Flying in France on UK Pilots licence

[Mel Summit]

Can anyone advise whether we need a "certificate of profficiency in English" to fly in French airspace? The CAA said the UK licence has this on it, but do we need to contact the Frence Aviation Authority to get some kind of certificate?

[peterh337]

Not as far as I am aware.

You do need to be able to speak French if you fly to a "non international" airport there, however. But you can't do that direct from the UK anyway; you need one with Customs, and the ATC there must be capable of speaking English (during the relevant hours, anyway).

[Piper.Classique]

If it is icao or jar fcl conforming, no, you don't

[Jodelman]

you need one with Customs, and the ATC there must be capable of speaking English (during the relevant hours, anyway).

Amiens has customs (at the moment) but is French only.

[AN2 Driver]

Be careful.

I heard through some pilots here that the French CAA seems to severely fine and / or ground pilots without an ICAO Level 4 in FRENCH if they are caught on a "French only" airfield in France recently!

Knowing French is not enough, as well as it is not enough to know English. You need the paper to go with it.

Since I heard that, I won't even use a French greeting anymore on ATC as it is theoretically a violation.

So in France, unless you got a Level 4 exam in French you can show, keep away from "French only" Airfields.

[mad_jock]

be a bit canny if your in the final year of your license or its more tha 4 years old and just have the plain English cert on it.

Some french inspection officers say that because it doesn't have a level on it that it is a level 4 and if your over 4 years this is now a problem.

Best thing to do is somehow get a english cert with a level by hook or crook.

[soay]

Where can I find out what a Level 4 French exam entails?

[Piper.Classique]

Where can I find out what a Level 4 French exam entails?

DGAC website?
But seriously, why? There are very few french only airfields, and plenty where either there is a controller, so you can do it in english, or radio not compulsory and according to my local DGAC office this means if it doesn't say french only you can do it in english. It might not do a lot for flight safety, but it is apparently legal.

[pudoc]

As a PPL I've never really understood the customs airports things. From what I derived from my air law book was that to fly to another state i.e to France from the UK, once must leave via and arrive at a customs airport.

However, I flew to France (Le Touquet) with an instructor and none of this was necessary. And out all all the things I asked him, I forgot to ask why we didn't need to leave via customs airport. I don't know if Le Touquet is a custom airport, but all they asked for was a landing fee and aircraft reg.

Can somebody clarify?

[riverrock83]

I don't know where you flew from, but I understand that Le Touquet is a customs airport.
See Arrêté du 20 avril 1998 portant ouverture des aérodromes au trafic aérien international | Legifrance (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do;jsessionid=0E270011F79719D7F6002014583C6891.t pdjo09v_1?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000019430064&dateTexte=20090811) (I don't know how current these lists are).

The number of customs airports is reducing though, see previous thread:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/480705-reduction-french-airfields-customs.html

[PilotUnknown]

There are many 'Customs' airports in france with no actual day to day customs/passport checks. However it's the same once I get home, however from time to time, there could be spot checks.

Cherbourg is one example, customs airport, who only takes your landing fee. In the 10 or so times I've been there (in the last 3 months) I've never seen a customs officer.

[soay]

There are very few french only airfields ...
A significant number become FR only at certain times of the day (eg. extended lunchtime), so you have to time your arrival carefully if you want to do it in English.

[achimha]

But seriously, why? There are very few french only airfields, and plenty where either there is a controller, so you can do it in english, or radio not compulsory and according to my local DGAC office this means if it doesn't say french only you can do it in english.

I think the opposite is true. Most airfields are indicated as French only, operated by an aeroclub. Of course people there will most likely speak English and while I am able to do radio communication in French -- without the ICAO endorsement, I'm not within the law.

My plan is to get an ICAO level 4 endorsement from DGAC. I was told carrying the certificate is enough, it doesn't have to be entered into your PPL. The German CAA at least does not enter French language qualification into any license because they would have to first officially recognize test centers.

[Whopity]

Where can I find out what a Level 4 French exam entails?If you have a UK FRTOL then you were automatically granted Level 4 by the CAA several years ago, they issued all pilots with a new licence. You must have revalidated your licence since then, and the Examiner would have signed you up for level 6 if you are Fluent or a native English speaker. Certainly the Examiner should have made you aware if this was not on your licenceCan anyone advise whether we need a "certificate of profficiency in English" to fly in French airspace?If you intend to use the radio in any Country other than that of licence issue, this has been an ICAO requirement for the last 4 years!

