IFR from un towered airport

[nick14]

Evening all,

We are planning a tour of Scotland with an initial trip from an un-towered airport to Dundee. We plan to fly IFR along low level airways.

To activate the flight plan and obtain clearances i assume we would need to talk to london control and notify them of our iminent departure? There is an international airport within a few miles, would they be able to facilitate our departure and hand off to London or would we be best to get straight onto London control to get the airways clearance?

Anyone have any tips on places to visit up north?

Thanks

[chevvron]

If you're departing from an airfield in the London FIR, best to phone London Control before you depart to get transponder code and contact frequency. Your flight plan will be activated automatically when the London Control computer detects your transponder code and starts tracking it. Your nearby 'international' airport may be able to help if they have radar; they're unlikely to have a copy of your flight plan but if you explain the situation, they could identify you, validate your transponder code and verify height readout and maybe give you traffic service prior to your contacting London for clearance into controlled airspace, because (as you should know) simply issuing a transponder code does not constitute clearance to enter, and if they handle lots of IFR flights, they will have a 'system' for obtaining clearances.
You could of course, simply call London FIR after departure but they do not have radar and will only be able to get you contact frequency and transponder code, thus until you are actually in contact with London Control and entering controlled airspace, you will only get basic service.
I've handled many flights like yours when I used to operate Farnborough LARS; it's quite straightforward if you follow the guidelines above.

[peterh337]

I have never seen a phone number published for London Control and have been told it is confidential.

Here in the south, after an untowered departure, I have always called up London Info (124.6 in the south) and they then obtain a provisional clearance from London Control. Being non-ATC they cannot give you a "clearance" so it is along the lines of squawk XXXX, remain OCAS, and contact London Control on 123.45".

This trivial little trip (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/egnt/index.html) is an example of how it works.

It would be great if a pilot could telephone London Control before departing, since London Info often take 20+ mins to come up with the handover to London Control - by which time one is deep under the LTMA (if going north) and there is no chance of getting a climb anywhere, or has left UK airspace if going south :)

[mad_jock]

it should be in the AIP peter

The scottish certainly is.

And if you can't be bothered finding it scottish info will give it to you.

[Contacttower]

There certainly is a number in the AIP for London Area Control, whether it is the right number to actually get through to someone who can give a provisional clearance I have no idea though... probably worth finding out though because going through London Info can be a bit of a pain sometimes.

No idea if they are any use but the numbers (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-FDC720A8ABAA222620409B00B4E00CC2/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/GEN/EG_GEN_3_3_en_2011-11-17.pdf) (scroll down a bit) are there...

[Contacttower]

To activate the flight plan and obtain clearances i assume we would need to talk to london control and notify them of our iminent departure? There is an international airport within a few miles, would they be able to facilitate our departure and hand off to London or would we be best to get straight onto London control to get the airways clearance?

Do whatever you usually do presumably, where exactly are you departing from?

Anyone have any tips on places to visit up north?

How long have you got....? You could go to Inverness, Stornoway, Islay, Wick, so many places to choose...

[Dan the weegie]

Places to visit will be easier if you told us what you were flying :). However, the kind of airport any GA pilot could get in to and worth visiting.

Kirkwall, Islay, Oban, Perth, Dornoch. all about an hour or so from Dundee (except Perth which is next door) depending on what you're flying.

That should be enough to get you started :)

[silverknapper]

If you are in the vicinity I've always found Farnborough very helpful over the phone on trips from the likes of Dunsfold and Fairoaks.

[fisbangwollop]

How far from CAS will your be on departure? I would suggest contacting London Information ASAP after departure and request a joining clearance. They will then phone the appropriatte sector, obtain the clearance and squawk and pass said clearance to you and the appropriatte frequency to contact London Control. Just make sure your IFR flight plan is filed.

