Choosing an Instructor for the PPL
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Choosing an Instructor for the PPL
This post is related to an earlier question about which was better to learn on; the C 152 or the Pa 38. I responded in that thread that I thought it did not matter the only really important issue was the quality of the instruction.
Rather than cause thread creep I thought I would expand on that thought in a new thread.
As a person who has been instructing full and part over 23 + years I am continually amazed at how little research students often do before starting flying training. I think it is vital that every student starts with the premise that they are the customer and that it is up to the school to sell them on why they should train at that school.
I think it is entirely appropriate to talk to current students to get some impressions of who the school operates and IMO it is absolutely vital that the school can articulate and present a complete plan on how you will get from zero to PPL.
You will mostly likely get assigned an instructor, which is not necessarily bad, however in the first few flights it will become obvious if the two of you are a good fit. It is absolutely vital that you tell your instructor if things are not working out and if things do not improve you talk to the CFI. I tell all my students that there will a review of how things are going at the the 5 hour mark. If it is not working for either of us I will arrange a new instructor for them.
Finally I tell students that flight instruction demands a two way commitment.
From me:
- Every flight will start with a clear briefing on what the objectives of the flight and the preparatory ground instruction appropriate to the exercise
-in the air we will not progress to the next exercise until you are ready
- Flight safety will be the primary concern for everything we do
From the student
- I will show up on time and mentally ready to learn
- I will complete the homework assigned
- I will give you honest feed back on how things are going and listen to what you have to say
Rather than cause thread creep I thought I would expand on that thought in a new thread.
As a person who has been instructing full and part over 23 + years I am continually amazed at how little research students often do before starting flying training. I think it is vital that every student starts with the premise that they are the customer and that it is up to the school to sell them on why they should train at that school.
I think it is entirely appropriate to talk to current students to get some impressions of who the school operates and IMO it is absolutely vital that the school can articulate and present a complete plan on how you will get from zero to PPL.
You will mostly likely get assigned an instructor, which is not necessarily bad, however in the first few flights it will become obvious if the two of you are a good fit. It is absolutely vital that you tell your instructor if things are not working out and if things do not improve you talk to the CFI. I tell all my students that there will a review of how things are going at the the 5 hour mark. If it is not working for either of us I will arrange a new instructor for them.
Finally I tell students that flight instruction demands a two way commitment.
From me:
- Every flight will start with a clear briefing on what the objectives of the flight and the preparatory ground instruction appropriate to the exercise
-in the air we will not progress to the next exercise until you are ready
- Flight safety will be the primary concern for everything we do
From the student
- I will show up on time and mentally ready to learn
- I will complete the homework assigned
- I will give you honest feed back on how things are going and listen to what you have to say
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BPF,
Thankyou for your post, and a thought provoking one. Made me think about the ok probably rather bizarre way I chose my club to learn at and not at all as you advise, but that being so, I am extremely happy with both QFI and club.
I chose my club as it is where I work and literally a walk over the road and I can also fly in works time (health warning here, I do put in more hours than i am contracted to do...before anyone leaps on me about that!) It is also relatively cheap being a Service Club, no landing fees etc.
From your suggestions, apart from knowing I wanted to fly light SEP aircraft, I went into it blind - and wow, I just wouldn't want to be anywhere else! I did not get a PPL course plan or talk to any of the members except our CFI and the (now Ex) Ops member who allocated me an instructor out of about 7. I must say, that choice was inspired. We just clicked from Straight and level 1 and now54hrs and still learning later my instructor is also a good friend. We socialise, we chat/text on the phone, he will help me out with any ground issues I have (currently venturi and Bernoullis Theorum...why wasn't that guy shot??!!)
We did not review at the 5hr mark because we did not need to. I think that it would be obvious if you did not gel (like with my first driving instructor) and of course the older you are, the more likely you are to say something.