[thing]

My first France trip is on the books for me this year, I fancy Le Touquet as it's close and it's where everyone seems to go. (Don't tell me that there's a far better airfield in the Dengue Valley only another hour further into France, just crossing the channel is going to be an adventure). I'm a little confused about all this language exam stuff, I have a JAR-PPL and did my FRTOL last year. Do I need some kind of language certificate as well?

[Piper.Classique]

I think the opposite is true. Most airfields are indicated as French only, operated by an aeroclub

Well, no. Most airfields are on 123.5 it is true. And operated by an aeroclub. I fly from one of them. But, unless radio is compulsory, there is no requirement to have any sort of radio. And this means, according to some sort of uniquely french logic, that you can speak english on the radio that you don't have to install.
Of course, if you are required to have a radio, then you must use it. In french, if that is what it says on the VAC. I have the paper. On my licence. When I swapped my UK JAR FCL for the French version I got it for being able to whinge in French. Level six.




I didn't invent these rules or this logic. Don't blame me.


Whopity, we know that the R/T licence on a UK PPL lets you use english. The poster wanted to know about using French.....


Soay, it is never advisable to arrive at lunchtime. Arrive before, eat, then leave after. Food is more important than flying, or flight planning, or seeing the customs man who won't be there anyway.

Cherbourg is a fine example of this. Arrive at lunchtime and the lady in the café takes your landing fee.

Thing, it is fine to go to Le Touquet and speak english.

[sicobra]

After quite a few years flying in the UK I am now playing my first trip to France in my Jodel, has anyone any links to a good resource that covers "all you need to know" for this? I know I can ask lots of folks who have done it before but I would prefer to be able to read all about it in my own time and only ask questions of those with the knowledge once I have some, thanks in advance.:ok

[Whopity]

Do I need some kind of language certificate as well?It should be written in your licence Page 3 Section XIII

[mad_jock]

Which is missing the all important language level so nobody knows how long its valid for.

[frac]

Which is missing the all important language level so nobody knows how long its valid for.

As far as I know, it is not an ICAO requirement to indicate the LP Level on the licence.

XIII) Remarks, i.e. special endorsements relating to limitations and endorsements for privileges, including from 5 March 2008 an endorsement of language proficiency, and other information required in pursuance to Article 39 of the Chicago Convention;

If I look at my Canadian Licence, it only shows LP: EN/FR
If I look at my FAA Certificate, it only indicates English Proficient
If I look at my UK Licence, it only indicates Language Proficiency: English
If I look at my friends french licence, it is the same (no level, no expiration date).


The licence is ICAO compliant without the LP level and without and expiration date on the LPR.

Regards
Frac

[mad_jock]

Its recommend under ICAO and is also a requirement for EASA licenses thank goodness. And your argument is whats rolled out by the CAA.

Doesn't change the fact that it's got the potential to get you pulled on a ramp check. The solution is to tell the inspecting officer that they are wrong.
There is a thread running in rotary about the Irish CAA giving heaps of hassle about it as well and requiring pilots to carry a cert.

What other time limited rating/qualifcation is on your license without an expiry date?

Its is as if someone has thought, right we won't put the date on that baby it only says recommend in ICAO so if we don't bother we can potentially screw with the lives of all international G reg drivers. Make a bit of money with the license verifications as well.

It wouldn't be so bad if there was actually a decent reason not to put it on.

[frac]

Doesn't change the fact that it's got the potential to get you pulled on a ramp check. The solution is to tell the inspecting officer that they are wrong.


I understand the issue, however, the lack of expiration date on the LPR is fairly common across ICAO Countries.

There is even EASA guidance on Ramp Checks regarding this

http://www.abacom.com/~mom/SAFA.jpg


Its is as if someone has thought, right we won't put the date on that baby it only says recommend in ICAO.


Maybe they didn't receive the memo ;), as far as I know, there is no such recommendation in ICAO Annex I but I might be wrong. I am aware that it is an EASA requirement for PART FCL licenses.

Here is the Canadian Statement regarding Language Proficiency

LICENCE ANNOTATIONS

(1) Canadian flight crew licences bear one of three annotations:
(a) Language Proficiency – English;
(b) Language Proficiency – French; or
(c) Language Proficiency – English/French.

(2) Canadian air traffic controller licences bear one of two annotations:
(a) Language Proficiency – English; or
(b) Language Proficiency – English/French.
(3) Canadian licences do not list the holder’s language proficiency level. Applicants who demonstrate proficiency at the “Below Operational” level cannot be issued a licence. The “Language Proficiency” annotation on a Canadian licence indicates that the holder has demonstrated linguistic ability at or above the Operational level.

... if we don't bother we can potentially screw with the lives of all international G reg drivers.


I don't think that it was the intent, at least Canada, USA and France went the same route (No mention of LP Level or expiration date if you hold the expert level).