Look forward to speaking to you once up into God's country. :cool:

[stopbar]

London Area Control Centre(LACC) are unlikely to issue a clearance on the phone prior to departure as this will block a level which may be needed in what is very busy airspace for what is in effect an unknown amount of time, that is most unlikely to occur. Likewise the LACC sector ATCO will not want an unknown aircraft popping up on frequency, that will as popular as a fart in a space suit! The most likely scenario remains contact London FIR and go from there as once airbourne there is a tactictal situation which can be resolved normally in a straightforward manner, therfore a ROCAS remains the most likely option until LACC have you identified. As an ATCO at a regional airport we will issue and relay clearances from LACC for those aircraft operating from our airfield as we have the flight plan avaiable but refer those requests from transits, where we have no such information to London FIR. I supect this is pretty much SOP for most ATC units. :O:O

[soaringhigh650]

but they do not have radar

They do have a radar-derived Traffic Monitor to help them with their work.
So they can definitely see you under certain circumstances.

They also sit in the same room as the Center controllers.

[peterh337]

One would not expect to get a clearance to enter CAS over the phone.

One would expect to be able to get the squawk and the contact frequency though - that is what one gets from one's local tower, or from London Info.

The whole business of departing for an IFR flight from a VFR-only airport carries certain problems, because you have to remain VFR/OCAS etc until you establish contact. A number of people have been killed during that phase of the flight. A couple of years ago, in Greece, I flew at low level for about 2hrs before I got through to anybody and by that time we were landing :) In the UK version, a delay of 20-30 mins waiting for London Info could keep you in icing conditions, collecting a nice amount of ice. As a result, there is a strategy involved which might be to depart in a certain direction (not necessarily at all the direction of the intended flight) while waiting for the clearance to enter CAS to come through.

[soaringhigh650]

In the UK version, a delay of 20-30 mins waiting for London Info could keep you in icing conditions, collecting a nice amount of ice

This sounds really worrying.

Have you raised this issue with the Safety Board or whatever you guys have over there?

[nick14]

We are departing from Tatenhill so in close proximity to east mids and the controlled airspace around TNT, where we plan to route into the airway. Would we be able to liaise with EMA and get a provisional service and squawk? Should we address the FP to EMA via the addressing section on Afpex?I am familiar with the airspace operating on commercial flights however, operating a SPA is very different especially departing with no clearance/atc.

The aircraft is a nicely equipped pa24-250 so very capable and we have 5 days to visit the north, wx dependant.

Thanks for your help.

[Hodja]

Likewise the LACC sector ATCO will not want an unknown aircraft popping up on frequency
Interesting - so you can't just report in with Control directly after take-off and get your clearance (even though they've got your flight plan), you actually have to get your squawk code first from a non-control unit like London Info before Control will entertain your request? You'd think a brief position report would enable Control to identify your VFR squawk on their screen.

Also I wonder if London Control has a "clearance void time" concept supporting a clearance over the phone - or maybe this is a US-only thing...

[peterh337]

Interesting - so you can't just report in with Control directly after take-off and get your clearance (even though they've got your flight plan), you actually have to get your squawk code first from a non-control unit like London Info before Control will entertain your request?

AFAIK, yes.

Or from some airport tower.

If one can telephone London Control and pick up a squawk and then call them up directly following a "farm strip" departure, that is super news but despite doing a fair bit of "airways" flight it would be the first time I have heard of it. If it works, when was it introduced?

Also I wonder if London Control has a "clearance void time" concept supporting a clearance over the phone - or maybe this is a US-only thing...

It is a US only thing, AFAIK.

[mad_jock]

Phone up east mids and tell them what you would like to do.


To be honest you might as well bang up the east coast up to St Abbs and not bother with airways. They will tend to point you towards foyle what ever you want or have planned if your heading north of the lowlands.

So St abbs then angus outside will do the trick for pretty much everything. As soon as your north of Manchester you will get plenty of LARS services and Newcastle are pretty good with crossing clearances once your north of there you can skirt round EDI not that they don't usually give a crossing clearance or go to Leuchars.

Going airways you are just going to be shoved west then have to come back east again.

[peterh337]

you might as well bang up the east coast

That's OK in reasonably good wx, but if you have lots of low cloud, and an IR, then going "Eurocontrol IFR" is preferable.

As an example, last week I went up to Coventry from the s. coast. Low level wx was very mucky and it would have been IMC all the way, in quite low temps. If you file full IFR, FL100, you are in sunshine all the way.

[nick14]

Thats the plan, avoid the crud low down.

I will give EMA a call and see what they would prefer we do.

