IFR from un towered airport
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: My house
Posts: 1,339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IFR from un towered airport
Evening all,
We are planning a tour of Scotland with an initial trip from an un-towered airport to Dundee. We plan to fly IFR along low level airways.
To activate the flight plan and obtain clearances i assume we would need to talk to london control and notify them of our iminent departure? There is an international airport within a few miles, would they be able to facilitate our departure and hand off to London or would we be best to get straight onto London control to get the airways clearance?
Anyone have any tips on places to visit up north?
Thanks
We are planning a tour of Scotland with an initial trip from an un-towered airport to Dundee. We plan to fly IFR along low level airways.
To activate the flight plan and obtain clearances i assume we would need to talk to london control and notify them of our iminent departure? There is an international airport within a few miles, would they be able to facilitate our departure and hand off to London or would we be best to get straight onto London control to get the airways clearance?
Anyone have any tips on places to visit up north?
Thanks
If you're departing from an airfield in the London FIR, best to phone London Control before you depart to get transponder code and contact frequency. Your flight plan will be activated automatically when the London Control computer detects your transponder code and starts tracking it. Your nearby 'international' airport may be able to help if they have radar; they're unlikely to have a copy of your flight plan but if you explain the situation, they could identify you, validate your transponder code and verify height readout and maybe give you traffic service prior to your contacting London for clearance into controlled airspace, because (as you should know) simply issuing a transponder code does not constitute clearance to enter, and if they handle lots of IFR flights, they will have a 'system' for obtaining clearances.
You could of course, simply call London FIR after departure but they do not have radar and will only be able to get you contact frequency and transponder code, thus until you are actually in contact with London Control and entering controlled airspace, you will only get basic service.
I've handled many flights like yours when I used to operate Farnborough LARS; it's quite straightforward if you follow the guidelines above.
You could of course, simply call London FIR after departure but they do not have radar and will only be able to get you contact frequency and transponder code, thus until you are actually in contact with London Control and entering controlled airspace, you will only get basic service.
I've handled many flights like yours when I used to operate Farnborough LARS; it's quite straightforward if you follow the guidelines above.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have never seen a phone number published for London Control and have been told it is confidential.
Here in the south, after an untowered departure, I have always called up London Info (124.6 in the south) and they then obtain a provisional clearance from London Control. Being non-ATC they cannot give you a "clearance" so it is along the lines of squawk XXXX, remain OCAS, and contact London Control on 123.45".
This trivial little trip is an example of how it works.
It would be great if a pilot could telephone London Control before departing, since London Info often take 20+ mins to come up with the handover to London Control - by which time one is deep under the LTMA (if going north) and there is no chance of getting a climb anywhere, or has left UK airspace if going south
Here in the south, after an untowered departure, I have always called up London Info (124.6 in the south) and they then obtain a provisional clearance from London Control. Being non-ATC they cannot give you a "clearance" so it is along the lines of squawk XXXX, remain OCAS, and contact London Control on 123.45".
This trivial little trip is an example of how it works.
It would be great if a pilot could telephone London Control before departing, since London Info often take 20+ mins to come up with the handover to London Control - by which time one is deep under the LTMA (if going north) and there is no chance of getting a climb anywhere, or has left UK airspace if going south
Fly Conventional Gear
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There certainly is a number in the AIP for London Area Control, whether it is the right number to actually get through to someone who can give a provisional clearance I have no idea though... probably worth finding out though because going through London Info can be a bit of a pain sometimes.
No idea if they are any use but the numbers (scroll down a bit) are there...
No idea if they are any use but the numbers (scroll down a bit) are there...
Fly Conventional Gear
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To activate the flight plan and obtain clearances i assume we would need to talk to london control and notify them of our iminent departure? There is an international airport within a few miles, would they be able to facilitate our departure and hand off to London or would we be best to get straight onto London control to get the airways clearance?
Anyone have any tips on places to visit up north?
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Scotland
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Places to visit will be easier if you told us what you were flying . However, the kind of airport any GA pilot could get in to and worth visiting.
Kirkwall, Islay, Oban, Perth, Dornoch. all about an hour or so from Dundee (except Perth which is next door) depending on what you're flying.
That should be enough to get you started
. However, the kind of airport any GA pilot could get in to and worth visiting.Kirkwall, Islay, Oban, Perth, Dornoch. all about an hour or so from Dundee (except Perth which is next door) depending on what you're flying.
That should be enough to get you started
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How far from CAS will your be on departure? I would suggest contacting London Information ASAP after departure and request a joining clearance. They will then phone the appropriatte sector, obtain the clearance and squawk and pass said clearance to you and the appropriatte frequency to contact London Control. Just make sure your IFR flight plan is filed.
Look forward to speaking to you once up into God's country.
Look forward to speaking to you once up into God's country.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
London Area Control Centre(LACC) are unlikely to issue a clearance on the phone prior to departure as this will block a level which may be needed in what is very busy airspace for what is in effect an unknown amount of time, that is most unlikely to occur. Likewise the LACC sector ATCO will not want an unknown aircraft popping up on frequency, that will as popular as a fart in a space suit! The most likely scenario remains contact London FIR and go from there as once airbourne there is a tactictal situation which can be resolved normally in a straightforward manner, therfore a ROCAS remains the most likely option until LACC have you identified. As an ATCO at a regional airport we will issue and relay clearances from LACC for those aircraft operating from our airfield as we have the flight plan avaiable but refer those requests from transits, where we have no such information to London FIR. I supect this is pretty much SOP for most ATC units. 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 563
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but they do not have radar
So they can definitely see you under certain circumstances.