I think IMHO from a student point of view is fairly obvious and does not need to be stated, as the very fact that you are willing to commit to the time, long hard slog of learning and the financial commitment too, means that all those things are taken as read. They have never even been mentioned between my instructor and I as he knows I will take it all seriously and learn and he also knows I will shout if there is anything I don't understand.
Briefings, well, we started off as you say, but now, unless it is totally new (like IF the other day) its laid back "Well, I think we'll do some nav today" or " I really want you to practise Steep turns this time" or "we'd better spend some more time in the cct don't you think?" or even "what would you like to do today?" Yep, its a two way thing but very much as equals, we do not have the instructor/student relationship any more, we fly as friends and I think that is great and much better for a relaxed learning environment.
Just my experience and I guess I'm lucky to have a fab instructor, with other great friends in a fab club! Will be interested to hear others experiences.
Thankyou for your post, and a thought provoking one. Made me think about the ok probably rather bizarre way I chose my club to learn at and not at all as you advise, but that being so, I am extremely happy with both QFI and club.
I chose my club as it is where I work and literally a walk over the road and I can also fly in works time (health warning here, I do put in more hours than i am contracted to do...before anyone leaps on me about that!) It is also relatively cheap being a Service Club, no landing fees etc.
From your suggestions, apart from knowing I wanted to fly light SEP aircraft, I went into it blind - and wow, I just wouldn't want to be anywhere else! I did not get a PPL course plan or talk to any of the members except our CFI and the (now Ex) Ops member who allocated me an instructor out of about 7. I must say, that choice was inspired. We just clicked from Straight and level 1 and now54hrs and still learning later my instructor is also a good friend. We socialise, we chat/text on the phone, he will help me out with any ground issues I have (currently venturi and Bernoullis Theorum...why wasn't that guy shot??!!)
We did not review at the 5hr mark because we did not need to. I think that it would be obvious if you did not gel (like with my first driving instructor) and of course the older you are, the more likely you are to say something.
I think IMHO from a student point of view is fairly obvious and does not need to be stated, as the very fact that you are willing to commit to the time, long hard slog of learning and the financial commitment too, means that all those things are taken as read. They have never even been mentioned between my instructor and I as he knows I will take it all seriously and learn and he also knows I will shout if there is anything I don't understand.
Briefings, well, we started off as you say, but now, unless it is totally new (like IF the other day) its laid back "Well, I think we'll do some nav today" or " I really want you to practise Steep turns this time" or "we'd better spend some more time in the cct don't you think?" or even "what would you like to do today?" Yep, its a two way thing but very much as equals, we do not have the instructor/student relationship any more, we fly as friends and I think that is great and much better for a relaxed learning environment.
Just my experience and I guess I'm lucky to have a fab instructor, with other great friends in a fab club! Will be interested to hear others experiences.
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Good post BPF.
I think one issue is that most punters understandably don't have a clue as to what to expect, watch out for, etc. I certainly didn't when I started.
The more aggressive / driven professional/business people probably do expect good organisation and conduct but these things are rarely found on the PPL training scene where most training businesses are run on the back of a fag packet. Accordingly, many instructors have written scathing pieces in rags like FTN on how hard the "type A" students are to train.
I think there are parallels between the PPL training scene and the avionics / general maintenance scene. All these businesses are geared up to make money out of a customer base which is mostly skint (or is not skint but is tight, so the effect is the same) and thus are unable to provide a professional service to the customers who are willing to pay for it. You take your plane to an avionics shop for a major job and they quote 3 weeks but actually it is 6 weeks, starting from when the previous customer stops screaming at them. It isn't just training; it's the whole GA business that is struggling to share out a very thin pizza.
Then you get side issues like hour building instructors whose mind is on (1) the airline job adverts and (2) whether the gurl student that's just walked through the door might be a good shag
The other thing you touch on is student doing some preparation. Most don't, I never did, and now I am trying to get my son to do some before his lessons. It saves a lot of money.
I think one issue is that most punters understandably don't have a clue as to what to expect, watch out for, etc. I certainly didn't when I started.