Make a bit of money with the license verifications as well.


If you are not aware, you can obtain a CAA statement for free by emailing [email protected]. That is right, at no cost from the CAA, this is a reason to celebrate nest-ce pas?


It wouldn't be so bad if there was actually a decent reason not to put it on.


Don't worry, you will be able to get it fixed for a fee in July according to paragraph 3.2 of the current CAA Scheme of Charges - PLD (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=175&pagetype=90&pageid=9474)

Safe flights ;)
Frac

[mad_jock]

The other ICAO licenses I hold have it on it. So I won't be paying before its due.

Most of the rest of europe does have them as well.

As a matter of interest what was the date of publication of that Guidance material?

One of the few good things to come out of EASA is getting that put on.

Its not the flights being safe I am worried about its the completely anal stupid admin bollocks which we have to put up with.

Again there was absoultely no good reason not to put it on. The is nothing else on our licenses that is time limited which doesn't have a valid until date on it.

[frac]

As a matter of interest what was the date of publication of that Guidance material?

July 22nd 2009,

DECISION N° 2009/001/S OF THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE EUROPEAN AVIATION SAFETY AGENCY OF 22 JULY 2009 ON THE GUIDANCE MATERIAL FOR SAFA RAMP INSPECTIONS (http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/docs/agency-decisions/2009/2009-001-S/ED%20Decision%202009-001-S.pdf)

SAFA Ramp Inspections Guidance material Version 1.0 (http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/docs/agency-decisions/2009/2009-001-S/SAFA%20Ramp%20Inspection%20procedure%20v1.0.pdf) (Annex of ED 2009/001/S).

Its not the flights being safe I am worried about its the completely anal stupid admin bollocks which we have to put up with.


Unfortunately, I have to agree :ok: . Same thing in France, I had to obtain a French Language Proficiency certificate from the DGAC in order to be allowed to speak French on the radio while using the privileges of my UK Licence since the UK licence doesn't have a French Language Proficiency Endorsement.

The is nothing else on our licenses that is time limited which doesn't have a valid until date on it.

Roger, I am in a different situation, none of my Language Proficiency Endorsements are time limited.

Regards,
Frac

[mad_jock]

Despite being a porridge wog my English ELP isn't limited either :p

[Lone_Ranger]

"certificate of profficiency in English" ...."Frence Aviation Authority"

Oh dear............but don't worry, I expect that's A-Star quality at A-Level these days :D

[jxk]

Oh dear, when I first starting flying to France from Southampton in the mid 70's, it was all so much simpler, either that we were ignorant; nip over to Cherbourg, 50 minutes, get your drawback and duty frees, the trip nearly paid for itself. I can't remember there being any restriction on language at any of the airfields we flew to and there was nearly always someone who spoke the 'international language of the air' ie English. Cherbourg in those days was completely manned by English speakers and there was a met man ready to brief you in English on the return weather. Very often you wouldn't see a Douane or Gendarme anywhere - probably at lunch or down the boozer.
The good days ugh?

[bookworm]

I heard through some pilots here that the French CAA seems to severely fine and / or ground pilots without an ICAO Level 4 in FRENCH if they are caught on a "French only" airfield in France recently!

Knowing French is not enough, as well as it is not enough to know English. You need the paper to go with it.

Where could I find the regulation corresponding to this?

[BillieBob]

Bookworm - Try here (http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/arr290399FCL1tome2.pdf) - scroll down to FCL 1.028.

[bookworm]

Merci beaucoup.

Someone's in for a shock when they read Part-FCL.055(a). ;)

[peterh337]

What is in it?

[frac]

What is in it?

Basically, it is the PART-FCL version of JAR-FCL 1.010(a)[4] and it is now "category agnostic".

Under JAR-FCL 1.010(a)

JAR-FCL 1.010(a) (continued)
[(4) From 5 March 2008, applicants for a licence and licence holders who are required to use the radio telephone shall demonstrate the ability to speak and understand the language used for radiotelephony communications in accordance with Appendix 1 to JR-FCL 1.010. The language proficiency required must be at least Operational Level (level 4) of the ICAO Language Proficiency Rating (see Appendix 2 to JAR-FCL 1.010 and AMC No. 1 to JAR- FCL 1.010).

Under PART-FCL

FCL.055 Language proficiency
(a) General. Aeroplane, helicopter, powered-lift and airship pilots required to use the radio telephone shall not exercise the privileges of their licences and ratings unless they have a language proficiency endorsement on their licence in either English or the language used for radio communications involved in the flight. The endorsement shall indicate the language, the proficiency level and the validity date.