Thanks all!

[mad_jock]

You not low level though for most of it once you get past Man.

They will always try and keep traffic away from the tay sector so it doesn't matter what you have put on your flight plan if you not going to dundee or ABZ you will get wanged over onto the west coast up the old W3D.

In theory you should be able to go up the N601 POL margo grice but you will get shoved off to foyle like it or not.

I presume the OP wants N57 then N601 airways?

It depends where he is going to be honest.

Actually looking at the chart even a route through foyle would be less out of the way than going up the east coast from EMA so disregard.

[Flaymy]

The advice I got was that it is generally far quicker to contact the nearest LARS unit rather than London Info for clearance into controlled airspace.

I had annoyed Farnborough by flying (legally and safely I hasten to add, albeit with unverified 'C' and less than considerate airmanship) under their ILS approach. I was already talking to London Info for clearance into controlled airspace and Heathrow SVFR to cross their zone as a last-minute route adjustment forced on me, so had not called Farnborough as I only had two boxes! London took a lot longer than I expected to get my clearance. I should have called Farnborough instead of London :=

By the way don't confuse flight in controlled airspace with IFR flight. You can perfectly happily fly IFR in class G airspace without clearance or even talking to ATC. You probably should follow IFR while seeking your clearance to enter controlled airspace.

[dont overfil]

Why does it have to be low down going up the east as Mad Jock suggests?
You can get a control service in class D and LARS in class G up to FL95 and London Mil above.

I would go GAM, NATEB EGPN.

D.O.

[fisbangwollop]

What will your max cruise level be and what is your first destination in Scotland? why not use LARS as MJ says route up the east coast...Radar service from Teeside,Newcastle,Scottish,Leuchars. Or you could go more direct using Warton Radar and a hand off to Scottish from them.

[Barcli]

It does surprise me that you have the IR qualification Nick14 but no idea how to put it into practice ? :oh:

[peterh337]

It suprises you?

If it is a JAA IR, I don't think so ;)

[soaringhigh650]

peterh337 - I see you have avoided answering my earlier question. :)

[peterh337]

Not intentionally :)

The problem with asking questions on a topic which is obviously well sorted in the USA but which will obviously never be sorted in the UK because of 200 separate reasons is that it doesn't get you anywhere :)

I know one issue which had been repeatedly raised with UK ATC management was the dumping of returning IFR flights 100-200nm before the destination airport, by telling them to descend OCAS (say 2400ft) and then they had to fly the last bit at low level, which is obviously hazardous. After some years, that situation improved somewhat, or considerably, depending on the circumstances.

The problem with the VFR-departure scenario is that it occurs with every Z-plan departure. The slick American solution (clearance void etc) is never going to happen over here.

[mad_jock]

He does know how to do it.

He just hasn't got the experence on how to bastardise the system into working for him if he isn't a commercial going out of a towered airport. Have a look at his post histroy he does airways everyday at work.

Its honestly not his fault. The airways system is not setup for light aircraft joining from outside.

From experence it can be not to pretty if your on a commercial flight joining from a regional outside even when the flight occurs everyday at the same time. And its not the fault of the ATCO thats trying to get you in either. Its just the way the system is setup.

And looking at the prefered routes euro control might want to send him up to the IOM then onto P600 at FL100. For Dundee up to St Abbs is far the best option.

And peter if your class G you can do what you want how ever much the controller screams remain VFR at you. If its not safe climb to MSA. If they give you a decent thats going to be dangerous refuse it.

[peterh337]

And looking at the prefered routes euro control might want to send him up to the IOM then onto P600 at FL100I don't find that.

EGBM PEDIG M605 POL N601 TLA DCT EDN EGPN

235nm 6% over GC. FL100.

The return route is longer
GRICE P600 FENIK DCT NGY N615 DCS/N0150F150 N615 BARTN
with a 17% overhead (if filed literally; I would try to file the reverse of the 1st one but using all-DCTs because ATC don't operate the unidirectional airways anyway).

Neither goes anywhere near the IOM.

All done in seconds using FPP (http://flightplanpro.eu/Home.html).

And peter if your class G you can do what you want how ever much the controller screams remain VFR at you. If its not safe climb to MSA. If they give you a decent thats going to be dangerous refuse it. Obviously one would refuse a descent into hazardous wx.