The more aggressive / driven professional/business people probably do expect good organisation and conduct but these things are rarely found on the PPL training scene where most training businesses are run on the back of a fag packet. Accordingly, many instructors have written scathing pieces in rags like FTN on how hard the "type A" students are to train.
I think there are parallels between the PPL training scene and the avionics / general maintenance scene. All these businesses are geared up to make money out of a customer base which is mostly skint (or is not skint but is tight, so the effect is the same) and thus are unable to provide a professional service to the customers who are willing to pay for it. You take your plane to an avionics shop for a major job and they quote 3 weeks but actually it is 6 weeks, starting from when the previous customer stops screaming at them. It isn't just training; it's the whole GA business that is struggling to share out a very thin pizza.
Then you get side issues like hour building instructors whose mind is on (1) the airline job adverts and (2) whether the gurl student that's just walked through the door might be a good shag
The other thing you touch on is student doing some preparation. Most don't, I never did, and now I am trying to get my son to do some before his lessons. It saves a lot of money.
Last edited by peterh337; 14th May 2012 at 20:28.
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You describe the US system where you can go from zero to ATP without going anywhere near a "school", let alone a Part 141 school.
Concepts (or should I say "corrupting ideas") like that would have you locked up in this place called Europe
Concepts (or should I say "corrupting ideas") like that would have you locked up in this place called Europe
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BPF,
It looks like you take a more professional approach to training than 90+% of instructors do! The 5 hour review sounds like a great idea. I wish my school had done something like that, and also set out lesson plans for constant progression.
I agree with Peter in that when you are a student you generally have no idea if things are being done in the right way because you have absolutely no clue. Looking back on my own training I can see who the good instructors were now, but at the time it wasn't easy to tell the difference between them and the hour builders (who weren't automatically terrible).
I think students that are most keen to learn tend to be more generally accepting of varying teaching methods than those that think they already know-it-all and are constantly complaining (for no good reason). I wonder how many students would actually speak up and complain about an instructor they didn't think was much good instead of just going with it or worse still believing any problem in their learning was their fault?
It looks like you take a more professional approach to training than 90+% of instructors do! The 5 hour review sounds like a great idea. I wish my school had done something like that, and also set out lesson plans for constant progression.
I agree with Peter in that when you are a student you generally have no idea if things are being done in the right way because you have absolutely no clue. Looking back on my own training I can see who the good instructors were now, but at the time it wasn't easy to tell the difference between them and the hour builders (who weren't automatically terrible).
I think students that are most keen to learn tend to be more generally accepting of varying teaching methods than those that think they already know-it-all and are constantly complaining (for no good reason). I wonder how many students would actually speak up and complain about an instructor they didn't think was much good instead of just going with it or worse still believing any problem in their learning was their fault?
Last edited by The500man; 15th May 2012 at 19:51.
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I think one issue is that most punters understandably don't have a clue as to what to expect, watch out for, etc. I certainly didn't when I started.
^this is exactly the problem I'm having!
^this is exactly the problem I'm having!
My (limited) experience of instructors has been mostly positive. Certainly they tend to be several cuts above driving instructors.
As for school organisation... It seems to me that flying at our level can't be scheduled very tightly by its nature. Sometimes the weather's bad. Sometimes a lesson runs on because you have to go around or orbit for ATC. I missed a few lessons to let people do X-countrys, and when some good weather came up for mine somebody else got a call to see whether they could take the aircraft at a different time. Give and take... Take and give.
As for school organisation... It seems to me that flying at our level can't be scheduled very tightly by its nature. Sometimes the weather's bad. Sometimes a lesson runs on because you have to go around or orbit for ATC. I missed a few lessons to let people do X-countrys, and when some good weather came up for mine somebody else got a call to see whether they could take the aircraft at a different time. Give and take... Take and give.
Last edited by abgd; 14th May 2012 at 23:52.