They also sit in the same room as the Center controllers.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One would not expect to get a clearance to enter CAS over the phone.
One would expect to be able to get the squawk and the contact frequency though - that is what one gets from one's local tower, or from London Info.
The whole business of departing for an IFR flight from a VFR-only airport carries certain problems, because you have to remain VFR/OCAS etc until you establish contact. A number of people have been killed during that phase of the flight. A couple of years ago, in Greece, I flew at low level for about 2hrs before I got through to anybody and by that time we were landing In the UK version, a delay of 20-30 mins waiting for London Info could keep you in icing conditions, collecting a nice amount of ice. As a result, there is a strategy involved which might be to depart in a certain direction (not necessarily at all the direction of the intended flight) while waiting for the clearance to enter CAS to come through.
One would expect to be able to get the squawk and the contact frequency though - that is what one gets from one's local tower, or from London Info.
The whole business of departing for an IFR flight from a VFR-only airport carries certain problems, because you have to remain VFR/OCAS etc until you establish contact. A number of people have been killed during that phase of the flight. A couple of years ago, in Greece, I flew at low level for about 2hrs before I got through to anybody and by that time we were landing
In the UK version, a delay of 20-30 mins waiting for London Info could keep you in icing conditions, collecting a nice amount of ice. As a result, there is a strategy involved which might be to depart in a certain direction (not necessarily at all the direction of the intended flight) while waiting for the clearance to enter CAS to come through.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 563
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the UK version, a delay of 20-30 mins waiting for London Info could keep you in icing conditions, collecting a nice amount of ice
Have you raised this issue with the Safety Board or whatever you guys have over there?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: My house
Posts: 1,339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We are departing from Tatenhill so in close proximity to east mids and the controlled airspace around TNT, where we plan to route into the airway. Would we be able to liaise with EMA and get a provisional service and squawk? Should we address the FP to EMA via the addressing section on Afpex?I am familiar with the airspace operating on commercial flights however, operating a SPA is very different especially departing with no clearance/atc.
The aircraft is a nicely equipped pa24-250 so very capable and we have 5 days to visit the north, wx dependant.
Thanks for your help.
The aircraft is a nicely equipped pa24-250 so very capable and we have 5 days to visit the north, wx dependant.
Thanks for your help.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: South East Asia
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Likewise the LACC sector ATCO will not want an unknown aircraft popping up on frequency
Also I wonder if London Control has a "clearance void time" concept supporting a clearance over the phone - or maybe this is a US-only thing...
Last edited by Hodja; 5th Mar 2012 at 12:21.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting - so you can't just report in with Control directly after take-off and get your clearance (even though they've got your flight plan), you actually have to get your squawk code first from a non-control unit like London Info before Control will entertain your request?
Or from some airport tower.
If one can telephone London Control and pick up a squawk and then call them up directly following a "farm strip" departure, that is super news but despite doing a fair bit of "airways" flight it would be the first time I have heard of it. If it works, when was it introduced?
Also I wonder if London Control has a "clearance void time" concept supporting a clearance over the phone - or maybe this is a US-only thing...
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Phone up east mids and tell them what you would like to do.
To be honest you might as well bang up the east coast up to St Abbs and not bother with airways. They will tend to point you towards foyle what ever you want or have planned if your heading north of the lowlands.
So St abbs then angus outside will do the trick for pretty much everything. As soon as your north of Manchester you will get plenty of LARS services and Newcastle are pretty good with crossing clearances once your north of there you can skirt round EDI not that they don't usually give a crossing clearance or go to Leuchars.
Going airways you are just going to be shoved west then have to come back east again.
To be honest you might as well bang up the east coast up to St Abbs and not bother with airways. They will tend to point you towards foyle what ever you want or have planned if your heading north of the lowlands.
So St abbs then angus outside will do the trick for pretty much everything. As soon as your north of Manchester you will get plenty of LARS services and Newcastle are pretty good with crossing clearances once your north of there you can skirt round EDI not that they don't usually give a crossing clearance or go to Leuchars.
Going airways you are just going to be shoved west then have to come back east again.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you might as well bang up the east coast
As an example, last week I went up to Coventry from the s. coast. Low level wx was very mucky and it would have been IMC all the way, in quite low temps. If you file full IFR, FL100, you are in sunshine all the way.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You not low level though for most of it once you get past Man.
They will always try and keep traffic away from the tay sector so it doesn't matter what you have put on your flight plan if you not going to dundee or ABZ you will get wanged over onto the west coast up the old W3D.
In theory you should be able to go up the N601 POL margo grice but you will get shoved off to foyle like it or not.
I presume the OP wants N57 then N601 airways?
It depends where he is going to be honest.
Actually looking at the chart even a route through foyle would be less out of the way than going up the east coast from EMA so disregard.
They will always try and keep traffic away from the tay sector so it doesn't matter what you have put on your flight plan if you not going to dundee or ABZ you will get wanged over onto the west coast up the old W3D.
In theory you should be able to go up the N601 POL margo grice but you will get shoved off to foyle like it or not.
I presume the OP wants N57 then N601 airways?
It depends where he is going to be honest.
Actually looking at the chart even a route through foyle would be less out of the way than going up the east coast from EMA so disregard.