It is the beginning of the flight where one can get the "fun" :) ATC are under no obligation to clear you into CAS, ever.

[Contacttower]

What FL are you planning on going at?

And looking at the prefered routes euro control might want to send him up to the IOM then onto P600 at FL100. For Dundee up to St Abbs is far the best option.

Where on earth did you get that from? Going airways is the most direct and best way to do this route.

Using Eurofpl.eu and the Standard Route Document this is what I would do...

For FL100 I would go DCT TNT N57 POL DCT TLA DCT EDN DCT.

What this means is that you will leave controlled airspace a bit north of POL and come back in south of TLA. Contact London info once you leave controlled airspace north of POL and they will get a provisional onward clearance for Scottish, Scottish will then deal with you until the descent into Dundee...

Looking at Tatenhill on the map I'd contact East Midlands after departure, you are going to be climbing through their airspace anyway, if your A/G guy is switched on he should be able to phone them for you while you are waiting on the ground and get a squawk and contact frequency for you to call once you are airborne.

Edit to add: Just noticed Peter covered most of that while I was typing...;)

[dont overfil]

Some of our customers seem to get the IOM route heading south from egpt.

The guys at Tay sector seem to be confused by it as well and recommend negotiating a more direct route once airborne.

D.O.

[mad_jock]

Apart from anything else FL 100 over POL Talla is going to be lumpy as :mad:

If its a westerly wind all the moisture will have come out of the air by the time it gets to the east coast.

[MIKECR]

The 2 routes Peter has come up with are spot on. I fly them regularly. If going to EGPN then expect to route POL TLA DCT DND once clear of Margo, staying high over EDI til clear of the TMA, then dirty dive into EGPN. If heading south, then join at Grice or PTH to Fenik(P600) then DCS, Lakey, MCT.

[nick14]

I feared I would get shot down at some point.

The problem is I did my IR at a controlled airport and hardly ever left CAS, then I got a job and fly in Class A all day. At no point is there any training on the transition between the two or leaving an un-controlled airport and getting a clearance into the airways.

We do not have O2 so going above F100 is not an option for this trip. Having looked at the airways chart the most direct route for us seems to be DCT TNT N57 POL N601 GRICE DCT. The only level I can see that will work is F100 with a descent when we turn north east.

All your advice is greatly appreciated and I will trial a few different techniques on my trip up north.

[peterh337]

The problem, Nick, is that airways charts are about as useful as the 4x4 touring map of Outer Mongolia would be in Brighton :)

Airways charts is what one learns in the JAA IR (what I learnt at one esteemed FTO) but those methods have not worked for many more years than I have been flying.

The problem is the Eurocontrol route validation system. They chuck the airway system into the database, chuck in thousands of routing restrictions (which are mostly produced by people with nothing better to do, and radar ATC doesn't operate most of them on the day anyway), chuck in a load of other rules, and your proposed route has to pass all that. The end result was a good income for the likes of Jepp flight support services and it is only recently that software tools have made it workable; FPP is the one which currently works. I suggest you download it and have a play. It is free. If you want a website version which does various other stuff then Rocketroute is the one. I personally use FPP and then EuroFPL to file the flight plan. That is how things are done these days - you use a program to develop the route, if you don't like it you can hack it around a bit (with certain caveats if you do that) and then you file it, and you will fly something resembling it not too badly. I've got some notes from a few years ago here (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/ifr-flying/index.html).

Without oxygen, you need to pick reasonable wx, non-frontal unless you are brave :) Totally doable, just with a bit reduced despatch rate. You don't want to end up in IMC below 0C, at your non-oxygen ceiling.

[Contacttower]

Apart from anything else FL 100 over POL Talla is going to be lumpy as

Not particularly in my experience, done that route many times, if there's ice up there or whatever then obviously no one's going to be transiting at FL100 anyway, on a day when from the icing point of view FL100 is possible on that route it is usually just as smooth as any other.

[Contacttower]

I personally use FPP and then EuroFPL to file the flight plan.

Why not just use EuroFPL to do the route as well? It won't let you file a route that isn't valid...