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Peter has got it just about right. When it comes to instructors, most of them are just dreaming of the airline job and you are the means to that end however a fair few do a good professional job.
The ones you have to look out for are those who will drop you towards the end of the course as soon as a new student walks through the door, a lot of these guys have a tendency to not let you fly the aircraft very much and like showing you how good they are, so if they fly the aircraft for anything other than demonstrating technique or aircraft safety or to off load you when they are explaining something you are with the wrong guy.
The best people to fly with are current or retired professional pilots, they are not at the club for the hours or the money, they just want to continue flying and pass on their vast experience.
I was lucky to be of an age that the guys who taught me to fly had flown Hurricanes, Mosquitos, Lancaster's, Viscounts, Tridents, VC10's and yet were more than happy to try to help put right my appalling landings in the PA38.
The final thing is that the two worst taught subjects at PPL level are aerodynamics and aircraft technical, I don't know what to recommend about aerodynamics apart from getting a copy of Kermode's book on the subject. Most of the technical teaching is stuck in the era of the Tiger Moth and so totally outdated and the only way around this one it to talk to the guys who maintain the aircraft.
The ones you have to look out for are those who will drop you towards the end of the course as soon as a new student walks through the door, a lot of these guys have a tendency to not let you fly the aircraft very much and like showing you how good they are, so if they fly the aircraft for anything other than demonstrating technique or aircraft safety or to off load you when they are explaining something you are with the wrong guy.
The best people to fly with are current or retired professional pilots, they are not at the club for the hours or the money, they just want to continue flying and pass on their vast experience.
I was lucky to be of an age that the guys who taught me to fly had flown Hurricanes, Mosquitos, Lancaster's, Viscounts, Tridents, VC10's and yet were more than happy to try to help put right my appalling landings in the PA38.
The final thing is that the two worst taught subjects at PPL level are aerodynamics and aircraft technical, I don't know what to recommend about aerodynamics apart from getting a copy of Kermode's book on the subject. Most of the technical teaching is stuck in the era of the Tiger Moth and so totally outdated and the only way around this one it to talk to the guys who maintain the aircraft.
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A and C has hit the nail on the head. I made the mistake of thinking a young, keen low-hours instructor was the best for me when I started out with the PPL.
It was only later when he'd left for the airlines leaving me ill equipped to pass the test that I realised the big holes in my knowledge and training.
I was then the first student of another young instructor (who had several hundred hours already logged) and he turned out to be excellent. Between him and an older, grey-haired chap who'd been instructing for years I progressed to licence issue, sorting out problems with nav I didn't know were there and also adding a finesse to my flying.
It goes to show that experience counts, not necessarily the age of the instructor. And when you're forking out thousands of pounds for a service it pays to shop around, ask lots of questions and proactively choose the instructor you're comfortable with. Don't just go with whoever the school pushes on you.
Lunchmaster
It was only later when he'd left for the airlines leaving me ill equipped to pass the test that I realised the big holes in my knowledge and training.
I was then the first student of another young instructor (who had several hundred hours already logged) and he turned out to be excellent. Between him and an older, grey-haired chap who'd been instructing for years I progressed to licence issue, sorting out problems with nav I didn't know were there and also adding a finesse to my flying.
It goes to show that experience counts, not necessarily the age of the instructor. And when you're forking out thousands of pounds for a service it pays to shop around, ask lots of questions and proactively choose the instructor you're comfortable with. Don't just go with whoever the school pushes on you.
Lunchmaster
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That's an excellent post BPF, just one thing I add to your list and that is a completion standard for an exercise. A stated completion standard is in the preflight briefing so the student can make a decision on how he/she feels about the exercise just completed(and included in the exercise handout which includes the homework). Eg. have I gone away from this exercise and learnt the salient points and am I ready to progress to the next exercise. In this way BOTH instructor and student manage progress not just the instructor.
I think the 5 hour idea is great, we have a 12 hour requirement to see how solo(or not) is progressing.
