.


There are definitely more clubs in the microlight and gliding world than the "group A" world, but they exist throughout and I don't agree with I-M that they're dead, although I do agree that the mainstream of recreational flying lies away from the increasingly expensive certified GA branch. Microlights and homebuilt light aeroplanes offer flying that's at-least as much fun, increasingly at-least as capable, for a lot less money and are the majority of the future, particularly in the club (as opposed to school) environment.

The future of certified GA is almost certainly in commercial schools and IMC touring and not a lot else. It's just getting too expensive to operate these aeroplanes if you don't have to.

G

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Guys,

I think India Mike was perhaps referring to the flying scene in the UK, but perhaps did not think to limit his written comments accordingly.

As a description of the UK scene, I think his comments are pretty accurate. The UK has, I believe, the second most expensive flying certainly in Europe (After Denmark) and in the world we must surely feature at least within the top ten percentile.

Add to this the gradual loss of aerodromes reducing the number of places you can fly to. These are gradually being barred to us either by commercialisation, which involves landing fees and swingeing compulsory 'handling charges' for handling we don't need, or by building development. Let's look at a small few examples.

The delightful aerodrome that used to be Halfpenny Green is now 'Wolverhampton International Airport' (or some such). Barton Aerodrome is now 'Manchester City Airport'. The long established clubs that used to operate there were just shuffled off the premises. The aerodrome at Lee on Solent fell into the grasp of Hampshire Police, who operated just one aeroplane there but wanted to use part of it as a police dog training establishment. The private flyers were given two weeks to vacate. After a prolonged battle, the aerodrome was saved, but not before the kerfuffle had killed off Carill Aviation, a very long established and well regarded flying establishment. Booker has come under pressure recently because a rugby club wanted it to build a stadium on. Redhill too was recently a target because someone wanted it for a riding establishment. And this sort of thing has been going on for years and years; anybody remember Wolverhampton Fordhouses Aerodrome?

Add to this the new hazard - windfarms! AOPA is currently fighting an epic battle againse more and more of these.

There is probably not a single aerodrome in the Uk that has not recently been, or is currently being, the target for developers of one sort or another. These people have big money and political influence, and by comparison flying clubs are very small hitters and have few friends because we annoy the noise nimbys and flying is regarded as a sport for the rich, privilaged few.

Flying always has been a minority activity, mainly because of cost, but since we have been part of Europe, things have got steadily worse. Apart from France and Germany, most states of the EU have little or no private flying and their representatives sent to Brussels have very little understanding of it. The result is we are now having to fight off massive, massive, massive over-regulation from a largely ignorant, incompetent and uncaring European government structure.

These are not the only reasons why our flying clubs still operate aircraft built in the seventies and eighties, but they certainly have made things a whole lot worse. I won't even go into why there are no British 'Group A' light aircraft in current manufacture. That could take a lot more writing and I haven't the time.

Regards,

BP.

[thing]

I haven't been in the GA world for long. I always try to visit a new airfield everytime I fly (Leicester yesterday) and I usually find a fairly thriving scene; which suggests to me from what has been said that it used to be a lot more thriving than it is now, or I've just been lucky with my choice of airfields.

Flying has always been expensive, in real terms it's cheaper (for me) now than it would have been 40 years ago so I can't see the argument that it's being priced out of existence. I can't comment on over regulation as the regulations now are the same more or less as when I started so have nothing to compare it to.

Coming from the gliding world I'm happy to report that AFAIK the gliding scene continues to thrive.

[Grob Queen]

I'd mark a club as a place which is run by and for the members.

Totally agree, and that is how we promote our Club. We are a happy and thriving club with two club aircraft and a member owned one which club members use, we have a syndicate and other privately owned aircraft of various types. Only yesterday, i was at the Club after work for secretarial rather than flying reasons. Three of the guys were there; we were chatting away; one was going for a bimble to Shackwell Farm strip and offered me the RHS. Of course I leapt at the chance and had an excellent couple of hours with more experience of flying another type, of being pax whilst landing on a small grass strip and chatting to the farmer (the owner ) about his aircraft and land. Could this sort of camaraderie of flying be found at a school? We have our annual Fly In and club fly-outs....are these arranged by schools?

I hope that as long as there are pilots out there who want the club atmosphere and are enthusiastic and happy to take a full part in membership of their own club then whatever external pressures there are from outside, there will always be enough spirit on the GA club scene to keep it thriving in the UK. Am I being naieve? Hmm, I hope not....:)