Only thing about EuroFPL I find annoying is that sometimes when you ask it to generate a route between two more obscure airports it either won't come up with anything or give you a route that while is valid is not the most efficient possible. Is rocketroute or FPP better?

[peterh337]

FPP (and Rocketroute which is the same software) can generate optimised routes, which use multiple levels and occassional DCTs. Sometimes the algorithm fails totally however and then the app reverts to the Eurocontrol Route Suggest feature (which also fails a lot of the time...or produces a silly route with a huge overhead).

EuroFPL does not generate routes by itself; it has the Eurocontrol Route Suggest Feature only. I use it for flight plan filing only (for historical reasons) with Afpex as a backup.

Some routes (many actually, around Europe) cannot be done automatically and have to be hacked, e.g. EGKA-EGBE (FL100-FL195) is easy but the reverse does not compute at all. The solution is to file the reverse same as outbound, using DCTs ;)

Years ago, before these tools came along (or I used the ASA site mentioned in my last link), I would sometimes capitulate and email Eurocontrol, who would respond with a route full of DCT hacks :E Needless to say that doesn't work well at EOBT minus 1hr :)

[mm_flynn]

EuroFpl uses the CFMU route proposal facility and a list of all of the valid routes filed or validated on EuroFPL. Hence some airport pairs and levels are better represented than others.

Rocketroute and FlightPlanPro generate a route from first principles checking and avoiding the Eurocontrol restrictions. This often results in small enroute level changes to get over/under various restrictions to generate a better route. This is then compared to the CFMU route proposal (if available) and the better result is selected. FPP and Rocketroute typically come in about 5-10% shorter routes than CFMU. Sometimes you can do better by frigging around with the route manually to avoid specific trigger points or blocked points (eg traffic via MID forbidden - try a DCT to MID180001 - computer says yes now ... But when doing these hacks you are not following the rules and may well be a PITA to ATC and wind up flying a totally different (and longer) route than you planned.

PS - noticed I overlapped with Peter

[Contacttower]

Interesting...:ok:

[soaringhigh650]

but which will obviously never be sorted in the UK because of 200 separate reasons ... The slick American solution (clearance void etc) is never going to happen over here

So are you saying that ATC don't give a danm about basic flight safety?
If so, that is a very bold claim to make.

[peterh337]

It is about money, not safety.

The budget comes first, and you work within that.

But surely you know that. Even the FAA, with its taxpayer funding, is not going to spend unlimited $$$ to push the last bit of safety.

In Europe, GA barely counts for anything, anyway. GA is tolerated here because of ICAO. If it was not for ICAO, GA would have been banned in most of Europe, shortly after WW2. Only countries with a long history of it, plus freedom, would have retained it (UK, Germany, France...).

One could have a theoretical debate about what reasonable expectations a pilot should have prior to getting airborne, regarding post-departure ATC co-operation. I suppose in the USA this is well defined, but in Europe it mostly isn't.

[mad_jock]

I did my IR out LBA and this time of year and depending on the wind direction it was sporty. The icing could be a bit of a bugger as well.

[nick14]

Hiya,

Jut thought I would give you an update for anyone wanting to know the outcome.

We contacted EMA on the way from our uncrontrolled field, they arranged the airways clearance and were cleared to enter controlled airspace with no issue. We dropped out around ribel and were passed to London info who then sorted out our onwards clearance to enter just north of margo. The rest was easy.

Thanks for all the help chaps!

[Contacttower]

Glad to hear you made it. So where are you going to visit in Scotland?

[cessnapete]

I regularly fly IFR trips from a strip near CPT. We call London Centre on the telephone 5 mins before start and get a transponder code and freq to call when airborne. Works fine and usually cleared into airways with no delay.

[peterh337]

Why do you have to phone up somebody, when you then have to call up (London Info, I assume) when airborne to get the stuff you really want?

[Cobalt]

No, london CONTROL.

You need to get the squawk and initial contact frequency from somewhere.

You can get it from London Info in the air.

You can call them in advance, too [with an estimated airborne time], if you know the number.

At some airfields (I remember Stapleford, also some places in Germany) the local radio station will do that for you, and you go straight to the control frequency they give you without going via London Info.