I think the 5 hour idea is great, we have a 12 hour requirement to see how solo(or not) is progressing.
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I was lucky to be of an age that the guys who taught me to fly had flown Hurricanes, Mosquitos, Lancaster's, Viscounts, Tridents, VC10's and yet were more than happy to try to help put right my appalling landings in the PA38.
The final thing is that the two worst taught subjects at PPL level are aerodynamics and aircraft technical, I don't know what to recommend about aerodynamics apart from getting a copy of Kermode's book on the subject. Most of the technical teaching is stuck in the era of the Tiger Moth and so totally outdated and the only way around this one it to talk to the guys who maintain the aircraft.
The final thing is that the two worst taught subjects at PPL level are aerodynamics and aircraft technical, I don't know what to recommend about aerodynamics apart from getting a copy of Kermode's book on the subject. Most of the technical teaching is stuck in the era of the Tiger Moth and so totally outdated and the only way around this one it to talk to the guys who maintain the aircraft.
Ive seen brand new instructors teach far better than so called professionals that were doing the job for years and lost their enthusiasm a good while ago.#
Asking an instructor why he/she instructs can be very illuminating!
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The other thing you touch on is student doing some preparation. Most don't, I never did, and now I am trying to get my son to do some before his lessons. It saves a lot of money.
I think I'd probably start with:
(1) Do they seem passionate about teaching flying.
(2) Do they seem to be reasonably organised.
If you've nothing else to go on, and so far as you can tell their qualifications are correct, that's probably a good start.
G
(1) Do they seem passionate about teaching flying.
(2) Do they seem to be reasonably organised.
If you've nothing else to go on, and so far as you can tell their qualifications are correct, that's probably a good start.
G
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The best people to fly with are current or retired professional pilots
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This is an excellent thread. I can relate to this this very well actually. Upon deciding which flight school to go to etc, I decided on Bournemouth Intl (Solent school of flying) for many reasons, quality of instruction, prices, type of aircraft flown and busy class D airspace which gives the student great experience.
My instructor was a top bloke, really liked him and he was a highly skilled professional who has flown here, there and everywhere! He now flies in an airline job and am very jealous!!
I thought we got on OK but when we were in the air, I felt that my instructor kind of sucked the fun out of flying for me and I started to not enjoy flying.
So I thought of changing instructor's but he left anyway.
My instructor was a top bloke, really liked him and he was a highly skilled professional who has flown here, there and everywhere! He now flies in an airline job and am very jealous!!
I thought we got on OK but when we were in the air, I felt that my instructor kind of sucked the fun out of flying for me and I started to not enjoy flying.
So I thought of changing instructor's but he left anyway.
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Pull what
You should not be thinking of flying because you have a great career ahead of you as a reporter for The Daily Mail or as a politician, you fail to quote me fully and pick the parts of my post that prove the point that you want to make.
I delt with motivational issues in the paragraph that you tactically left out when quoting my post !
I delt with motivational issues in the paragraph that you tactically left out when quoting my post !
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I'm still following this thread with interest, and am incredibly grateful that I am not learning at a commercial school...because from what you guys say, it seems just that...like school...with homework, tests, directed learning. This would be a total turn off to me! This may be very well for a 17 year old who may need a kick or cannot articulate their thoughts but really?? For an adult?
I seem to manage with de-brief discussions with my QFI, I can articulate myself and have an adult conversatoin with him without the need of question papers! Personally as a 30 something student I would find papers asking me how I felt the trip went as an insult 
How patronising! Again, school leavers maybe, but taking the decision to become a pilot, be it as a hobby (like myself) or as a career is IMHO something which is ingrained, which you have a passion to do. A student pilot should not need to be supervised or directed. If they do then they have chosen the wrong career or hobby!