Basically, it adds the requirement for a validity date "For Life" and the Proficiency Level (Level 6).

Regards,

Frac

[peterh337]

This will force the removal of at least 50% of ATCOs around Europe.

[BillieBob]

How long have ATCOs been subject to pilot licensing legislation?

[mad_jock]

When does it kick in?

[custardpsc]

To answer the OP - I think the original question is related to not being able to fly internationally without the English Proficient endorsement. Whilst I can't point at the jar regs, this certainly was true in respect of FAA certificates / FARs and caused a flurry of people operating outside of USA having to get new 'issued on the basis of' licences reissued with the endorsement. I can only imagine the intention is to make sure pilots leaving their own non-english speaking countries can speak english well enough for international atc.

A french level 4 endorsement required for an airfield promulgated as francophone only - I'd really like to know if that is correct - and having to get a level 4 french endorsement to speak french/use a UK national ppl in france - FRAC - don't suppose you could point us to the legislation for that ? I'd be interested to know the details

[frac]

To answer the OP - I think the original question is related to not being able to fly internationally without the English Proficient endorsement.

Since March 5 2008 a Language Proficiency Endorsement is required on a pilot licence for it to be ICAO compliant.

Annex 1

1.2.9 Language proficiency
1.2.9.1 Aeroplane, airship, helicopter and powered-lift pilots and those flight navigators who are required to use the radio telephone aboard an aircraft shall demonstrate the ability to speak and understand the language used for radiotelephony communications.


It could be "Swahili Proficient" if the language used for radiotelephony communications is Swahili. France is required to provide a ground station service in English at all designated international airports.

Annex 10

5.2.1.2.2 The English language shall be available, on request from any aircraft station, at all stations on the ground serving designated airports and routes used by international air services.

A french level 4 endorsement required for an airfield promulgated as francophone only - I'd really like to know if that is correct - and having to get a level 4 french endorsement to speak french


According to ICAO Annex 1, this is correct and it was enforced only in France for CPL/ATPL Pilots because a "licence validation" was required in order to use a JAR CPL in France on a French registered aircraft. Since the entry into force of European Regulation 1178/2011 last month, the formal validation process is no longer required. This was confirmed in a DGAC Note sur la reconnaissance des licenses (http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/note_reconnaissance_des_licences_JAR_en_ligne.pdf).


use a UK national ppl in france

For UK N-PPL in France, please refer to AIC A 13/2010 (https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/dossier%5Caicfrancea%5CAIC_A_2010_13_EN.pdf).


- FRAC - don't suppose you could point us to the legislation for that ? I'd be interested to know the details

As far as I understand, if you hold an ICAO PPL according to ICAO annex 1 a French LPR would be required in order to speak French on the radio. However,
l'Arrêté du 24 avril 2007 relatif aux compétences linguistiques du personnel navigant technique de l'aéronautique civile (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jopdf/common/jo_pdf.jsp?numJO=0&dateJO=20070516&numTexte=138&pageDebut=09278&pageFin=09283) states that the French LPR is Only Required for Commercial/ATPL Pilots. It goes on to say that compliance is not mandatory for private pilots.

b) Epreuves de compétence linguistique :
Quand les privilèges de la licence sont exercés dans les espaces aériens où l'usage de la langue française est requis, le titulaire d'une licence doit avoir apporté la preuve d'un niveau 4 ou plus en cette langue. Lorsque cette preuve ne résulte pas du dossier du navigant, le titulaire de la licence doit avoir satisfait à une épreuve complémentaire.

I am not aware of any fines applicable in France due to the lack of French LP on an ICAO licence. However, if you want, you can obtain a French Language Proficiency from the DGAC.

Bons vols,

Frac

[frac]

So, any clue how to obtain the certificate from DGAC? I imagine just writing a letter (in French) wouldn't be enough (there is a bit in the PDF about testing for French licences, for professional pilots, but nothing for English pilots with private licences. Ho hum!)


If you are fluent in French, I suggest that you contact

madra<dot>pellicer<at>aviation-civile.gouv.fr

The last FCL 1.028 (En Français) test was a couple weeks ago in Orly - Centre d'examen.

You will obtain something like that on French DGAC letterhead

http://www.abacom.com/~mom/LPR.png

Regards,

Marc-Olivier

[bookworm]

Basically, it is the PART-FCL version of JAR-FCL 1.010(a)[4] and it is now "category agnostic".

But how about the three words "either English or"?

[custardpsc]

Thanks frac, very helpful - I'll go and look at those references...

[peterh337]

What happened to the conversational english for ATC?

[soaringhigh650]

One moment. I call you back. ;)