[peterh337]

I am still none the wiser about whether this top secret London CONTROL number is public or not.

I also don't see the benefit of making a call to any ATC unit if the result is no better than calling London Info after departure.

Obviously one isn't going to (in Europe) get a clearance to enter CAS with a phone call, but one should be able to make a phone call, give the EOBT, and get a London Control frequency and a squawk.

I have never seen any pilot do that. Only airports have the London Control phone #.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I also don't see the benefit of making a call to any ATC unit if the result is no better than calling London Info after departure.
I would imagine that the result is sometimes better than calling London Info after departure.

There's no time pressure waiting for them to answer the phone whilst you're on the ground. You might only have a few minutes in the air before you want to be in controlled airspace and that might not be long enough to get a word in on London Info.

[Flaymy]

London Info can take some time to come through with your clearance. Time in which you have your highest workload: keeping clear of controlled airspace, keeping terrain clearance if in IMC, keeping a look out for VFR traffic if VMC all the while tracking in the best direction for destination, without knowing where and when you are likely to be cleared into controlled airspace.

Flying IFR inside controlled airspace has the minimum workload, so is far safer. That is why I recommended contacting a LARS, as they can get clearance more quickly. Calling the area controllers before getting airborne would have similar benefit: I have done that in France, but not in the UK.

[dont overfil]

I expect the London Control phone number is not in the public domain so they do not get pestered with offers for double glazing.

The way it works in an AG environment is as follows. I call a "control" phone number to put a flight plan on request. The assistant who answers the phone immediately gives me a squawk to issue and says the controller will call back with a clearance. There is a less than one in ten chance I will get this call presumably due to workload or the constantly changing traffic situation.

The departing aircraft takes off with a squawk, a frequency to call and an instruction to remain clear of controlled airspace.

D.O.

[Flaymy]

Thanks for that dont overfil. Have been in receipt of clearances or squawk from A/G or AFISO but good to know why I don't often get clearance.

[Contacttower]

We call London Centre on the telephone 5 mins before start and get a transponder code and freq to call when airborne. Works fine and usually cleared into airways with no delay.

Well you clearly know the number....;)

[peterh337]

Yes.... that number which is supposedly in the AIP but which nobody has yet posted :)

[cessnapete]

Telephone call gives much quicker clearance into Airways than calling FIR when airborne. On a westerly routing to Ireland it frequently took until past Lyneham (now closed of course) to get IFR clearance while talking to FIR/Lyneham/Bristol on various boxes, single pilot ops.

02380401102 in the CPT area.

[nick14]

We managed to visit:

Islay, Oban, Stornaway and overflew a few places including Barra, Benbecular, Inverness, Aberdeen and of course Loch Ness.

A brilliant week with plenty of experience to add to my bucket!

Thanks for the help everyone.

[mary meagher]

nick14, glad to hear you had a splendid trip to those romantic islands, and hope you brought home appropriate samples of the local produce....

Can't resist recounting my trip long ago in my PA18, over La Manche, routing from Shoreham, overflying Lydd, got nervous about heading out over water, so as I was talking to London Control, asked them for 11,000 feet; I did have a transponder in those days.... No problem at all, they gave me my own private controller (couldn't hear him talking to anyone else, anyhow) and permission to fly in the controlled airspace VFR to Le Touque en route to Le Blanc. Those were the days! Most of my friends who fly cross channel seem terribly bold and willing to fly at low level.....

[chevvron]

..Which is why when I used to do Farnborough LARS East, I used to encourage people to stay on my frequency (although it was officially 'outside my area') until at least the FIR boundary, preferably until they had Le Touquet in sight. Radar coverage using the Pease Pottage radar (on a hill just south of Gatwick) was superb, and it meant if the worst did happen (happily it never did) I had a direct line to D & D so I would have been able to provide the best assistance possible in the circumstances.

[peterh337]

I made the mistake of cancelling IFR on the way to LTQ yesterday, only to get the "French method" whereby they clear you right base in English while at the same time clearing somebody else to be left base in French :ugh:

Twice this has happened now. I had to break off and do an orbit.

I did that to save about 20-30nm of vectoring by Lille, and the runway was just visible in the haze, but it probably wasn't a good idea....