I don't doubt all the instructors here have good reason for these learning techniques, but I would be interested to hear other student pilots views on this "School kid type" learning. You have to trust your student to use their head and their passion for flying; just as they trust your judgement for when to send them solo etc
Again, my QFI KNOWS I will read up on everything in sight, the trip we've jsut flown, the exams work, he KNOWS that I will call/text him if I have a question regarding anything (and I frequently do). i will make a note of learning points from the sortie but that is something I have worked out for myself.
...Just a viewpoint from an "unsupervised" student pilot
A stated completion standard is in the preflight briefing so the student can make a decision on how he/she feels about the exercise just completedI
Thats because they are not supervised and directed to.
I don't doubt all the instructors here have good reason for these learning techniques, but I would be interested to hear other student pilots views on this "School kid type" learning. You have to trust your student to use their head and their passion for flying; just as they trust your judgement for when to send them solo etc
Again, my QFI KNOWS I will read up on everything in sight, the trip we've jsut flown, the exams work, he KNOWS that I will call/text him if I have a question regarding anything (and I frequently do). i will make a note of learning points from the sortie but that is something I have worked out for myself.
...Just a viewpoint from an "unsupervised" student pilot
Last edited by Grob Queen; 16th May 2012 at 11:42. Reason: Typos
An interesting perspective QG but I beg to differ on a number of points.
I've quite a lot of experience of teaching adults - to MSc and PhD level in universities, in a dojo, and more recently as a flying instructor. It is certainly a very different parish to teaching youngsters, because adults have opinions and commitments that are far more compelling than what most people under 18 have.
But, I do find in all of these environments that directed learning is important. I find in most cases I need to direct students to specific preparation exercises between lessons - a lot of which is reading. I send my Jiu Jitsu students off to practice kata in their back garden, PhD students to prepare their own notes on a subject they need to understand, or flying students to practice route planning. And all of them to read up on stuff they need to understand.
There are however two major differences between these adult learners than if I was teaching under 18s.
- Firstly, they have far more ownership of failure. So, I have to give them every opportunity to pass, but the ability to fail on their own conscience.
- Secondly I cannot simply tell them what to do. I will discuss with them what is appropriate, and agree a plan and philosophy of learning that we then jointly created, rather than what I simply dictated to them.
This second to a large extent may be because I am also generally teaching either a single, or a very small number, of individuals. A large class is a very different beast anyhow.
Progress tests have their place in all of these environments. I will put a student through a practice skill test before presenting them to an examiner, and give detailed feedback. I'll put a Jiu Jitsu student through a simulation of the nastier bits of a grading, and I most definitely put my PhD students through a mock viva before they go up for a real one. Again however, the existence of this is by agreement between I and my student, albeit with very strong direction from me, the teacher.
G
I've quite a lot of experience of teaching adults - to MSc and PhD level in universities, in a dojo, and more recently as a flying instructor. It is certainly a very different parish to teaching youngsters, because adults have opinions and commitments that are far more compelling than what most people under 18 have.
But, I do find in all of these environments that directed learning is important. I find in most cases I need to direct students to specific preparation exercises between lessons - a lot of which is reading. I send my Jiu Jitsu students off to practice kata in their back garden, PhD students to prepare their own notes on a subject they need to understand, or flying students to practice route planning. And all of them to read up on stuff they need to understand.
There are however two major differences between these adult learners than if I was teaching under 18s.
- Firstly, they have far more ownership of failure. So, I have to give them every opportunity to pass, but the ability to fail on their own conscience.
- Secondly I cannot simply tell them what to do. I will discuss with them what is appropriate, and agree a plan and philosophy of learning that we then jointly created, rather than what I simply dictated to them.
This second to a large extent may be because I am also generally teaching either a single, or a very small number, of individuals. A large class is a very different beast anyhow.
Progress tests have their place in all of these environments. I will put a student through a practice skill test before presenting them to an examiner, and give detailed feedback. I'll put a Jiu Jitsu student through a simulation of the nastier bits of a grading, and I most definitely put my PhD students through a mock viva before they go up for a real one. Again however, the existence of this is by agreement between I and my student, albeit with very strong direction from me, the teacher.
G